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The Greats

  • 17-11-2020 11:16am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    So, who are your greats and what makes them great?

    For me, in no particular order (and sticking to the players from my era):

    Arnie
    Player
    Jack
    Tom
    Faldo
    Norman
    Seve
    Monty
    Phil
    Tiger

    And those with potential to make my list:
    Koepka
    McIlroy
    DJ


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭ Littlehorny


    Would take Monty off that list TBH but would add Ballesteros and Langer to it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭ Pdoghue


    Seve surely?


  • Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭ Pdoghue


    For me, born in the mid 70s, so players I saw on TV or in person in my lifetime:

    The European Big 5:
    Seve
    Langer
    Faldo
    Woosy
    Lyle

    I'd add to that Ollie, Monty and Rory.

    Then as well:
    Tiger
    Phil
    T Watson
    Els
    Norman


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Would take Monty off that list TBH but would add Ballesteros and Langer to it.

    I was debating about adding Langer, I would even add based on his Senior achievements!

    Seve I just plain forgot in my editing!

    I think you have to have Monty, he dominated the european tour in the 90s with 8 back to back order of merit titles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭ Miley Byrne


    GreeBo wrote: »
    So, who are your greats and what makes them great?

    For me, in no particular order (and sticking to the players from my era):

    Arnie
    Player
    Jack
    Tom
    Faldo
    Norman
    Seve
    Monty
    Phil
    Tiger

    And those with potential to make my list:
    Koepka
    McIlroy
    DJ

    Monty in and no McIlroy:D:D:D

    (Ask Monty would he prefer 4 majors or all of his order of merits and if he choses the latter he is lying)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    OK the obvious ones from someone born in the mid 70s:
    Arnie, Jack & Gary of course

    Throw in Tom Watson from the 70s/80s, plus Trevino & Floyd probably.

    Then we're into
    Seve, Norman, Langer & Faldo from the 80s

    Slightly on the fence about Lyle, Woosnam & Ollie, but ok we'll give them a pass, particularly Lyle & Ollie, Woosie is flip a coin..

    In the 90s/00s
    Tiger
    Phil
    Els
    Harrington (some won't agree but for me, 3 Majors including back to back and defending The Open, gets him in)
    Nick Price
    Vijay Singh and Retief Goosen get in because multiple Majors in the Tiger era is very impressive.

    Currently:
    Rory obviously, although he really should be closer to double figures by now.
    Koepka, don't like him but 4 Majors says it all.
    Spieth, I don't think he's anywhere nearly as good as the others, but 3 different Majors squeezes him in, but I could easily be talked into evicting him !

    DJ, no, not quite yet for me. Nearly, probably in two years time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,134 ✭✭✭ blue note


    It's one of those nonsense (but fun) arguments, so I wouldn't have any strict criteria and I wouldn't lose my head if someone didn't even apply their own consistently. For me it's a combination of a few things that will decide how I rank you;

    Majors - probably the most important factor
    Wins
    How competitive they were outside of their wins.
    Ryder Cup (sorry people who don't qualify)

    I was 11 when Tiger won his first masters, so everyone before that I just can't properly judge. I assume Jack, Arnie, Player, Watson, Seve and Faldo would all be in. And then I reckon Norman and Langer would be too. Even though they don't have the majors, they seem to have been competitive for their whole careers and have heaps of wins. Monty is just lacking in the majors category, but I can't consider someone great if they didn't do it even once. That's not luck - he had about 10 years at the top. That's 0 out of 40 attempts.

    From the people I've seen a bit more of only Tiger and Phil are definitely in for me. After that....

