Level 5 - Still Working in an office environment

ernestcooke91

So I just want an opinion.

I work for a medical company. Under current level 5 restrictions, this company is deemed as an essential service and are therefore still open (fair enough).

However, a large percentage of the people working there have office based jobs. I work as a software engineer in the R&D department. There is also other departments such as purchasing which are office based jobs.

We requested last March to work from home but our HR department refused to allow it.
We have been working in the office this whole time.

A number of months ago, we had an outbreak of cases and our whole department had to self isolate. We were allowed to work from home for the isolation period but were instructed to return immediately once our isolation period ended.

While I understand the importance of the company stating open I feel highly disappointed that non-essential staff have not been given permission to work from home and I feel it is an un-necessary risk given the fact that the company can do it when they were forced a number of months ago.

MattressRick

Unfortunately your company doesn't place any value on the health of its employees. My own employers are a small med tech company and (reluctantly) let us do it because they know they should, but we know they don't want us to and will drag us all back in to the office the first chance they get. Your employer really mustn't care about people's wellbeing and secondly are too ignorant to see that a widespread outbreak could shut the place down for weeks. I know you mightn't have options to move but you should job hunt if you can. Otherwise just keep changing your mask every few hours in work, don't touch your face in work unless your hands are clean, keep sanitiser at your desk and in your pocket for eating, making tea, coffee etc
Stay Safe!

ernestcooke91

Thanks very much for the reply. Your opinion is exactly the same as mines! I've been working for my company for over 7 years and I have enjoyed my job until recently. It's just the fact of knowing that the company simply doesn't seem to care about peoples well being is very disappointing.

The irony is that the company has a big contract for the NHS in Britain for Covid-19 testing and keeps stressing to us to do everything we can to prevent the spread of the virus while overlooking the fact that letting us WFH would make their own life a lot easier.

Saint_Mel

Interesting read. I work in IT in a med device company ... as soon as the 1st restrictions came last March we were all shipped out straight away and told to WFH until further notice. Some returned to the office during the summer but it was completely at their own request and after the place was restructured for (desks spaced out, 1-way system through building, sanitizer everywhere etc.)

In many ways I'd love to be back in the office but not even a hint of pressure to do so. There's more encouragement to stay WFH unless there's a real need to be onsite

shesty

That is mad! I left the office last March 12th and haven't been back (I have kids) .They closed their doors completely a week or so after that and have very firmly told us all don't come near the place. There is a very small handful in the office as they are trades and we have a facility based there....and it is an essential service but everyone else has been told not ot consider passing the gates of our office, or the others they have around the country. They were going to let people start coming back in September, but they pushed that out to March 2021 - I would guess it will be pushed out again now.


I admit at this point I would actually love to go to the office, just to get away from my house and maybe see some other people, but I have to just put up with it I guess. They had embraced remote working in the year before this happened, and I suspect it will now be very firmly embedded.

UsBus

I work for a med device company as well.
Worked from home from April to October last year. Didn't mind coming back onsite last year but my job is practically all desk based. Coming onsite this month has grated with me as the direction (rather than advice) has been to wfh unless it's not possible. I'm avoiding any contact with my parents currently due to being at work.

It will be interesting to see where the WFH legislation goes later this year. I have a feeling employers will be getting their legal departments in place to bury this. There has been a sense all along here that officially "You need to take Covid seriously and take all necessary precautions", but the underlying sentiment is lets keep people onsite to avoid any future issues with being out of the office..

I will certainly be reviewing my options when some level of normality returns.

leggo

Pretty sure the government has brought in legislation, even going beyond the pandemic, that employers must have bulletproof reasons for needing people to work on-site or they have to let you WFH if you request. And, if your company was able to function while you were WFH during the outbreak to begin with, they don’t have a leg to stand on. Worth looking into and taking to your manager with specifics to quote.

Mimon

I am partly office based but I've found any empty area to sit by myself. Where I should be sitting there is 30/40 people in a small enough area. There are now 2m between stations put and some people are not taking social distancing seriously.

