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Ireland u20 6 nations and world championship 2021

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    It’s little mistakes like that McKee that you just don’t see England making…


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,768 ✭✭✭✭Utopia Parkway


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Thats that. We've been sabotaging ourselves again and again in this game. You cant do that and expect to win.

    Made some very basic errors to gift scores in this game. Especially since half time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Made some very basic errors to gift scores in this game. Especially since half time.

    Yeah we never fired a shot after the try when we should have been looking to be all over them. Their kick on the full should have been a momentum swing and we should have capitalised. Instead we hand them the momentum right back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭bluedex


    Genuine question, what was the scrum penalty for? Is it not allowed go backwards as long as everyone stays bound and legal?

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    bluedex wrote: »
    Genuine question, what was the scrum penalty for? Is it not allowed go backwards as long as everyone stays bound and legal?

    I was wondering the same myself. Did one of the back row break their bind maybe?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Has there been a gap in any of today's line outs?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    I would just tap n go here, I don’t trust us in the lineout today, it’s a complete crap shoot the lineout.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭bluedex


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Has there been a gap in any of today's line outs?

    No, it's been a terrible, messy game, inconsistent officiating. England definitely not more skillful than Ireland, they are bigger and Ireland made too many errors.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Commentator talking about a sub's pristine white shirt on a plastic pitch


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,872 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    They didn't lack for effort. Great bunch of lads!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,041 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Commentator talking about a sub's pristine white shirt on a plastic pitch
    Think he was noticing the lack of blood


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,914 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Lots of regrets there for the lads. Too many mistakes at key moments. Lots to look forward to with them though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    Congrats England you won you’re cup final, you can go back to being **** again next week as usual.

    Hope England don’t think this is good rugby for their players long term development…


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Mimon


    In terms of overall championship the sensible thing would have been to kick the penalty at the end to get a BP?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    UAEguy2020 wrote: »
    Congrats England you won you’re cup final, you can go back to being **** again next week as usual.

    Hope England don’t think this is good rugby for their players long term development…

    Christ you're bitter. Better team won, kids will take their learnings into their (hopefully) long careers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,914 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Christ you're bitter. Better team won, kids will take their learnings into their (hopefully) long careers.

    The mess up at the end showed just how young they are. Should be remembered. This is their learning curve and all seems god to me anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Shame the backs couldn't really get into the game but that's what the English MO is all about. Also, shame they didn't see red, shame we gifted them two tries, shame Kendellen and McCormack went off, shame about the miscommunication at the end... one of those games!

    But a good few positives from that. Most impressed by how we matched their power until the second half. We stopped 3 5-yard mauls at the end of the first half, while down to 14, which is insane.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Well beaten. It's a great experience for them though! They played a huge outfit and gave a good effort. I wonder if the 6 day turnaround will affect the team going forward. We had quite a few injuries and head Knocks.
    When the camera zoomed in for the set pieces, the size difference was noticeable. 10 in a row, mind you. Not a bad stretch. Plenty of positive things learned from this. Not least of all, is the importance of discipline. Murphy will have his work cut out fixing that!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 117 ✭✭Juventu4


    Overall not bad considering were missing Joe McCarthy, Tom Stewart and Darragh Murray who would have gave us bit more grunt/power to the pack. Ireland had to make do with 2 blindsides in the second row.

    PS England are huge, thought it was just the white jerseys but when you get a close up of the scrum or lineout you see a difference, I take the English are in a professional set up younger and that's why they are more bulked up?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    An important question that needs to be asked is why do England only do this to us? Because even Scotland last week who have a u19 squad didn’t get demolished this badly last week and it’s the same with our senior team. It’s like other countries look for ways to counter this power game yet for us it’s just like we say “ah sure” and don’t even bother to find ways to counter the power, I watch Ireland against England in 2019 (x2) 2020 (x2) and even today they are all carbon copies of each other.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 117 ✭✭Juventu4


    UAEguy2020 wrote: »
    An important question that needs to be asked is why do England only do this to us? Because even Scotland last week who have a u19 squad didn’t get demolished this badly last week and it’s the same with our senior team. It’s like other countries look for ways to counter this power game yet for us it’s just like we say “ah sure” and don’t even bother to find ways to counter the power, I watch Ireland against England in 2019 (x2) 2020 (x2) and even today they are all carbon copies of each other.

