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NTA Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy Review

124

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,849 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    They are betting the house that large numbers of people will get PCP/car loans to buy new EVs to reduce emissions. That's the plan as far as I can see.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,568 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    I do understand the merits of that idea. However is that plan actually doable if our planning system is committing itself to actually build of these new charging points at various locations all around the country right up until 2030.

    Also would people be able to commit to actually provide a charging point for their cars themselves outside their own homes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭ richiek83


    Construction will commence in Phase 1 of the Plan (the period to 2030). Will then be operational in the early part of phase 2 of the plan. My guess would be a 2024 commencement date subject to ABP approving in 12-18 months and no legal challenges and final business case being approved. Current Govt would need this project to be in construction by next election considering the amount of news on the project over the last few months.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,147 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    % of car sales done under PCP has always been high, with some dealers reporting up to 70% of sales back in 2017




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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Parts of DART+ will be under construction at the same time so will be interesting how they manage this in terms of capital budgets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    The cbc project just won't be delivered as is, not in the current political climate, too many influential folks will be upset



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    The Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy gets reviewed and updated every 5 years. All that matters now is that it commits to the things which can happen in the next 5 years (BusConnects, Metrolink, DART+). It will change again in 5 years and anything can be added at that point if necessary. There was really no point in some wishy washy intention for DART+ Tunnel like with all these aspirational Luas lines, it means nothing now or for the foreseeable future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭ roddney


    The biggest problem with the current plan, is that the only actual new route is the Metrolink. Everything else is an upgrade to existing routes, which while welcome to existing commuters it doesn't do much to add new ones and cover the large infrastructure holes in the city. Surprised there isn't a bit more ambition on new Luas lines as they are cheap compared to a Metro or Dart Underground.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    In the long term, I'm curious how lucan luas is going to be squared with the long fabled plans for a plaza at college green.

    And the othe proposals for luas on some bus corridors, are we going to see luas and High frequency buses share large lengths of road space or are we going to see massive curtailment of cars on radial routes. I look forward to the reports of future cancelled projects.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ Bsharp


    The luas will be planned on BusConnects corridors for the time they reach peak capacity and in turn will never get delivered; not dissimilar to the metro upgrade of the green line.

    They've made a mess and a bigger mess of cleaning it up. Not willing to show humility and admit that Luas should be delivered instead of bus on some of the BusConnects CBCs to meet future demand. So we get this random post 2042 map using the same corridors for both.

    Not one orbital route either. I'm picturing what the city centres stops are meant to look like in 2050 when everyone is supposedly interchanging to criss-cross the city at grade.

    The outcome of this plan will be a greater focus on developers doing build to rent apartments inside M50 at lower standards to avail of reduced parking when there's poor accessibility; a poor outcome for residents. Hard to make a business case for anything else when the city is so poorly served by public transport. Outside the M50 we'll keep going with sprawl.



  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭ Consonata


    This strategy really should be vilified by the press in all honesty.

    The fact that somebody got paid to throw together this half-***ed crayoned drawing of several potential maybe likely Luas lines that could possibly happen maybe after some consultation post 2042! Like this picture strikes me as a project would throw together to cover up the fact that nothing has changed or moved on since the last planning doc. In fact we've regressed! Instead of the above, the only projects which have been confirmed to be done by 2042 is below.




  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    The last time that the NTA looked at future does for the Luas, didn't they come to the conclusion that Lucan was the only viable option? All of the other options basically required zero cars going into the city centre, which makes this routes unthinkable in this Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,568 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    This plan does not give me any confidence in the future allowing this mess of our rail infrastructure to continue in this way.

    It basically sounds like they want to continue building any form of rail transport infrastructure that is prioritized for overground purposes as opposed to underground.

    Outside of this country we have about around 70 million Irish people who live in countries abroad who have underground rail infrastructure already in place in various cities around the world. If those ex-pats are using underground rail in those countries as a means of getting around in their day to day lives; we would be giving off assumptions here all the time these ex-pats who use it regularly can do so with relative ease when they use it to go to work or for leisure activities that is miles away from their own home.

    But in Ireland however; that sort of stuff just never happens here or is regarded as a pure pipe dream. We are too timid within our current approach to get major infrastructure projects like Metrolink built to support the betterment of our countries economy & quality of life. If we were really that serious in making serious commitments in reducing our emissions because of a major risk of climate change to happen in the future.

    Doing things like avoiding to build an underground rail project like Metrolink should not be considered to be avoided to be built when we are making those commitments to build it either now or in the future.

    Ireland is not going to stay like a country on the west of Europe with a small population forever. It is going to keep on growing no matter what the naysayers say on this matter. And our recent CSO figures said that over 5 million people live in our own country as of now. And that statistic shows to me there are no emerging signs that it will ever stop growing now or in the future. Based on other things like building new housing; those figures will never stop growing until those figures will start to plateau overtime.

    If a government official based in another country had ever considered at one point in their lives to build an underground metro rail line for the betterment of their own population of their city. They just get consult the members of their public & have the planning documents submitted to their own planning authorities to just get the bloody thing finished no matter how long it takes; no questions asked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,620 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    The NTA have been forced to clarify matters:

    NTA clarifies GDA Strategy proposals

    NTA would like clarify some of the matters that have arisen in relation to the GDA Draft Transport Strategy published this week. It is important to the NTA that our proposals are clearly understood and presented accurately to the public. The public consultation phase is a vital step in the final review of the Strategy and it is incumbent on the NTA to ensure there is genuine and constructive public consultation based on the facts.

    The following sets out to correct any misinterpretations which may have occurred as it has been suggested that among the proposals that we published this week were plans to delay or defer key projects such as Metrolink, Luas to Finglas, Luas to Lucan, Luas to Poolbeg, Luas to Bray and DART+. This is not the case. 