Will be staying in the empty area until I'm told otherwise.

We were told last week that we can leave work when we have our work done so can get all the practical work done by 1:30/2pm and go home to do any paperwork on the work laptop. Sensible from my employer.

ernestcooke91

Thanks very much for all your thoughts and responses everyone. It's interesting to get everyone's opinion and how things are going in their own jobs.

So the reason officially that we were not given permission to work from home was that:
"the company needs to access commercially sensitive information, which means that working from home is not possible."

IMO, this just sounds like an excuse. What can be defined as commercially sensitive information?

Yamanoto

Mmm

ernestcooke91 wrote: »

Thanks very much for all your thoughts and responses everyone. It's interesting to get everyone's opinion and how things are going in their own jobs.

So the reason officially that we were not given permission to work from home was that:
"the company needs to access commercially sensitive information, which means that working from home is not possible."

IMO, this just sounds like an excuse. What can be defined as commercially sensitive information?

Has the HSA Return to Work Protocol been implemented in your workplace?

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/22829a-return-to-work-safely-protocol/#

If so, have Covid Reps appointed by your employer raised the matter with management?

It's utterly irresponsible of your employer to have you attend the workplace at this time if you're not essential workers. Even those deemed essential by the State are working from home where possible.

Though it's understandably tough for conscientious employees to do, I'd inform your manager that you intend to work from home, as you're abiding by overwhelming and unequivocal Govt advice to protect the health of yourself, your colleagues, family and friends.

If your employer has an issue with that, ask that HR put the precise basis for their objection to you in writing.

Sarn

ernestcooke91 wrote: »

Thanks very much for all your thoughts and responses everyone. It's interesting to get everyone's opinion and how things are going in their own jobs.

So the reason officially that we were not given permission to work from home was that:
"the company needs to access commercially sensitive information, which means that working from home is not possible."

IMO, this just sounds like an excuse. What can be defined as commercially sensitive information?

That excuse is total nonsense. Our workplace deals in highly commercially sensitive information and several hundred of us have all been working from home since last March. There was no culture of WFH before that but they’ve taken the health recommendations seriously.

ernestcooke91

Yamanoto wrote: »

Mmm

Has the HSA Return to Work Protocol been implemented in your workplace?

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/22829a-return-to-work-safely-protocol/#

If so, have Covid Reps appointed by your employer raised the matter with management?

It's utterly irresponsible of your employer to have you attend the workplace at this time if you're not essential workers. Even those deemed essential by the State are working from home where possible.

Though it's understandably tough for conscientious employees to do, I'd inform your manager that you intend to work from home, as you're abiding by overwhelming and unequivocal Govt advice to protect the health of yourself, your colleagues, family and friends.

If your employer has an issue with that, ask that HR put the precise basis for their objection to you in writing.

I'm actually unsure if the HSA Return to Work Protocol has been implemented at work but I've never heard anything about it. The factory never closed if that means anything.

No Covid Reps have been appointed by the employer.
We have informed our manager on a number of occasions previously that we would like to follow government advice to work from home. Our manager has informed HR and the above reason that commercially sensitive information has to be accessed that working from home is not possible.

sweet_trip

I wonder what the legal implications of this are.
For example if there is documented requests for work from home, documented concerns raised, risk assessments by your H&S rep and also the fact that the government are recommending WFH.


If there's an outbreak and you get covid from the workplace that may or may not give you long term health effects.



Would this not open up the employer to be legal liability?



I'd be documenting everything tbh.

Mrs OBumble

Yamanoto wrote: »

It's utterly irresponsible of your employer to have you attend the workplace at this time if you're not essential workers. Even those deemed essential by the State are working from home where possible

People at medical device companies are essential workers, for pretty obvious reasons. They have never been off work, so return to work protocols are irrelevant.

Individuals who do not realise the commercial sensitivity of information which they have access to are perhaps the most risky to have working off-site.

cml387

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

People at medical device companies are essential workers, for pretty obvious reasons. They have never been off work, so return to work protocols are irrelevant.