    Youre 100% right, England looked really comfortable in defense smashing our lads with dominant tackles forcing turnovers or mistakes. We continually play one out runners in the middle of the field 6M each side of the ruck to get smashed in double tackles.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,966 ✭✭✭TRC10


    UAEguy2020 wrote: »
    An important question that needs to be asked is why do England only do this to us? Because even Scotland last week who have a u19 squad didn’t get demolished this badly last week and it’s the same with our senior team. It’s like other countries look for ways to counter this power game yet for us it’s just like we say “ah sure” and don’t even bother to find ways to counter the power, I watch Ireland against England in 2019 (x2) 2020 (x2) and even today they are all carbon copies of each other.

    Completely agree. I've been asking myself the same question since February 2019. It's the rugby equivalent of banging your head against a brick wall and expecting it to break.

    In the 2nd half when we opened up a bit and started playing out the back, we actually made inroads and caused them problems.

    There's always space on a rugby field, the trick is to be able to find it. We find where there is the least space and run into it time and time again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,872 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    TRC10 wrote: »
    Completely agree. I've been asking myself the same question since February 2019. It's the rugby equivalent of banging your head against a brick wall and expecting it to break.

    In the 2nd half when we opened up a bit and started playing out the back, we actually made inroads and caused them problems.

    There's always space on a rugby field, the trick is to be able to find it. We find where there is the least space and run into it time and time again.

    That's right our provincial teams, due to their ability to "find space", would easily find a way around the huge teams...oh wait..no.

    And the size difference between the Irish/English U20 team would probably be more pronounced.

    So I think we need to give the Irish team a little credit here, they made a great effort under some serious pressure. As someone said previously, this type of game will stand to them in the long run.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,966 ✭✭✭TRC10


    That's right our provincial teams, due to their ability to "find space", would easily find a way around the huge teams...oh wait..no.

    And the size difference between the Irish/English U20 team would probably be more pronounced.

    So I think we need to give the Irish team a little credit here, they made a great effort under some serious pressure. As someone said previously, this type of game will stand to them in the long run.

    When Irish teams play intelligently and attack space, we do beat bigger teams, regularly.

    Ireland were dominated by England twice in 2019 and twice in 2020 by playing one dimensional, route one rugby right into their hands.

    Yet low and behold, in 2021, when we play with tempo, shift the point of contact and attack space between defenders, we beat them.

    We comfortably beat England's u20s last year by playing much more wide expansive rugby.

    English players aren't man-for-man better rugby players than us, they're just bigger. And we play into their hands time and time again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Number 137


    I thought the standard of officiating was shocking in that game. I usually defend referees, but Adam Jones has no business refereeing at this level currently. His refereeing of the breakdown was laughable. English players constantly landing on the wrong side and taking a second or two longer than necessary to roll away. Once it was tolerated the first two or three times, England knew they would have a field day. That contributed to our slow, scrappy ball.

    The YC for Cosgrave was a very poor call, though the AR was responsible for that call. It was marginal at best, as an AR you want to pick up the clear and obvious. The added consequence of the YC exacerbated the appalling nature of the call. There were far more obvious offsides not picked up against both sides in the game.

    The Merigan tackle was absolutely a red card for me. There is an argument that Kendellen dipped, but for me Merigan is never performing a legal action. There is direct head contact, aggravated by leading with his shoulder. It's not a legitimate tackle. In those scenarios, mitigation is irrelevant.

    I fully appreciate Jones is a work in progress, but he also refereed Leicester v Connacht in the Challenge Cup QF and he was way out of his depth. Hopefully for him he'll improve, but I'm not convinced.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 42,445 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I actually thought the reffing was very good myself.

    His decisions were consistent, good engagements clear and concise. All cards were warranted. Kernohan was warned previously about the back line being offside and by the time cosgrave was carded that was the fourth similar offense in the first 35 mins.
    The breakdown was fine, England were more powerful and that's why the ruck's were a bit of a mess, but saying that he was quick to call ruck and didn't allow any second man over that other refs have been allowing for the last couple of years. Any contentious decisions were 50/50 at best.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    That's right our provincial teams, due to their ability to "find space", would easily find a way around the huge teams...oh wait..no.

    And the size difference between the Irish/English U20 team would probably be more pronounced.

    So I think we need to give the Irish team a little credit here, they made a great effort under some serious pressure. As someone said previously, this type of game will stand to them in the long run.

    We don’t lose to bigger teams due to our lack of size, we lose because we left our brain in the dressing room and just fall right into the English teams trap. Scotland & Wales don’t get absolutely man handled the way we do on a regular basis so size clearly isn’t the only factor in all this. That Scotland pack that this Irish u20 pack was on top of in round 1 was more than able to compete with that English pack in round 2 yet when it comes to yesterday we get beaten up.

