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Speedmaster, January Sales??
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26-12-2020 3:07pm#1
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You mightn't be pissing on my chips, but you're definitely telling people others chips smell like piss.
Yes I am, dont think that is in question. And the problem is its not the smell. Smells great, its only once you pay your money and bring your bag of chips and get them home you realise..."thats not vinegar I am tasting"I think it's a beautiful timepiece with loads of function and a great motor behind it. I find mine accurate and incredibly comfortable even working under sweaty awkward conditions on the original bracelet and on a leather or nato strap. When the light hits that dial and you get those lovey shallow shadows, it's gorgeous. When you're taking it off for a clean, it's beautiful looking at the insides, which is something you'll never get on an OG Rolex.
The moon connection is also, at the end of the day, very very cool. It was integral to so much space flight over the past 60-70 years. It, and it's modern counterparts are still used by a lot of people working in this field. And that's personal experience.
Going back to your first post - do I want a Rolex? Sure, I'd love a new Sub with date, a new Pepsi GMT and a new President. But I wouldn't sell my Speedmaster for any of them, nor the current hassle of getting them.
I am glad you like your sapphire sandwich and the motor within.
Obviously you got a display back SS unlike the OG flight qualified moonwatch. Hope you didnt get the automatic....that wont work in zero gravity very well
And its still not waterproof.
Some people do seem to love a moonwatch and its many many many modern, non space fairing, editions and variants. I just really dont, and I tired, I really really tried. Still have the callous on my wrist and fingers to prove it.
This is an inherently subjective hobby as it deals with the aesthetic, and these watches are fairly useless as actual tools or instruments. Never take offence at somebody having a different opinion. But I do feel the need to put this opinion out there, as mine is widely held but seldom articulated. There is a saccharine fawning over the speed master online that I totally bought into, and then when I got one I was severely disappointed. (I have had 3 speed masters (racing, moon and dark side), and none lasted more than a few months, DSOTM was buy a long way the best one IMHO). When I bothered to research my issues with the watch rather than try to reinforce my preconceived purchasing decisions I found that a load of people have the same issues.
I see you lurking there Shutup, you havent posted on the forum in months and months except to take snips at me and thank any post that takes a contrarian view to mine. Do you want to add anything to the conversation?0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59144
As others have noted, don't buy new. I'd say that for pretty much all Swiss brands, save for Rolex and I'd not buy one of them because in my humble an overpriced mid range watch has become vastly and artificiality overpriced. As Fitz noted the model change has played silly buggers in the minds of collectors, who are already nuts
and easily led, so wait for a time until that eases up.
I'd personally avoid any special/limited editions unless going cheap as unless a run is a 1000 examples or better yet a few 100 then they're not exactly limited.
Try one on if you can. These watches in particular seem to fit some wrists better than others. I've a small wrist and the one I had fitted fine, but others with bigger wrists can find them uncomfortable. It seems to be a very personal thing. I had mine for a while ages ago. I sold it on because A) I got double what I paid(the 30 year anniversary of Apollo 11 revved up prices) and
turns out I don't like three register chronos of any kind(and think a chrono should have a rotating bezel and be a flyback if it's to be a "true" toolwatch). I do like the Dark Side Speedy mind you. Two register FTW. Though tbh reason A was more in play at the time.
I'd still have the Speedy on the shortlist of "best watches to buy" particularly for those who aren't full on watch collectors, who tend to be more into change on the regular.
The NASA link is over egged by Omega, but it is still pretty cool. And automatic movements work fine in microgravity. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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And automatic movements work fine in microgravity.
They work, but not fine, totally reliant on inertia, and only movements powerful enough to overcome the rotors inertia will wind the spring, a lot less efficient than in gravity where the rotors mass mass is drawn to move under gravity and reposition itself perpendicular to it. Most automatic moon watches are uni driectional to boot halfling potential to store energy...unlikely to keep it going unless your chopping down space trees.
"best watches to buy" particularly for those who aren't full on watch collectors....going to have to beg to differ there Wibbs. In classic guise a hand wound, non waterproof, non cosc/metas chrono, with hessalite is the kind of watch you would want to know is a high maintenance old girl. I would only recommend it to somebody with a half dozen other watches, who wants it as a curio rather than to wear.Rootsblower wrote: »Here Here. Lots of snobbery in the watch world.