    McIlroy is top of the pile. 4 majors, 3 WGCs, players championship, about 25 career wins, over 100 weeks at world no 1. Another major would put him beyond question for me.
    Koepka - possibly, but outside of the majors he doesn't fit the criteria at all. Same age as McIlroy and equal to him on one measure, but other than that inferior.
    Els - possibly. 4 majors, heaps of wins, heaps of close calls. I'm leaning towards yes.
    Singh, Harrington, Speith - pains me to say it for Padraig, but he's just not on the level of the others. Same for VJ I reckon and Speith I reckon, but Speith has lots of time left.
    DJ is probably closest behind McIlroy for me now that he has the second major. He's contended at heaps of majors, has 6 WGCs (I think), over 100 weeks at world no 1. It's a similar situation to Langer / Norman, but I'm leaning towards no.

    So unquestionably for me I'll say
    Tiger, Jack, Player, Arnie, Watson, Seve, Faldo, Mickelson.

    Depending on my mood I'll include
    Norman, Langer, McIlroy, Els.

    If I've been drinking and am feeling argumentative and you've voted against them, I'll include
    DJ, Koepka.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,563 ✭✭✭✭ Rikand


    I suppose it all depends how far back you want to go. very very difficult to compare across the eras.

    Harry Vardon - 7 majors, won on both sides of the atlantic in the early 1900's

    Gene Sarazan, Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen - Shed loads of majors in the 20's and 30's - Bobby Jones, the only player to win all 4 majors (of that time) in a calendar year. Hagan won the PGA championship 4 years in a row when it was matchplay with an initial strokeplay qualifier which is serious going
    Byron Nelson, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead - Another shedload of majors in the 40's and 50's

    Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player and Tom Watson - More and more sheds! Trevino and Floyd had smaller sheds, but definitely worth mentioning. Peter Thompson built a shed for just the British Open and put 3 trophies in a row in there.

    Seve, Faldo for the majors and general winning of stuff. Norman for being so dominant outside of majors. Langer, over 100 worldwide wins if you count the seniors tour. over 60 on regular tours anyway. Monty was very strong in regular events on the european tour

    Tiger Woods - Duval, Vijay and Ernie because they were the only ones capable of taking the number 1 ranking off Tiger during his domination ? And Phil because he took 5 majors in that era too and a boatload of other tournaments.

    Too soon to say on anyone since. Certainly none of them would make top 10 greatest of all time as of right now.

    I would have Palmer, Nicklaus, Player, Watson, Seve, Tiger and Phil in my top 10. But I dont know which of the players from the 100 years previous to that you put in there with them because you just cant leave them out


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    blue note wrote: »
    It's one of those nonsense

    8qTt.gif


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Monty in and no McIlroy:D:D:D

    (Ask Monty would he prefer 4 majors or all of his order of merits and if he choses the latter he is lying)
    I dont think he stands out (yet) as one of the greats, either way he should be well in by now.
    Russman wrote: »
    Slightly on the fence about Lyle, Woosnam & Ollie, but ok we'll give them a pass, particularly Lyle & Ollie, Woosie is flip a coin..
    I think they are all great players, but didn't quite make it into "Great" for me.
    Russman wrote: »
    Harrington (some won't agree but for me, 3 Majors including back to back and defending The Open, gets him in)
    Nick Price
    Vijay Singh and Retief Goosen get in because multiple Majors in the Tiger era is very impressive.
    I debated Harrington alright, but wondered was I guilty of green tinted glasses!
    Russman wrote: »
    Currently:
    Koepka, don't like him but 4 Majors says it all.
    Spieth, I don't think he's anywhere nearly as good as the others, but 3 different Majors squeezes him in, but I could easily be talked into evicting him !

