Hypothetical Alternative to lockdown

atilladehun

David Nabarro was on Primetime this week amongst other shows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNOxl6kH4QQ&ab_channel=TheSpectator

His point is that Lockdowns can only delay the virus. Track and Trace is the best way to fight it.

The app we have only communicates through Bluetooth. It doesn't use GPS locations. Because of this we don't really know where the transmissions are taking place. It's useful to a point but not the detail we all know technology could achieve.

One of the reasons for this is down to privacy laws we have. In Australia, under a different legal system, there is talk of the returning citizens wearing a tag.

My question to you is would you accept a proper track and trace system. One that follows where we go, if we get infected it can match locations and people to our previous days. If we're in a location it can tell us there is someone near who should be isolating and it can also alert the Garda if we are breaking our mandatory isolation. In return for this there would be no lockdown.

For the purpose of this hypothetical I'm going to say it will not be misused by the government or big corporations, though I'm aware of how much big corps know about us already.

Thierry12

Ankle tags would work better ;-)

ILoveYourVibes

Lockdown is to stop us spreading it.

Tracking is knowing when we spread it. Its after the fact.

Strumms

There isn’t the will or maybe ability to sanction those who break restrictions.

Has any business or individuals been brought before a judge ?

How many fines have been administered ?

LordBasil

The best why out of this that won't involve endless lockdowns or vaccines is if they can develop a rapid result, reliable saliva Covid 19 test that people can do themselves. If they could mass produce and distribute them so everyone in the country could test themselves regularly and quickly isolate themselves if positive then the virus could be eradicated/suppressed enough so normal life could return. The government gave funding last month to research developing these type of tests.

ILoveYourVibes

LordBasil wrote: »

The best why out of this that won't involve endless lockdowns or vaccines is if they can develop a rapid result, reliable saliva Covid 19 test that people can do themselves. If they could mass produce and distribute them so everyone in the country could test themselves regularly and quickly isolate themselves if positive then the virus could be eradicated/suppressed enough so normal life could return. The government gave funding last month to research developing these type of tests.

Bingo
Testing or a vaccine has always been the way out.

The reason its so deadly is because its a silent knife. You have it a long time before you realize it.

It won't totally eliminate the need for lockdown ..but it might help us stay around level 3

atilladehun

LordBasil wrote: »

The best why out of this that won't involve endless lockdowns or vaccines is if they can develop a rapid result, reliable saliva Covid 19 test that people can do themselves. If they could mass produce and distribute them so everyone in the country could test themselves regularly and quickly isolate themselves if positive then the virus could be eradicated/suppressed enough so normal life could return. The government gave funding last month to research developing these type of tests.

I agree. Do you trust everyone to isolate if they self test and get a positive result?

nthclare

From my observation.
There's no easy way around this,it's a monumental **** up, of embarrassing proportions.

It's unfair, sad and from the word go it's killing people's world views and spirit.
Not only is this thing infecting people, if people don't catch it one way it's also infecting their minds and hearts.

And from the word go I for one am abiding by the suggestions, but the ****ers who didn't listen to the first suggestions, pricks who went to the races, party's, pub's after GAA wins, slobbering all over each other after, doing their stupid dance and passing around the cup etc

Old people dying and vulnerable etc
Mark my words there will be people found dead in their homes around the country due to fear of clogging up the hospital or they just couldn't cope with it all.

It's not the people who behaved themselves who should be punished, but we're all in this together.

It's the same pricks who ruined it for everyone else, no doubt they're not going to apologize.
Because they're never wrong.

People were happy enough with the stay in your own county situation, but they had to go one step further

What about Old Mick down the road who loves a Sunday drive,bring his flask and sandwiches and sit at a headland, delighted he's still driving at 74.
Locked into 5km at this hour of his life due to pricks who couldn't just for one year one ****ing year do without a party or gathering.

Or aul Sally and Maggie who likes to walk the beach in Fanore but she's 7km away, and at 68 she loves running from her car in her swimsuit on a damp wet day have a dip and run back feeling all fizzy and elated after the cold water..
Yeah you bell ends ruined that too, but ye ****ers have no respect for the rest of us.

Sorry for the bad language but I'm speaking the truth here..

SeaBreezes

There are many countries around the world controlled it.

NZ, Taiwan, Vietnam, Japan, Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong, S. Korea, S.Africa.

Its not rocket science, and its doable.

Unfortunately, we just dont seem to have the will to do it here. We used to. We shut down ports for foot and mouth, but decided early in the game it was not feasible for covid. Why not?

So fricking sad. Such a lost oppertunity.
Still, its a great way to identify the me feiners. The antimaskers. The people suddenly worried about mental health, who never cared before.

is_that_so

SeaBreezes wrote: »

There are many countries around the world controlled it.

NZ, Taiwan, Vietnam, Japan, Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong, S. Korea, S.Africa.

Its not rocket science, and its doable.

Unfortunately, we just dont seem to have the will to do it here. We used to. We shut down ports for foot and mouth, but decided early in the game it was not feasible for covid. Why not?