Rootsblower...snobbery in the luxury watch market (thats where a 4-5k speedmaster is) is not necessarily a bad thing. It shows a respect and appreciation for the artform, and an ability to discern subtle and often abstract differences, appreciate craftmanship and understand a watches position in the history of watches. . Often snobs are perceived where there is a knowledge asymmetry or an experiance asymmetry. Reverse snobbery is worse as it stifles people ability to critically think about watches and leads to the most dangerous phrase in all of watch collecting...."Buy what you like"....my reasoning on that is far to boring for this thread, maybe I will start a unpopular watch opinions thread, they are always fun.0 -
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Would tend to agree here with most of the sentiments.
Omega to me, would not have the brand cache it does without the spaceflight element.
I love the heritage of the Speedmaster, but as much from the fact that it stems from a motorsport tool as the later space associations.
But for any brand, it depends on whether the brand and its heritage mean anything to you.
To me, TAG Heuer is the motorsport timepiece maker. Omega is the space watch maker. Breitling is the cockpit chrono maker.
Rolex has no brand value to me at all. It makes some fine watches, but none that mean much to me. As a complete petrol head, the fact that Steve McQueen wore a Daytona means less than the fact that he gifted his race mechanic a Tag Monaco.
It all depends on what it means to you.
The Speedmaster rabbit hole is a deep one, with some dark corners where it can get boring and pedantic. Sound familiar?
I do rankle at the fact that certain pieces, from whatever brand, must be part of any serious collector's collection. Well that's bull****.
The whole point of a collection is to have things that mean something to you. That's the difference between being a collector and a curator.
I could happily live my watch wearing life without ever having a Rolex, Patek Phillipe, Audemars Piguet, and several other high-end brands, as they have no appeal to me personally. I can appreciate other people's pursuit, preservation and appreciation of them, but that's it. A good mate has a Hulk Sub and a Monaco, both of which I have tried, but they mean nothing to me and I'd trade either for my own vintage SPro Mark II.
It's about what you love.
So, to the OP, if you want a Speedie, go for it, but there are a few second hand marks that will lose nothing in owning them for a year. Get a full set and enjoy. If you like it, keep it. If you don't flip it - you really can't lose. Unless you fall so far in love that you start lusting uncontrollably after something rare, like an original Ed White or a 50s broad arrow - in which case, you're rightly fecked! 0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
A certain Colonel Pogue noted his Seiko auto worked fine and he couldn't recall needing manual winding in 80 days on Skylab, so...They work, but not fine, totally reliant on inertia, and only movements powerful enough to overcome the rotors inertia will wind the spring, a lot less efficient than in gravity where the rotors mass mass is drawn to move under gravity and reposition itself perpendicular to it. Most automatic moon watches are uni driectional to boot halfling potential to store energy...unlikely to keep it going unless your chopping down space trees.
I would certainly differ here. I'd also recommend a Patek Calatrava and they're mostly hand wound and about as waterproof as a teabag. The Speedy IIRC is 30m(?) water resistant. I'd certainly not go swimming with one, but otherwise hardly an issue. If I were to go swimming(never get outa the boat!"best watches to buy" particularly for those who aren't full on watch collectors....going to have to beg to differ there Wibbs. In classic guise a hand wound, non waterproof, non cosc/metas chrono, with hessalite is the kind of watch you would want to know is a high maintenance old girl. I would only recommend it to somebody with a half dozen other watches, who wants it as a curio rather than to wear.) with a watch I'd not do so unless it was rated 100m or more. An acrylic crystal is arguably less work and easier to polish if it becomes scratched over time. The movements are solid and can last years of abuse, though since they went co axial I suspect that's changed? The COSC stuff is more about internal bragging rights and marketing than anything and requires servicing to keep it. Never mind a 20 quid Argos quartz will blow it out of the water. A client of mine has a Speedy he got as a wedding pressie in the 80's and it's his daily wearer and it wears the years. He got it serviced about ten years ago.
It really doesn't Fitz. It's almost entirely marketing on the back of the mechanical revival started in the 80's that really took off in 90's and the noughties. A Speedy today is well over four times the actual price it was when blokes were walking on the moon when adjusting for inflation, wages etc. Ditto for Rolex, Zenith et al. Hell one year Zenith just upped the prices of all their current range, just cos. As for history and a model's position, again almost entirely marketing. Listening to the average watch youtuber and bloggist around the current market they pretty much all buy into brand/dealer "histories" and frankly haven't a blind bog about the actual histories and simply regurgitate press releases or internet "truths". IE that dealer chap in Belfast who was linked here a while back. I like him, he's very watchable, but my god the horological howlers he comes out with are legion. Then again he knows his market and that market likes to be reassured around their own beliefs, especially when forking out for a luxury good, where perceived value and especially these days "authenticity" is king. He wouldn't be much of a dealer if he didn't play into that.Rootsblower...snobbery in the luxury watch market (thats where a 4-5k speedmaster is) is not necessarily a bad thing. It shows a respect and appreciation for the artform, and an ability to discern subtle and often abstract differences, appreciate craftmanship and understand a watches position in the history of watches.