    DJ, no, not quite yet for me. Nearly, probably in two years time.
    Agree on the last 3, there is just something about Spieth that screams of "luck" to me, largely based on holing 30 foot putts!
    blue note wrote: »
    McIlroy is top of the pile. 4 majors, 3 WGCs, players championship, about 25 career wins, over 100 weeks at world no 1. Another major would put him beyond question for me.
    Koepka - possibly, but outside of the majors he doesn't fit the criteria at all. Same age as McIlroy and equal to him on one measure, but other than that inferior.
    Els - possibly. 4 majors, heaps of wins, heaps of close calls. I'm leaning towards yes.
    Singh, Harrington, Speith - pains me to say it for Padraig, but he's just not on the level of the others. Same for VJ I reckon and Speith I reckon, but Speith has lots of time left.
    Agree on all of the above, the slam (or probably any other Major) would put McIlroy in for me.
    If Koepka gets another one then he has to be included too imo, he targets the majors so wont have as many "other" wins.
    Rikand wrote: »
    I suppose it all depends how far back you want to go. very very difficult to compare across the eras.
    I think you can only compare them within their own era, otherwise its a very small list!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »

    I debated Harrington alright, but wondered was I guilty of green tinted glasses!


    Agree on the last 3, there is just something about Spieth that screams of "luck" to me, largely based on holing 30 foot putts!

    Yeah, I was aware of that but then I asked myself, "if Sky were doing it and Paddy was English, would he be in ?" :D:D

    Agree about Spieth, you can't hole 30 footers forever, it has to catch up with you, BUT, he got the job done and that eternal truism about their being no room on the scorecard for pictures sort of swung it for me.
    Mind you, on another day I'd tell him that unless he's looking for autographs, to get the heck out of this gathering of the greats, come back when you can play proper golf !:D:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭ Happy4all


    GreeBo wrote: »
    So, who are your greats and what makes them great?

    For me, in no particular order (and sticking to the players from my era):

    Arnie
    Player
    Jack
    Tom
    Faldo
    Norman
    Seve
    Monty
    Phil
    Tiger

    And those with potential to make my list:
    Koepka
    McIlroy
    DJ

    Would consider adding Trevino, Langer, Couples.

    Oh, and deleting Monty


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    Its a really fun discussion and nice distraction from the sh1te in the world right now.

    When you think about how many players in the last 20 years alone who were supposed to become great or had the potential to, Sergio, Adam Scott, Rose, Michael Campbell, Westwood, Donald, Casey, Kaymer (now there's one who really could have been and maybe with 2 Majors and a Players, is) etc., you realise just how good the guys who are in the discussion actually are/were. The guys who didn't make it have all had amazing careers and aren't even close. What a game !


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Happy4all wrote: »
    Oh, and deleting Monty
    You dont think 10 years of dominance makes you "great"?
    Russman wrote: »
    Its a really fun discussion and nice distraction from the sh1te in the world right now.

    When you think about how many players in the last 20 years alone who were supposed to become great or had the potential to, Sergio, Adam Scott, Rose, Michael Campbell, Westwood, Donald, Casey, Kaymer (now there's one who really could have been and maybe with 2 Majors and a Players, is) etc., you realise just how good the guys who are in the discussion actually are/were. The guys who didn't make it have all had amazing careers and aren't even close. What a game !

    Duval would be another interesting one, is he great? He went toe to toe with Tiger and was #1 for a period when really no one else could get a look in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭ Pdoghue


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You dont think 10 years of dominance makes you "great"?

    Very much so.. all credit to Monty ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Duval would be another interesting one, is he great? He went toe to toe with Tiger and was #1 for a period when really no one else could get a look in.

    Forgot all about him ! What a golfer. I actually met him once in the States, he was playing in the group behind me one time and was kind enough to chat with us in the bar afterwards and have photos etc. Absolutely sound, when he heard we were Irish he was reminiscing about the Walker Cup in Portmarnock.
    Great player but not “a” great imo. Although he’s very close, as you say, getting to #1 in the Tiger era.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,700 ✭✭✭ BrianD3


    One of the "2nd tier" greats that springs to mind is Ray Floyd, 29 years between first and last win on the PGA tour. 4 majors including a dominant performance at the 76 Masters. That was before my time but one thing I well remember is the 1993 Ryder Cup where he was a captain's pick at age 51 having been non playing captain 4 years earlier. There was controversy about that pick at the time, he and Lanny Wadkins the other pick were too old etc. - yet both did very well.