    Look at the Irish u20s the previous 2 years, they used their brain against a huge English pack and ads result didn’t get manhandled yet yesterday our u20s took inspiration from the senior team and just kept running into brick walls.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    And when you look at all those losses against England just look at what the Irish players do, it’s just crash ball one after another taking the ball flat into contact and then England just double team the Irish player time and time again, England will deal with that stuff all day long, there isnt a whole lot of innovative thought in the heads of the English players, they are programmed to do one thing only and that’s smash the first man time and time again so going into contact first thing every time from a flat pass makes no sense whatsoever and to keep doing it is the definition of insanity. You can talk about the size all you want but look at the previous u20 sides and the way they attacked England in possession, you can honestly say that it was any way similar to yesterday…


    On a side note I hope the English coaching staff show other parts of their game in the rest of the 6N as this one dimensional, soulless rugby they get their underage teams to play isn’t good for the players development long term and I would worry for the future of English rugby if that’s all they have planned.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,979 ✭✭✭connachta


    Of course we lose over bigger teams because lack of size.
    Just like Connacht vs English teams.

    That's not as we, somtimes, over-compensate with smart play that size ceases to be the issue

    It'd be just like saying you just have to score tries when your kicker is not reliable. It may work at times, but the main problem remains


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    connachta wrote: »
    Of course we lose over bigger teams because lack of size.
    Just like Connacht vs English teams.

    That's not as we, somtimes, over-compensate with smart play that size ceases to be the issue

    It'd be just like saying you just have to score tries when your kicker is not reliable. It may work at times, but the main problem remains

    We lose because we get into a mud pit with a pig.

    The question is why are we trying to play England at their own game when we know it almost always ends with us getting man handled? Why didn’t our 2019 & 2020 u20s get man handled or did our 2021 senior team? Because they didn’t play this route one one out runners rugby.

    If it’s the size that’s an issue why does it only seem to happen to us on a regular basis?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    Ah come on, give the English team a bit of credit last night. They beat us well, but incredible spirit by the lads to have been in the hunt in the last 5. Pity we didn’t nail the conversion to set up a 7 point game.

    There’s a simple reason why England beat us in 2019 and 2020. They were a much better team. And a good team shuts down the opposition making them look ordinary. We’ve made plenty of teams look like that ourselves over the years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,979 ✭✭✭connachta


    Happened to France too, even if bigger than us


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    clsmooth wrote: »
    Ah come on, give the English team a bit of credit last night. They beat us well, but incredible spirit by the lads to have been in the hunt in the last 5. Pity we didn’t nail the conversion to set up a 7 point game.

    There’s a simple reason why England beat us in 2019 and 2020. They were a much better team. And a good team shuts down the opposition making them look ordinary. We’ve made plenty of teams look like that ourselves over the years.

    They beat us well because we played right into their hands just like we always do. I always wonder do Irish teams even prepare for these games before hand because it doesn’t appear any lessons are being learnt after every loss and I don’t see other teams get beat up this badly on a regular occurrence so clearly we are doing something wrong.

    Why don’t Scotland & Wales get beaten up the same way then? Our pack comparison was similar in 2017-2018 & 2021 yet we didn’t get man handled the same way. I’m still searching what was our game plan to counter this power, was the plan seriously just to take the ball standing still into contact and expect that to be enough…the English must love playing us as we are the only rugby nation that stupider than they are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,872 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Number 137 wrote: »
    I thought the standard of officiating was shocking in that game. I usually defend referees, but Adam Jones has no business refereeing at this level currently. His refereeing of the breakdown was laughable. English players constantly landing on the wrong side and taking a second or two longer than necessary to roll away. Once it was tolerated the first two or three times, England knew they would have a field day. That contributed to our slow, scrappy ball.

    The YC for Cosgrave was a very poor call, though the AR was responsible for that call. It was marginal at best, as an AR you want to pick up the clear and obvious. The added consequence of the YC exacerbated the appalling nature of the call. There were far more obvious offsides not picked up against both sides in the game.

    The Merigan tackle was absolutely a red card for me. There is an argument that Kendellen dipped, but for me Merigan is never performing a legal action. There is direct head contact, aggravated by leading with his shoulder. It's not a legitimate tackle. In those scenarios, mitigation is irrelevant.

    I fully appreciate Jones is a work in progress, but he also refereed Leicester v Connacht in the Challenge Cup QF and he was way out of his depth. Hopefully for him he'll improve, but I'm not convinced.

    I agree, he was only reffing one team at the breakdown. I made that point last night after the tenth time an English player blocked our 9.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,872 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    TRC10 wrote: »
    When Irish teams play intelligently and attack space, we do beat bigger teams, regularly.