Critical thinking is lacking in both directions of snobbery. It's kinda a feature of it. Plus it entirely depends on why someone is buying something. So your average man or woman buying a car for work and leisure has a very different angle than will be found on a car forum.Often snobs are perceived where there is a knowledge asymmetry or an experiance asymmetry. Reverse snobbery is worse as it stifles people ability to critically think about watches and leads to the most dangerous phrase in all of watch collecting...."Buy what you like"....my reasoning on that is far to boring for this thread, maybe I will start a unpopular watch opinions thread, they are always fun.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Even that was a "product placement" of sorts by Jack Heuer.Lorddrakul wrote: »Rolex has no brand value to me at all. It makes some fine watches, but none that mean much to me. As a complete petrol head, the fact that Steve McQueen wore a Daytona means less than the fact that he gifted his race mechanic a Tag Monaco. The Daytona is a good example of marketing versus horology. There's a reason 60's examples are rare. They were very lacklustre in sales(outside of Europe Heuers were similar. Hence Jack pushing for the US market, even trying to shift units on the back of cigarettes). They were seen as clunky looking with a bought in movement and it wasn't until the tail end of the 90's where they started to get any attention. Until the mid 60's Rolex were almost entirely a UK and her commonwealth brand. A huge print marketing campaign in the 60's 70's and 80's in the US and beyond changed that and it has to be said and acknowledged Rolex are giants of marketing(Not just in the watch world either) and have been since the very start and have never put a foot wrong throughout. If they were to be judged on horological innovation alone... Well, I can't actually think of a major Swiss brand that innovated less. The addition of a day wheel to the date and the helium release valve in partnership with Omega. End. Fin. That's your lot. Omega have innovated significantly more times in their history. Including the first specifically designed divers watch. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Rootsblower wrote: »Of course you should “Buy what you like”
Why in gods name would you buy a watch you didn’t like be it for a €100 or €10000 just cos someone else tells you you should like it.
I’ve always gone with buying what I liked and my little collection keeps me happy. I have some expensive pieces and some not so expensive pieces but I like them all. To me that’s all that matters.
You defiantly should physically buy what you like....but its the phrase "buy what you like" as the bookend to any watch conversation and a way to dismiss any valid criticism I have an issue with.
The world and the magic of it is in the minutiae and the little details. Just telling somebody to "buy what you like" is the laziest and most dismissive thing you can say. It take no effort, you need not have any actual knowledge or experiance of the topic. And the recipient of this super bit of advice will just use it as confirmation bias.
You can simply tell people what they want to hear, its super easy, you appear to be super considerate and all loving without any heirs and graces.....but often the shill uses these words to sell their tatt, often people mistake buying what they like as buying what is good. People who are confirming their own bias spout it out, and anyone with a different view is seen as a snob (in the negative connotation of the word), and their point of view dismissed as such despite their experiance of knowledge (that really is actual snobby when you think about it).
This buy what you like advice is no advice at all, its the actual opposite of advice. Its very similar to "make America great again" and brexits "we are all sick of experts"....its makes sense but only on the most superficial levels and to the most superficial of thinkers.
Wibbs I dont know how you would know is a seiko pogue was keeping time dont they operate at +/- a couple of hours a day ? To try separate luxury watches (and its luxury |I am talking about here, you will notice I steer clear of non luxury "my humble collection" watch conversations with these thoughts) and a certain amount of snobbery is to miss the point. Our friend at timeless watch channel puts it well (listen to what he says not the fact he is wearing glasses indoors)
https://youtu.be/IpyvwjjAfdo0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Wut? Eh.... no. I do hope you're joking.Wibbs I dont know how you would know is a seiko pogue was keeping time dont they operate at +/- a couple of hours a day? The two I had(blue and gold dial versions) were bang on the money or a few seconds a day either way and lord knows when they had been serviced. Cool little watches actually with one of the first auto chronos and column wheel with 21 jewels(and arguably more efficient in auto winding), but way overvalued these days with loads of fakes hailing from the Philippines of all places.