    Maybe its because I am now a middle aged fart myself but I would give great credit to success at a relatively advanced age or at a very young age or preferably both plus a long consistent career.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭ Happy4all


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You dont think 10 years of dominance makes you "great"?


    Good but not great.

    Major choker.


  • Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭ rooney30


    Rory Sabbatini, with Poulter a close second


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    Happy4all wrote: »
    Major choker.

    Did he ever really have many chances though ? I can’t remember many bar the two playoff losses, which in fairness are a bit like penalty shootouts.

    Ohh, forgot about the duffed 7 iron at Winged Foot.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,808 ✭✭✭✭ Mantis Toboggan


    Ye can't have Monty in there and not have McIlroy. Monty was a good player but nowhere near a great.


    IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN: "In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom"

    Irish Proclamation



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,449 ✭✭✭✭ The_Kew_Tour


    Billy Casper has to be up there


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭ IAMAMORON


    Seve Ballesteros
    Phil Mickelson
    John Daly
    Tiger Woods
    Eamonn Darcy :)


    I remember 20 years ago when they started Tiger-proofing courses. He used to win everything.

    The current crop are all savage though and offer great competitive golf to watch and enjoy. It has never been as competitive in years.

    I think Jason Day's life story is unreal, some dude considering his childhood and where he came from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,897 ✭✭✭ Deeper Blue


    Billy Casper has to be up there

    Definitely, criminally underrated player. Great stat from the golf hall of fame website below

    http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/billy-casper/
    In his prime Casper was overshadowed by Palmer, Nicklaus and Gary Player, who were marketed as The Big Three. But from 1964 to 1970, Casper won 27 U.S. events, six more than Palmer and Player combined, and two more than Nicklaus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    Ye can't have Monty in there and not have McIlroy. Monty was a good player but nowhere near a great.

    100%


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Ye can't have Monty in there and not have McIlroy. Monty was a good player but nowhere near a great.

    McIlroy has never dominated like Monty did though, he has great patches, like DJ has at the moment, but nothing near Monty's stretch.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Johnny Miller is another one that often comes up, he was slightly before my time but it feels like he didn't reach his full potential, a bit of a Sergio.


  • Registered Users Posts: 924 ✭✭✭ OEP


    GreeBo wrote: »
    McIlroy has never dominated like Monty did though, he has great patches, like DJ has at the moment, but nothing near Monty's stretch.

    But Monty never even got to number 1 in the world

    Edit: And he never won on the PGA tour, there's no way he gets in in my opinion.

    Edit2: I'm reading his Wiki now and I really can't see him as great. He only has 10 Top 10s in the majors. McIlroy has 16 Top 10s and 4 wins at age 31. I haven't looked at any other players but I'd imagine DJ has loads too. I'm too lazy to count but it looks close to 50% missed cuts at the majors too


  • Registered Users Posts: 924 ✭✭✭ OEP


    GreeBo wrote: »
    If Koepka gets another one then he has to be included too imo, he targets the majors so wont have as many "other" wins.

    Agree that 5 majors would get him in but 4 definitely doesn't unless he starts winning loads. I don't buy this targeting majors talk from him as an excuse for not winning regular events. I'm sure they all target majors but the great players still win regular events because that's part of what makes them great.

    I'm probably very biased here because I don't like Koepka, he tries too hard to play the "tough guy".


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,808 ✭✭✭✭ Mantis Toboggan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    McIlroy has never dominated like Monty did though, he has great patches, like DJ has at the moment, but nothing near Monty's stretch.

    If McIlroy stayed around the Mickey Mouse leagues he'd also dominate. Monty never got to world number 1, no majors and he didn't even win 1 pga tour event. Not sure how you can have him ahead of McIlroy.


    IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN: "In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom"

    Irish Proclamation



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