    METROLINK

    NTA has not proposed any change in the timeline for Metrolink. The pathway for delivery for Metrolink is the same today as it was before the GDA strategy was published this week. Metrolink is still scheduled to go to planning next year (2022) and is still scheduled to be constructed as soon as possible after that.

    LUAS

    Likewise, we are not proposing any deferral of the four Luas projects provided for in our current Strategy. Luas to Finglas is still due to go planning in 2024 and constructed in the years after that.

    The other three Luas projects are all still on the same schedule they were on before we published our Strategy this week. We have not proposed any deferral to any of these schemes.

    DART

    DART+ is already being designed, and schemes including DART+ West and DART+ SouthWest are already out for public consultation. NTA has not and will not propose any deferral of these projects.

    NTA and Iarnród Éireann will in the coming months announce a framework arrangement for the procurement of 750 electric / battery-electric powered DART carriages for services on the Maynooth, Hazelhatch and Drogheda lines.

    PROPOSED CHANGES

    We are proposing that some projects should change status:

    • For example, there are potentially eight new Luas lines that we believe will be necessary in the decades ahead and it is our view that provision should be made for those starting now.
    • There is a new rail line proposed to serve Navan for projected population increases in the years’ ahead.
    • DART services are to be further extended, beyond what is currently proposed under DART+ to places like Wicklow, Kilcock and Sallins.
    DART TUNNEL

    Provision remains in our proposals for a DART tunnel, but based on projections for 2042, we believe that the net increase of people using public transport as a result of the tunnel would only be in the order of 10,000 a day, as part of a total of about 1.4m a day. We propose to keep DART tunnel under ongoing review.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭ richiek83


    To be fair, there would appear to be some misinformation out there in respect of elements of the Draft Strategy. John Kilraine from RTE for example reported the other day that Metrolink would be delayed until 2037. What was said was that Metrolink would be operational in the early part of phase 2 of the strategy (the 2031-2042 period), He appeared to think that it would only go to construction in 2031 or so. Opposition politicians seized on this and waxed lyrical about it sensing a political opportunity. There is a significant amount of background reports that have informed the strategy so one can argue that it has been drafted using evidence based methodologies. Whatever anyone may think of it, its a draft strategy and subject to change following public consultation which I'm sure many politicians, members of the public and statutory stakeholder groups will make a submission. The Minister himself can also direct changes as far as I'm aware. The report was quite clear in what it planned to do and when it planned to do it but no doubt some people will differ on this view. In any event, it will all be subject to Govt funding so as we know a plan is one thing, funding it is a completely separate matter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭ Podge_irl


    The report was not as clear as it should have been, but ultimately it was just a screw-up by RTÉ that people ran with



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    The Irish Times were reporting today that Jacobs Engineering were asked to investigate the costs of a future southside extension of Metrolink either to the southeast (Sandyford via UCD) or southwest (towards Rathfarnham/Knocklyon.

    Their report indicated costs of 4.5-5.1 billion euro (southeast) or 4-5.6 billion euro (southwest).

    It's a bit unclear what this means.

    Both of those potential termini are (when broadly measured along a possible route, basically the roads leading to them from the city centre) about 8 km from St. Stephen's Green.

    If we take the current Swords-City metrolink plan (about 16 km to St. Stephen's Green) at costing about 3 billion, and these would be the costs only for the extensions, then it seems unlikely that the costs for these potential extensions alone could be so high, given that the boring machine would already be in the ground, the difficult part in the city would already largely have been traversed by the machines and at least some part, you'd think, of either of these extensions could be built overground (like the first phase).

    If those figures from the Irish Times are correct, the costs (for the extensions) would surely mean that the costs for the initial phase of the metrolink would be heading well beyond 6 billion euro. Which seems unlikely, given the costs of metro lines, per km, elsewhere.

    If, on the other hand, the Jacobs figure of 5.6 billion (say, for a southwest extension) is for a complete Swords to Knocklyon metro (about 24 km). At 233 million per km, is that so far out of whack with what other cities are doing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭ Heartbreak Hank



    Draft 2021 GDA Cycle Network Plan Report

    This report doesn't have much info in it at all. There have been some changes since the original Cycle Network Plan from 2013 but they aren't detailed in the report. You'd need to spend many hours comparing the old 2013 maps with the new maps. A fun job for some volunteers in a group like Dublin Cycling Campaign I'm sure.


    Any idea what "network" means in the context of this plan - especially in rural areas. Does is mean segregated cycle tracks; bike symbols painted on existing roads; reduced speed limits on existing roads; way-marking signs; or just a low-res map with one route selected over another for some unstated reason?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,212 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    in the case of the 2013 plan, it was a mix - in very rural areas it was "designated routes" with reduced limits, some manner of traffic calming etc.

    very little of the 2013 plan was implemented. On a lot of routes cycle lanes are now tied up with the BusConnects project, which means nothing will happen for years. Very frustrating when this is one area where things could be done quickly and fairly cheaply (as other cities have done in the last couple of years).



  • Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭ Heartbreak Hank


    Thanks for that. I searched but couldn't find any detail on what the routes would actually look like. Was this detailed in a similar report back in 2013?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,212 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    I don't remember if there was that level of detail in the previous plan

    documents at at https://www.nationaltransport.ie/planning-and-investment/transport-investment/greater-dublin-area-cycle-network-plan/



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,620 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Personally I wish RTE would keep John Kilraine as far away from public transport stories as possible - he has repeatedly either got the wrong end of the stick, or focussed on whatever negatives he could find, while not reporting the postiives. He is appalling.



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