    Ireland were dominated by England twice in 2019 and twice in 2020 by playing one dimensional, route one rugby right into their hands.

    Yet low and behold, in 2021, when we play with tempo, shift the point of contact and attack space between defenders, we beat them.

    We comfortably beat England's u20s last year by playing much more wide expansive rugby.

    English players aren't man-for-man better rugby players than us, they're just bigger. And we play into their hands time and time again.

    Your posts are so 1 dimensional. You go on about finding space etc. You completely ignore the damage the English team did to us in defense.

    The fact of the matter is, that team kicked contestables and beat the living **** out of our team while also setting up camp in our half.

    Simple game plan if you have the power to back it up.

    It's very hard to tire out a team playing that game plan, first, because you really need to kick back, not attack out of your own 22 and second because of the amount of touch finders, the ball is not in play for very long.

    On top of that, you think in terms of big vs small nimble. The England team were big, they were fit and played well to their game plan.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    clsmooth wrote: »
    There’s a simple reason why England beat us in 2019 and 2020. They were a much better team. And a good team shuts down the opposition making them look ordinary.

    Bingo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    Your posts are so 1 dimensional. You go on about finding space etc. You completely ignore the damage the English team did to us in defense.

    The fact of the matter is, that team kicked contestables and beat the living **** out of our team while also setting up camp in our half.

    Simple game plan if you have the power to back it up.

    It's very hard to tire out a team playing that game plan, first, because you really need to kick back, not attack out of your own 22 and second because of the amount of touch finders, the ball is not in play for very long.

    On top of that, you think in terms of big vs small nimble. The England team were big, they were fit and played well to their game plan.

    If they did damage to us in defense then why didn’t we try compete in the air? We as usual played into England’s hands.

    England back three were very shaky under the high ball aswell, yet we never thought about exploiting that? One team came with a game plan and we were the other team.

    And again the question that hasn’t been answered, if it’s all down to size and nothing else than why is it only Ireland that England do this to on a regular basis?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    Bingo.

    So what was our plan in those games to counter their game plan, was it just one out runners?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,966 ✭✭✭TRC10


    clsmooth wrote: »
    Ah come on, give the English team a bit of credit last night. They beat us well, but incredible spirit by the lads to have been in the hunt in the last 5. Pity we didn’t nail the conversion to set up a 7 point game.

    There’s a simple reason why England beat us in 2019 and 2020. They were a much better team. And a good team shuts down the opposition making them look ordinary. We’ve made plenty of teams look like that ourselves over the years.

    They didn't beat the sh*t out of either Scotland or Wales in 2019 or 2020.

    Neither of those teams are bigger or better than us.

    They beat the living sh*t out of us because we allow them to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,872 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    UAEguy2020 wrote: »
    If they did damage to us in defense then why didn’t we try compete in the air? We as usual played into England’s hands.

    England back three were very shaky under the high ball aswell, yet we never thought about exploiting that? One team came with a game plan and we were the other team.

    And again the question that hasn’t been answered, if it’s all down to size and nothing else than why is it only Ireland that England do this to on a regular basis?

    I don't agree with any of your points, so there's no middle ground to be found.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    I don't agree with any of your points, so there's no middle ground to be found.

    I don’t really give a **** if you agree or not I’m just saying how it is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    Our inability to deal with their kicking game was a bigger factor in those losses in 2019 and 2020. Putting it all down to "they're bigger" is just plain lazy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,979 ✭✭✭connachta


    UAEguy2020 wrote: »
    I don’t really give a **** if you agree or not I’m just saying how it is.

    Right, modesty in truth discovering


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    Our inability to deal with their kicking game was a bigger factor in those losses in 2019 and 2020. Putting it all down to "they're bigger" is just plain lazy.

    Plus if it was just down to then being bigger than they would have done identical to Wales and Scotland which they didn’t.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,966 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Our inability to deal with their kicking game was a bigger factor in those losses in 2019 and 2020. Putting it all down to "they're bigger" is just plain lazy.

    You're able to apply more pressure with kicks if you're winning the gainline, for which it helps to be bigger.

    But that has nothing to do with the fact that when we have the ball, we play into their hands.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    That English 20s team literally did do the same to Scotland. Scotland couldn't buy a try even with England down to 13, I don't see where this "why only us" narrative is coming from.


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,445 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    UAEguy2020 wrote: »
    We lose because we get into a mud pit with a pig.

    The question is why are we trying to play England at their own game when we know it almost always ends with us getting man handled? Why didn’t our 2019 & 2020 u20s get man handled or did our 2021 senior team? Because they didn’t play this route one one out runners rugby.