Individuals who do not realise the commercial sensitivity of information which they have access to are perhaps the most risky to have working off-site.

It is an IT failure if the company cannot set up secure links from home to the office. It's perfectly possible and our company do it.

XVII

If you are really working with commercially sensitive information, you should be signing NDA's at the start of your employment. Those usually cover everything, no matter where you are, at the office, luas or home. Moreover, company like ours, has added an extra NDA specifically for WFH. That's how the company covers itself in case of leaks and continues to follow government guidelines.

And yes, your IT should just set up proper VPN for remoting.

CruelCoin

ernestcooke91 wrote: »

While I understand the importance of the company stating open I feel highly disappointed that non-essential staff have not been given permission to work from home and I feel it is an un-necessary risk given the fact that the company can do it when they were forced a number of months ago.

Who determines who is essential in the business. You or management?

Either they need you to make money, or they don't. You're not batting for the "job stability" team methinks

If you're doing a job that can be done entirely at home, then fine, that should be helped, but I certainly wouldn't be trumpeting "I'm not essential" to my bosses.

ELM327

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

People at medical device companies are essential workers, for pretty obvious reasons. They have never been off work, so return to work protocols are irrelevant.

Individuals who do not realise the commercial sensitivity of information which they have access to are perhaps the most risky to have working off-site.

With the greatest of respect, this is bunkum.


I work in fintech and worked from home some days before this pandemic. Access to payment information, access to personal information, company information etc. All through secure VPN with 3 phase authentication.

ELM327

XVII wrote: »

If you are really working with commercially sensitive information, you should be signing NDA's at the start of your employment. Those usually cover everything, no matter where you are, at the office, luas or home. Moreover, company like ours, has added an extra NDA specifically for WFH. That's how the company covers itself in case of leaks and continues to follow government guidelines.

And yes, your IT should just set up proper VPN for remoting.

Yup, same for us

Yamanoto

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

People at medical device companies are essential workers, for pretty obvious reasons. They have never been off work, so return to work protocols are irrelevant.

Nope

The provisions in the Return to Work Safety Protocol must apply equally to workers who have remained in the workplace throughout the lockdown

markpb

CruelCoin wrote: »

Who determines who is essential in the business. You or management?

Either they need you to make money, or they don't. You're not batting for the "job stability" team methinks

If you're doing a job that can be done entirely at home, then fine, that should be helped, but I certainly wouldn't be trumpeting "I'm not essential" to my bosses.

Essential workers mean essential to the country, not the company, ie it is essential to the country that Eirgrid engineers keep working so we have a stable electricity supply for hospitals. That job is both essential and cannot be done from home.

Where some companies take the piss is by deciding that the company is essential therefore everyone is essential. I’ve heard first-hand of companies who produce, among lots of other things, medical equipment so they have decided that the entire company is essential and also ordered all their accountants to be present in the office every day since last March. Accountants might be useful people but there’s no reason to put more people at risk by bringing them into the office every day.

leggo

leggo wrote: »

Pretty sure the government has brought in legislation, even going beyond the pandemic, that employers must have bulletproof reasons for needing people to work on-site or they have to let you WFH if you request. And, if your company was able to function while you were WFH during the outbreak to begin with, they don’t have a leg to stand on. Worth looking into and taking to your manager with specifics to quote.

It's being talked about but not law.

AndrewJRenko

cml387 wrote: »

It is an IT failure if the company cannot set up secure links from home to the office. It's perfectly possible and our company do it.

ELM327 wrote: »

With the greatest of respect, this is bunkum.


I work in fintech and worked from home some days before this pandemic. Access to payment information, access to personal information, company information etc. All through secure VPN with 3 phase authentication.

The confidentiality issues with WFH aren't so much about the technology, as about the people. How do you secure your paperwork if you're working at the kitchen table in a houseshare? How do you keep the content of phone calls confidential if you're in a houseshare, or even living with a nosey, gossipy partner or sibling or older child?

There is no NDA that covers these situations.

