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She-Hulk - Disney+ (***Spoilers***)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18

    I think people are misremembering the Netflix series, it was dark and gritty but Matt was charming and capable of moments of humour. I can completely believe that we saw in this show is the same Matt, he hasn't changed but he's in a different tone of story.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭kerplun k

    IIRC, He was a bit goofy in the The Defenders. Him and JJ were bouncing off one another.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,712 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol

    Really not sure where this has come from based on my post. What I said was:

    "Ally McBeal type episodic route..."

    I never spoke about the overall quality or character development etc of the show - specifically I noted the more episodic format when compared to others. I'd mentioned other legal/episodic shows earlier in the thread, only mentioning Ally McBeal in this response because it was brought up by the poster I responded to.

    She-Hulk run time so far is about 4 episodes of Ally McBeal and that show ended up having 112 episodes. The idea you can even try to compare anything beyond superficial elements of format and style is a huge reach.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,712 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol

    The uncontrolled anger closes the loop that drew complaints earlier in the show that presumed she had full control of her powers just because she believed she did.

    She is far, far from a deep or complex character but has a mix of likeability and flaws. As the narrator we see it from her point of view and at times that just reinforces her arrogance.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana

    You might want to tell She-Hulk director, Kat Coiro, about what a big reach she was making then. "I drew from 'Ally McBeal' and 'Legally Blonde,' [which] I think took the legal genre and turned it on its head and injected it with pink and wildness," Coiro said. "That's something we definitely do, is take something very familiar and make it a little bit strange, but really, it was the MCU films that I looked to, to make sure that we fit into the world." Coiro also told us that there's more "Ally McBeal" inspirations in "She-Hulk" than just channeling a similar energy. "If you look closely, there are some little hidden 'Ally McBeal' details in the series,” she said. "Look at the TVs."

    So, um yeah. There is a definite attempt there to emulate Ally McBeal while obviously not having a clue what made a show like Ally McBeal actually work. I went and watched a few episodes of Ally McBeal over the weekend, and while I went straight to S4 with RDJ, (the best season) I was genuinely surprised by how much better it was than I remembered. What struck me most is that both the legal cases and the interpersonal drama on the show were largely presented as ambiguous. It was rare that one side was 100% right or 100% wrong. There were morally grey areas, different opinions but each with validity depending on each person's point of view. The show was genuinely filled with nuance. And thinking about it, isn't that what makes a show popular, what makes people talk about it the next day at work. People taking sides and hashing it out. It's why over 20 years on you'll still get people arguing whether or not Ross and Rachel were on a break. That's never going to happen with She-Hulk because she's just always great and righteous.

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,153 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp

    Only watched Episode 5 last night; definitely struggling to get through this. Another episode where the "characters" are drawn so broadly, yet with absolutely nothing resembling human emotions or behaviour behind it all. Oh a flamboyant fashion designer? Uhm, sure.

    Ally McBeal is coming up, but I was actually thinking of The Good Place myself while watching this: thought of it because The Good Place's humour wasn't all that different to this - that is to say, very broad and very goofy. Scenes on earth were often as ludicrous as those in the afterlife, the cast big loud stereotypes in places. The big difference though in terms of enjoyment is The Good Place's cast all had emotional depth beneath their postage-stamp character sheets; She-Hulk has none. Ok, we explored that depth over the course of the 4 seasons of TGP, but even in Season 1 things got a little unpacked.

    Again, it's disappointment colouring my experience, not outrage or hate-watching. She-Hulk was a comedic comic, and the bedrock of the MCU is comedy. Not sure how this has missed its own open goal so badly.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,712 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol

    I'm not sure what the director has to do with my opinion on the episodic nature of the show. I also don't see where the director claims She-Hulk has the quality or character development of McBeal either - what you took issue with.

    Nice that you could jump straight into episode 68 of McBeal, as I mentioned before She-Hulk has just finished episode 4 of comparative McBeal episode runtime. No interest in going back to watch but I don't remember being wowed by the first 4 episodes of McBeal. It is pointless and simply wrong to try to compare what you are from long running standalone shows to a mini-series set within a larger universe, similarly Friends had 236 episodes.

    Your whole argument is built on a complete strawman, no one has claimed that She-Hulk has the quality or character development of McBeal or now apparently the cultural impact of Friends.

  • Registered Users Posts: 33,048 ✭✭✭✭Penn

    Not to mention Ally McBeal is a comedic drama, She-Hulk is a comedy sitcom superhero show.

    Just because writers/directors say they took some inspiration from Ally McBeal, doesn't mean they were aiming for the legal side of things to be of the same quality or accuracy. In the same sentence they also mention Legally Blonde.

    The legal side of things is only a framework to show how bizarre the MCU is and examine what the legal world would be like in a world of superheroes, but in a funny, sitcom way.