I'd agree with that. If you're into the whole luxury thing then it is what it is. Just like if you're into the Seiko diver thing, or the vintage thing or 80's digitals, or luxury G-Shocks, or whatever. It is what it is. Very different areas indeed and there is almost zero overlap. Among collectors anyway, there certainly can be overlap with dealers latterly with the usual attendant BS(QV Hodinkee).To try separate luxury watches (and its luxury |I am talking about here, you will notice I steer clear of non luxury watch conversations with these thoughts) and a certain amount of snobbery is to miss the point.Our friend at timeless watch channel puts it well (listen to what he says not the fact he is wearing glasses indoors)
https://youtu.be/IpyvwjjAfdo
Well he does kick off with wine snobbery and well, it's actually an interesting angle, though not necessarily in the way he might want. Plus anyone and I mean anyone who when a guest in someone's gaff refuses an offered glass of wine because of some nebulous notion of wine expertise and "respect" is a 24 carat pseud. I would bet the farm, or indeed the vineyard, that unless he's one of the very rare super tasters/smellers in a blind taste test he'd be right up the creek without a paddle(even if he were a super taster). Oh and very good wine can give you one helluva hangover. And don't get me started on art, or at least the current art market, where value in both art and price is almost entirely down to the dealers. We're not talking about Matisse and the like(always rated him ahead of Picasso, but I digress).
And again he's one of these chaps who is very much buying into the marque/dealer hype. I'd give two hoots about whether an AD had sawdust on the floor as he put it. It would be about the watch and backup for it should things go wrong. I'm not buying the buying experience, I'm buying the item. The business class thing isn't such a great comparison as upgrading is quite simply a better product. It "tells the time" better. Now granted I would be more of an iconoclast so there's that. Plus I'd have zero issue with someone like him getting off on that "luxury experience". Whatever floats your boat and good luck to you would be my general take on that and life in general.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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And as planned Wibbs you are the exception that proves my points. I have no doubt you would not spend 4-5k on a moonwatch that bears little resemblance to the watch that went to the moon, nor put much stock in a tenuous link to space exploration. And if you were to you would want to be told all the details of the watch....not that John Glen once had a epic **** with one on, but the realities of ownership.
Funny was having a chat last night with a forum regular, and we discussed the same thing. We all think we are such unique flowers, with unique tastes and desires. But at the end of the day, most of us fall into a few categories. And given equal opportunities we make the same decisions.
Rootblower, buy what you like, but only if you know what you like. You only know what you like with experiance, and if you want to avoid some expensive misfires (good god I have had so so many, I could have a moonwatch with the money I have lost on ill judged watches, where I was warned by people but choose to ignore cause I knew better).
896bet - yes the sub is not the most interesting. I just got one, and honestly Its not my favourite watch. Why did I get one.....truth is cause its for the wife she love to wear a sub (women dont want women's watches anymore, its a power play to wear a mans watch), and the Tudor didn't tickly the luxury glands like she wanted it to (but she wants to keep that too
). You might give out that she is spoiled, and you would be right. But being married to a watch enthusiast afford me a lot of scope to indulge my own desires. Also 10 grand in a sub is ten grand in the bank...and if "da bupple" bursts its 9 grand in the bank. Lads think nothing of having a 60 grand car that looses 10k a year, its basically free watches. Having said that, If somebody came on asking about one, I would have to tell them....look its not the most interesting watch, most advanced watch and the design is so ubiquitous to not going to make you stand out. But its a risk free endeavour. Can say the same for a moonwatch. 0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
That depending on price range would be pretty much my list of "good watches" if a civilian were to ask me.When I see a collection with a sub, a speedmaster, a seiko 5 and a tag Monaco I tend to nod off personally. Though I'd currently advise caution with any sport Rolex, though as Fitz notes even if they drop in value and they will, it's probably not going to be a sudden deflation and even if they tanked it would still be more financial sense than any mid level luxury car. I'd add a Patek calatrava or Cartier Tank to the mix and swap out the Seiko 5 for one of their better divers and a G-Shock of course. Why that list? Because underwhelming or no, they've all stood the test of time in style and cache recognition. I'd defo add in Sinn for the more discerning.
I'm really not, or at least in the vintage area. Latterly there has been some of the luxury watch guys getting involved in that, but they're a small minority and don't tend to last long, because the price of entry is more about knowledge to the point of obsession.And as planned Wibbs you are the exception that proves my points. I know one guy with two Milsubs. Two of the buggers. As you do. Now he got them when prices were lower, but IIRC he paid 30 odd grand for one and 40 plus for the second(different references I gather with different military backgrounds). They're probably worth half a mill now for the pair as prices have gone nuts. His big passion? Early G-Shocks. He got one on the Bay for 500 quid that may be a preproduction model. Him. After the auction finished. 
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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