Mrs OBumble

I would be very concerned about the commercial nous of anyone who thought that confidential information could be secured by technology alone.

There's no VPN in the would that can protect against housemates seeing your screen or hearing your conversation, or people who don't routinely lock their keyboard every time they step away from the computer.

beauf

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I would be very concerned about the commercial nous of anyone who thought that confidential information could be secured by technology alone.

There's no VPN in the would that can protect against housemates seeing your screen or hearing your conversation, or people who don't routinely lock their keyboard every time they step away from the computer.

You can set a timeout that's very short, that can't be changed by the user. Ours is 30 sec's.

However you could just take a photo of something on screen in the office, or send it to the printer. Being in an office is no guarantee of security.

If a company doesn't want to allow working from home they won't.

ELM327

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I would be very concerned about the commercial nous of anyone who thought that confidential information could be secured by technology alone.

There's no VPN in the would that can protect against housemates seeing your screen or hearing your conversation, or people who don't routinely lock their keyboard every time they step away from the computer.

The same way you stopped it before covid.

Howard Beale

I could easily work from home but am deemed an essential worker well the company is so have to go into the office. It's fine. I never wear the face nappies as I find them disgusting and unhygienic and my boss is fine with it, in fact he doesn't bother wearing his around me now and the company owner never said anything to me as he respects my decision not to wear one.
My reasons are my own.
Could never work from home anyway.

I kinda have my own corner of an office and left to do it with music on.

One serious pain for me is Brexit, I deal with the UK constantly and you wouldn't believe the shyte it causes for shipping and logistics.

Lockdown hasn't affected logistics/shipping as much as Brexit in my book.

AndrewJRenko

beauf wrote: »

You can set a timeout that's very short, that can't be changed by the user. Ours is 30 sec's.

However you could just take a photo of something on screen in the office, or send it to the printer. Being in an office is no guarantee of security.

If a company doesn't want to allow working from home they won't.

There's no guarantee, but there is a far higher chance of an employee being seen or noticed if they are up to something questionable. With WFH, there is zero chance.

ELM327 wrote: »

The same way you stopped it before covid.

Before Covid, you were in the same room as your employees, and you could see what they were up to. Their peers would also see what they were up to.

With WFH, you lose that direct supervision.

Lisa2011

ernestcooke91 wrote: »

So I just want an opinion.

I work for a medical company. Under current level 5 restrictions, this company is deemed as an essential service and are therefore still open (fair enough).

However, a large percentage of the people working there have office based jobs. I work as a software engineer in the R&D department. There is also other departments such as purchasing which are office based jobs.

We requested last March to work from home but our HR department refused to allow it.
We have been working in the office this whole time.

A number of months ago, we had an outbreak of cases and our whole department had to self isolate. We were allowed to work from home for the isolation period but were instructed to return immediately once our isolation period ended.

While I understand the importance of the company stating open I feel highly disappointed that non-essential staff have not been given permission to work from home and I feel it is an un-necessary risk given the fact that the company can do it when they were forced a number of months ago.

I understand where your coming from. Even if all staff are following guidelines outside work and nobody has covid , your employer still needs to follow guidelines.

If certain functions need to be done in the office only the staff in these functions should be there and socially distancing.

Everyone else can work from home. Its all about taking precautions just incase.

Laura2021

I'm going to be starting a job soon in a hospital was looking for a remote job but got offered this . I'm not sure if I should take it or not especially in a hospital where Covid is It would be more likely to catch it . Not sure what do it as it's a good job with good salary. Dont no why I wouldn't be able to work from home .

ELM327

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There's no guarantee, but there is a far higher chance of an employee being seen or noticed if they are up to something questionable. With WFH, there is zero chance.


Before Covid, you were in the same room as your employees, and you could see what they were up to. Their peers would also see what they were up to.

With WFH, you lose that direct supervision.

Speak for yourselves. We had WFH at will.

XVII

You must be quite delusional to believe that any direct visual supervision in the office gives any advantage. If someone going to plan to steal info, they can always find ways, unless your company is pentagon type of level.