    I said it before, but people are expecting far too much from this show. It's the MCU doing a different style of show, and it has an element of freedom because of that. It's just a dumb show that's a bit of fluff. Not all jokes or bits will land, and the legal stuff is never going to be accurate because it's not the focus nor is it really possible because this is a world of superheroes which transcend many laws. It's just a bit of fun.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,712 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol

    I dont think it was an open goal. Thor Love and Thunder has been the closest that MCU have come to a pure comedy and that has been seen by most at very best hit and miss, with many seeing it as a complete miss. Having likeable characters make quips in an action movie is completely different than trying to pivot the other way with a goofy comedy with action every now and again. They take very different skillsets and oversight.

    Many have wanted MCU to move away from their usual formula, so far none that took a bigger step away have really worked or been well received aside from WandaVision (though many had issues with that). Maybe more will appreciate when some of the future offerings come back closer to the norm

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,153 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp

    I think the show can be compared, ultimately, against peers within the genre in which it exists: ie, a sitcom. So is it a good sitcom? Honestly, I don't think it is, for all the reasons I and others have mentioned. I just don't laugh often, which is a killer. Compared with, say, something as frivolous as a sitcom like Bob's Burgers that routinely makes me guffaw. YMMV obviously. The MCU is doing a lot of heavy-lifting by dint of its convenient cameos and nods. So is it a good MCU entry? Again, I can't honestly say that it is - so far. Obviously at episode 5 I'm behind the curve on many of ye.

    I don't agree the MCU hasn't been "pure comedy" - but that gets into the realms of splitting hairs where nobody agrees. GotG and the latter-day Thor movies have been upfront comedies, layered with intermittent action set-pieces. The key difference IMO between an action-comedy and a sitcom is the former often emphasises comedy mined through action set-pieces and physical bits - the latter more interested in character dynamics and static interaction. Which, again, is why I don't enjoy She-Hulk because I don't find that pillar especially good. But I dare any MCU enthusiasts to find a character arc more compelling, complex and interesting than Starlord's; James Gunn's scripts absolutely nailed character depth in amongst the gags. Ditto Rocket & Drax, albeit to a lesser extent.

    The MCU isn't an absolute prospect; deviation from "the formula" isn't an automatic pass if the end-result is a bit flat. To whit: I really enjoyed Hawkeye, which has already become a show I feel many forgot even happened? I think that did a much better job of "ground level" reality than this show is managing; not least for what has become my favourite little humanising detail of its cast of superheroes: poor Clint Barton fussing with his hearing aid. That remains a chef's kiss moment of understated consequences of the Superhero Reality many properties, even outside the MCU, haven't touched. That moment Clint takes a call from his son while his aid is broken? Oh god that was just magnificent.

    I dunno. The show seems to have pitched itself at a tone it can't work with; this really outsized level of goofiness that isn't working for me. Like I said, The Good Place did similar but nailed the landing (and, funnily enough, also starred Jameela Jamil) with the gags and characters. Maybe I'd care less if She-Hulk made me laugh more.

    Post edited by pixelburp on

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  • Registered Users Posts: 59,990 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson

    Well that finale is going to divide opinions for sure.

    A really nice tribute to Bill Bixby's Incredible Hulk.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    4th wall SMASHED!

    Enjoyable, and leaned into the type of programme it is.

  • Registered Users Posts: 33,048 ✭✭✭✭Penn

    That definitely took some strange turns I wasn't expecting, even considering all the previous 4th wall breaks. But I thought a lot of it was very funny. It poked fun not just at itself but the MCU and some of the general criticisms of it, but in a way that allowed it to stand as its own thing rather than the typical MCU season finale. It was always a low-stakes, non-punchy show anyway, so veering away from a big brawl between She-Hulk, Hulk, Abomination, Hulkking and Titania was a smart move.

    Nice to see Daredevil back. Wonder if their relationship will continue to span into Echo and Daredevil's own show.

    Hulk's son.... that felt kinda thrown in. I saw it coming due to comics knowledge, but it felt very anticlimactic and probably should have been used as the post-credits rather than Wong & Abomination.

    I really liked the series as a whole though. It was just a bit of fun. A blend of different types of shows (sitcom, legal, superhero), but allowed itself to not conform rigidly to any of those styles. I wouldn't rank it too highly against most of the other MCU shows (Wandavision & Loki still miles ahead of most of the others), but it was just a fun watch with good performances and some great integration of guest stars and side characters.

  • Registered Users Posts: 31,633 ✭✭✭✭gmisk

    Well....that finale...was errr....different?

    The retro TV show nod intro was...insanely good! The person playing she hulk in green paint kind of worked just as well at points as the CGI hulk has in this series.

    The K.e.v.i.n...climbing through the menu...absolutely bonkers...Hulks son randomly introduced...ok

    Jen and Matt have terrific chemistry. Also really enjoyed her chemistry with Nikki. Wongers and Madisynn the iconic couple we didn't know we needed ha.