    If it’s the size that’s an issue why does it only seem to happen to us on a regular basis?

    do you actually think that "route one, one out runners" is actually a tactic?

    Its the equivalent of a side ways pass in soccer or a kick pass backwards in gaa when faced with a blanket defence.

    Its what you do before you try to create an opening. And if you are up against a powerful blitzing defence, which has your attacking line stagnant or retreating, then one out runners is all you can do before either kicking away or passing deep. They want you to pass deep as their blitz is profiting, and they are happy for you to kick away possession... as you are the team that loosing.

    And when you are loosing you dont want to kick away possession, so your one out runners consistently get hit behind the line in order to setup some kind of a deep back line move... and then when you try something, one stupid pass and and its a dropped ball and england are over the try line again.

    when you are up against a defence which is so powerful, fast and organised as the lads were last night, one out runners is the only option to actually secure possession before you can try something..

    this commentary of "why do we only do one out runners when we are up against a powerful england side" really gets my goat... obvious thats not when the plan is.. buts its what must be done in order to try to get the plan working.
    You simply cannot get flashy attacking patterns going when:

    A your ball carrier is getting both held up and knocked backwards
    B you need to throw more bodies in to secure possession
    C your ball is severely slowed down because of A and B above and
    D your line has to go backwards due to A and B above

    all this leads to a more organised defence facing you, which are quite happy to blitz up and in every single time and cut your ball down at source, when they know they are winning the game.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    That English 20s team literally did do the same to Scotland. Scotland couldn't buy a try even with England down to 13, I don't see where this "why only us" narrative is coming from.

    You must have switched off at halftime.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think we inflate our teams size. Soroka looked like a small boy next to his opposite #. I remember people saying months ago , how big Soroka looked!
    We didn't field the high balls. We were murdered with dominant tackles. When we did play out wide, we made mistakes. The breakdown was a mess. The constant physicality of England wore us down.
    Yet, there was a lot of positives gained from this match. The boys never gave up, they fronted up and played their hearts out. They kept England in touch. England had to fight for everything. We will see lots of these young men advance to the provinces.
    I suspect, if McCarthy and Murray were involved, things could have been different. McCarthy is listed as a fairly big lock and Murray is bigger. But, the squad we have have given everything and more. They are a credit to the underage system. The big concern going forward is the injury list. Donnelly looked like he picked up an abdominal injury, Boyle a head injury and Kendellan a head injury.
    I think there's going to be a lot of changes for the next match.
    I reckon Okeke will start and maybe Kelleher. Morrissey will probably come back in and Saunderson will bench at least.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,966 ✭✭✭TRC10


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    do you actually think that "route one, one out runners" is actually a tactic?

    Its the equivalent of a side ways pass in soccer or a kick pass backwards in gaa when faced with a blanket defence.

    Its what you do before you try to create an opening. And if you are up against a powerful blitzing defence, which has your attacking line stagnant or retreating, then one out runners is all you can do before either kicking away or passing deep. They want you to pass deep as their blitz is profiting, and they are happy for you to kick away possession... as you are the team that loosing.

    And when you are loosing you dont want to kick away possession, so your one out runners consistently get hit behind the line in order to setup some kind of a deep back line move... and then when you try something, one stupid pass and and its a dropped ball and england are over the try line again.

    when you are up against a defence which is so powerful, fast and organised as the lads were last night, one out runners is the only option to actually secure possession before you can try something..

    this commentary of "why do we only do one out runners when we are up against a powerful england side" really gets my goat... obvious thats not when the plan is.. buts its what must be done in order to try to get the plan working.
    You simply cannot get flashy attacking patterns going when:

    A your ball carrier is getting both held up and knocked backwards
    B you need to throw more bodies in to secure possession
    C your ball is severely slowed down because of A and B above and
    D your line has to go backwards due to A and B above

    all this leads to a more organised defence facing you, which are quite happy to blitz up and in every single time and cut your ball down at source, when they know they are winning the game.

    I get that you have to set up a ruck before running a play or to create an opening.

    But once we set up the ruck with a one out runner, we just did the same over and over again, sometimes off 9, sometimes off 10 (a carry off 10 is basically suicide against line speed that aggresive).

    England's defence was very narrow, because they knew they could just bunch around the ruck and smash the runner that came at them, because we weren't going to stretch them or put any width on the ball.

    I think the overall point is, we seem to be particularly bad at playing against big teams who employ blitz defences. Other nations seem to deal with them much better than us.

    Like Wales against SA in the world cup, who just kicked the leather off the ball instead of running at it.

    Or Japan who play with incredible tempo and attack space extremely well.


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