ELM327

XVII wrote: »

You must be quite delusional to believe that any direct visual supervision in the office gives any advantage. If someone going to plan to steal info, they can always find ways, unless your company is pentagon type of level.

There's a couple of posters here who are old school middle managers, ie their job in their eyes is to micromanage a team of useless employees whose only contribution is to be physically present at their desk between 9-5.


Andrew and Mrs Bumble spring to mind initially but there are others.

Tazz T

Interestingly, I was called for an interview at a non-essential retail company (sportswear) well outside my 5km zone. I requested a remote interview (it's a job I currently freelance at from home and also non-essential) and was refused. It was made clear I had to break the restriction regulations to travel to interview and would be working onsite.

I turned it down, because that's not the company culture I want to be involved in, but this is a clear breach of the restriction law and there should be somewhere to report it.

People should not be commuting to non-essential work if they can work at home at Level 5. Given the level of traffic during rush hour, this would appear to be a far bigger issue than international travel.

beauf

Tazz T wrote: »

... Given the level of traffic during rush hour, this would appear to be a far bigger issue than international travel.

I dunno. It seems countries that lock down international travel completely. Seem to exit Lockdowns much faster and much more successful.

Most of our initial outbreaks all stemmed from outside travel. Then it was holiday travel (and shopping) that caused the latest outbreak at Xmas.

I suspect a lot of people have a very narrow circle of contacts during the normal working week, (unless you work in hospitality, retail things like that).

Lisa2011

Laura2021 wrote: »

I'm going to be starting a job soon in a hospital was looking for a remote job but got offered this . I'm not sure if I should take it or not especially in a hospital where Covid is It would be more likely to catch it . Not sure what do it as it's a good job with good salary. Dont no why I wouldn't be able to work from home .

I understand your concern. My cousin is a clerical officer in a hospital and so far she is fine. It depends on the Job your doing whether you can work from home or not.

My cousin hasn’t heard of anyone other than medical staff getting Covid.

Laura2021

Lisa2011 wrote: »

I understand your concern. My cousin is a clerical officer in a hospital and so far she is fine. It depends on the Job your doing whether you can work from home or not.

My cousin hasn’t heard of anyone other than medical staff getting Covid.

Yeah it's for a clerical position . Would still be concerned about picking it up in the hospital I will be down in the Xray department

Lisa2011

Laura2021 wrote: »

Yeah it's for a clerical position . Would still be concerned about picking it up in the hospital I will be down in the Xray department

Will you be dealing with the reception In X-ray or in an office? Raise concerns again. They need to address them so you know that they will do all they can to protect you. I worked in a temporary position between September and December snd I had no choice but to attend the office for training. Management were complying with all guidelines and there was never an outbreak and they ensured I was very safe. Maybe in time when your set up you might be able to do work from home.

All I know is that my cousin never worked from home and is fine.

AndrewJRenko

XVII wrote: »

You must be quite delusional to believe that any direct visual supervision in the office gives any advantage. If someone going to plan to steal info, they can always find ways, unless your company is pentagon type of level.

It's a bit tricky to take out your phone to photograph whatever is on the screen or on the papers on your desk in a shared office of five or ten people.

It's very easy to do this at home.

UsBus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

People at medical device companies are essential workers, for pretty obvious reasons. They have never been off work, so return to work protocols are irrelevant.
.

Large number of people back in the office of our medical device company this week and last. A good few are not wearing masks at all once they sit down. It's completely irresponsible of the company to have desk staff back onsite. No wonder the cases in Galway have remained on the high side. Am infuriated by the people around me not wearing face covering now. Management have not enforced this at all. It won't be forgotten how this has been handled

runawaybishop

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's a bit tricky to take out your phone to photograph whatever is on the screen or on the papers on your desk in a shared office of five or ten people.

It's very easy to do this at home.

You constantly bring up the most asinine reasons for banning WFH. Yourself and Mrs bumble appear to be from a culture of extremely poor management and security. Stop projecting these failings onto others. You haven't posted a single reason to ban WFH, just some minor security steps that need to be taken.