    You can't accuse it of being formulaic.

    It has been an uneven but enjoyable series imo. I would watch more but it could maybe be a little bit more focus would help...dare I say it a little bit more...generic.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    I enjoyed it.... first and last episode, best episodes of the season.....

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    I was thinking it during the show, but then she actually said similar herself. They definitely took a step back and considered what the audience was thinking of She-Hulk and the MCU, they even guessed the online trolling they'd get.

  • Registered Users Posts: 28,666 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy

    Opening was nicely done.

    They didn't hold back on smashing the fourth wall anyway.

    So I guess The Leader wasn't involved after all.

    Was wondering what series Wong was going to be in next then realised they meant he got hooked on another series after Sopranos.

    I had subs on and they ruined the twist a bit by spelling it K.E.V.I.N. anytime the writers said the name.

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,144 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly

    That was a fun opening for those of us old enough to have seen it on tv every week

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭kerplun k

    Absolutely hated that finale.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,966 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy

    Enjoyed that - thought they did a good job with the meta commentary on the big climatic battle scenes and why it wasn't necessary. A good ending to a mostly middling show, although I figured a lot of people will dislike the fourth wall breaking as much as it did.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭brianc27

    this show grew on me, really didnt like the first 3 or 4 episodes but enjoyed the rest, especially the last 3, kinda liked the full on fourth wall breaking on the final episode, actually found this to be the funniest episodeS, i see it only has a rating of 5 on IMDB, bit harsh, its not that bad overall. The she hulk CGI is pretty jarring.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,454 ✭✭✭✭Varik

    There's breaking the fourth wall and then there's bugs bunny coming off the page to tell the animator what to do. The big bad is a joke, and to play on a thunderbolt Ross comment a Nuke had a public freak out but it's fine now.

    The writers weren't capable of doing a proper legal show or a legal comedy, only treading water at best and then doing a self congratulatory self referential finale about how it wasn't a normal MCU show.

    If they wanted to (with a better writing team) they could have done a proper legal comedy, big finale with the half human Skaar getting citizenship/ non-humans getting human rights or something.

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,321 ✭✭✭✭AMKC

    Not a great episode and certainly not the best episode and it was not even a single bit funny either. A big disappointment. I do not mind a little bit of that forth s wall stuff bit all the time no that's just jarring. The best episode of this series was the 2nd or 4th one I think.

    As for a finale this was just terrible.

    The last episode wpukd have been a better Fainal episode. I put this episode up there with "These are the Voyages" from "Star Trek Enterprise" as one to forget

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.

  • Subscribers Posts: 40,544 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat

    So they went full blazing saddles....

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,563 ✭✭✭✭peteeeed

    This is what dr strange multiverse of madness could have been instead of the dross that it was . great fun and going anywhere it wanted also giving daredevil (wisecracking comic book version ) he's start in the MCU with an 18 episode season incoming

    the CGI aside , i liked it way more than i thought it would after a so so first ep

    hopefully there's a deadpool interaction on the way

  • Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭naughtyboy

    Insane stuff , dreadful and unwatchable

    A lead character who was very unlikeable and so woke it actually hurt my brain

    Why is it Disney cannot just make a good shows with good characters, why do they need to constantly push divisive messaging

    One of the worst TV shows ever made, bizarre stuff

  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭jo187

    Can I ask what you found woke about the character and how if effective the show for you?

  • Registered Users Posts: 40,007 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail

    Honestly anybody who complains about a show being too woke doesn't have anything interesting to say.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,686 ✭✭✭✭flazio

    You lost me with the use of the word "woke".

    I agree with above that it went a bit Looney Tunes and Animaniacs at the end.

    Not one of stronger shows if I'm honest. Trolling is never entertaining. I did like the Nikki character though, didn't fall into the "in a lower job because she's less" cliché. Always bright side up.

    But overall when you make a show that pokes fun at the universe you populate, it helps to write characters you root and care about or at least develop into someone you root for. Take Lower Decks on Star Trek. Poking fun at the shows history and yet when one of the main characters was told of a death recently you felt for them. If one of Jens parents got killed by Abomination, I'd be "Oh, that's a shame". There just wasn't any emotional connection to any of the characters for me here. I couldn't care less if I never see any of them again (aside from Matt Murdock of course, they missed a gag by not having Deborah Ann Woll being at the Kevin reception, demanding to speak to the manager and being a right, well, Karen specifically.)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭naughtyboy

    Are you serious

    The whole bloody thing was one big bag of woke insane rubbish , it was also beyond stupid.

    The most infamous scene for me was the Controlling the anger scene between hulk and the she hulk, literally wtf was that

    Everyone involved in this show should hang their heads but the writers especially will be lucky to work in TV again ,