AndrewJRenko

runawaybishop wrote: »

You constantly bring up the most asinine reasons for banning WFH. Yourself and Mrs bumble appear to be from a culture of extremely poor management and security. Stop projecting these failings onto others. You haven't posted a single reason to ban WFH, just some minor security steps that need to be taken.

What minor security steps protect against employees taking photos of their screens at home?

I've no desire to ban WFH, and never suggested that it should be banned.

runawaybishop

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What minor security steps protect against employees taking photos of their screens at home?

I've no desire to ban WFH, and never suggested that it should be banned.

Your arguments are frivolous and ridiculous. Ban WFH because someone might take a pic. Listen to yourself.

You have consistently invented daft scenarios to 'prove' WFH isn't viable. All you have proven imo is that you work with a lot of people that should be fired.

AndrewJRenko

runawaybishop wrote: »

Your arguments are frivolous and ridiculous. Ban WFH because someone might take a pic. Listen to yourself.

You have consistently invented daft scenarios to 'prove' WFH isn't viable. All you have proven imo is that you work with a lot of people that should be fired.

For the second time, I never said anything about banning WFH.

Cluedo Monopoly

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's a bit tricky to take out your phone to photograph whatever is on the screen or on the papers on your desk in a shared office of five or ten people.

It's very easy to do this at home.

Christ you're making a fool of yourself in 2 separate threads on the same nonsense issue.

Away With The Fairies

UsBus wrote: »

Large number of people back in the office of our medical device company this week and last. A good few are not wearing masks at all once they sit down. It's completely irresponsible of the company to have desk staff back onsite. No wonder the cases in Galway have remained on the high side. Am infuriated by the people around me not wearing face covering now. Management have not enforced this at all. It won't be forgotten how this has been handled

That's because the official advice is if you can social distance, you're fine! So people think you don't need masks!

Aleece2020

Tazz T wrote: »

People should not be commuting to non-essential work if they can work at home at Level 5. Given the level of traffic during rush hour, this would appear to be a far bigger issue than international travel.

I would happily take WFH. Some people in the company I’m in are already WFH but there aren’t enough laptop kits to go around unfortunately.

Those laptop companies must be making a fortune though.

ernestcooke91

Hi,
It's been a while since I've been on this forum post.

Update:
So to the subject of interviews.

Over the last 2 weeks we've had 2 separate days of on-site interviews.

The interviews took place in our canteen all day (The desks were separated out for social distancing for multiple interviews at once). In total we had about 40 people on site for the first day and slightly less for the 2nd day of interviews.

This again to me seems like a slightly un-necessary risk to take in my opinion.

Quadrivium

ernestcooke91 wrote: »

So I just want an opinion.

I work for a medical company. Under current level 5 restrictions, this company is deemed as an essential service and are therefore still open (fair enough).

However, a large percentage of the people working there have office based jobs. I work as a software engineer in the R&D department. There is also other departments such as purchasing which are office based jobs.

We requested last March to work from home but our HR department refused to allow it.
We have been working in the office this whole time.

A number of months ago, we had an outbreak of cases and our whole department had to self isolate. We were allowed to work from home for the isolation period but were instructed to return immediately once our isolation period ended.

While I understand the importance of the company stating open I feel highly disappointed that non-essential staff have not been given permission to work from home and I feel it is an un-necessary risk given the fact that the company can do it when they were forced a number of months ago.

Don't worry too much, the risk is minimal. Covid has a survival rate of 99.8% and more like 100% if you're under 65 with no chronic illness. Get on with your job and be very grateful you still have a workplace to go to, there are currently 600,000 people on the PUP who would take your place in a heart beat.

oopsies

Yep. Been in the office the whole way through. We could easily work from home but as we are an essential business our owner says we all have to be here, regardless of the role.

We all know its ridiculous and unnecessary, but my partner is on PUP so complaining about working conditions might be more hassle than I need!