So fricking sad. Such a lost oppertunity.
Still, its a great way to identify the me feiners. The antimaskers. The people suddenly worried about mental health, who never cared before.

Most of those countries either employ measures that would not be legal here or went for hard isolation, a non-runner in most parts of the world. Not sure how S Africa got on that list, their cases have gone up 10% in the last 14 days. The last bit seems to be a rant about eh, things.

smck321

SeaBreezes wrote: »

There are many countries around the world controlled it.

NZ, Taiwan, Vietnam, Japan, Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong, S. Korea, S.Africa.

The first and sixth countries are thousands of miles away from their closest neighbour, we are half an hour.

The rest have deployed levels of enforcement that if employed here would drive reasonable people to the streets against it.

In South Africa they banned alcohol and the police beat people to get back in their houses, in Singapore they jail you if you disobey quarantine orders with no fines or sympathy. In South Korea they announce track and trace notices publically including people attending private appointments they might not want announced.

While its nice to think we could be like these countries the mentality here means we can't.

atilladehun

atilladehun wrote: »

One of the reasons for this is down to privacy laws we have. In Australia, under a different legal system, there is talk of the returning citizens wearing a tag.

My question to you is would you accept a proper track and trace system. One that follows where we go, if we get infected it can match locations and people to our previous days. If we're in a location it can tell us there is someone near who should be isolating and it can also alert the Garda if we are breaking our mandatory isolation. In return for this there would be no lockdown.

For the purpose of this hypothetical I'm going to say it will not be misused by the government or big corporations, though I'm aware of how much big corps know about us already.

Be careful what you wish for. 'Temporary' measures like this would extend indefinitely under the name of 'safety'. If you're fine with your movements and life being tracked, and completely trust those doing it, that's fine. But most people aren't, and don't.

Once you agree to something like this, it's a one-way street and there'll be no going back.

smck321

smck321 wrote: »

In South Africa they banned alcohol and the police beat people to get back in their houses, in Singapore they jail you if you disobey quarantine orders with no fines or sympathy. In South Korea they announce track and trace notices publically including people attending private appointments they might not want announced.

While its nice to think we could be like these countries the mentality here means we can't.

Yeah, that sounds amazing. Sign us up :rolleyes:

LordBasil

atilladehun wrote: »

I agree. Do you trust everyone to isolate if they self test and get a positive result?

Well I would like to think that they would but you can never be 100 percent sure. People generally are considerate and will likely wish to protect others and get the economy/normal life back up and running but unfortunately you will always get a small percentage of selfish, inconsiderate people who don't.

hmmm

Track and trace we are told works well with less than a hundred or so cases. It can't cope with a thousand cases a day.

It particularly can't cope if people on the phone are arguing with the contact tracers, or refusing to get tested. This doesn't happen in Asian countries.

GT89

I would be against both

Loafing Oaf

hmmm wrote: »

Track and trace we are told works well with less than a hundred or so cases. It can't cope with a thousand cases a day.

Yes, general opinion of medical experts is we can't test our way out of the level of spread we have reached over the last few weeks. Aggressive test & trace is for keeping it suppressed once you've got it down to low levels.

SeaBreezes

smck321 wrote: »

The first and sixth countries are thousands of miles away from their closest neighbour, we are half an hour.

The rest have deployed levels of enforcement that if employed here would drive reasonable people to the streets against it.

In South Africa they banned alcohol and the police beat people to get back in their houses, in Singapore they jail you if you disobey quarantine orders with no fines or sympathy. In South Korea they announce track and trace notices publically including people attending private appointments they might not want announced.

While its nice to think we could be like these countries the mentality here means we can't.

Yeah MUCH better to kill off our elderly, possibly sterlise the moderate male cases, and give the bug a population to infect, mutate within, and reinfect with more severity every year....

NZ, Taiwan, Hong Kong Australia, Vietnam, Japan...

Thierry12

hmmm wrote: »

Track and trace we are told works well with less than a hundred or so cases. It can't cope with a thousand cases a day.

It particularly can't cope if people on the phone are arguing with the contact tracers, or refusing to get tested. This doesn't happen in Asian countries.

We had 8 cases a day in the summer

It either works or it doesn't

smck321

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Yeah MUCH better to kill off our elderly, possibly sterlise the moderate male cases, and give the bug a population to infect, mutate within, and reinfect with more severity every year....

NZ, Taiwan, Hong Kong Australia, Vietnam, Japan...

No that would be just silly now trying to twist my words.

But where are you getting the male sterility from I'd love to see that source.

SeaBreezes

smck321 wrote: »

No that would be just silly now trying to twist my words.

But where are you getting the male sterility from I'd love to see that source.

Google israeli study.

smck321

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Google israeli study.

Interesting but I wouldn't go panicing yet. The study said those with mild symptoms (the majority) had no differences. The post mortem analysis of 12 men also showed damage to testicular sperm development sites.

12 men are not enough of a sample size to be conclusive and I doubt many men have sperm analysis pre covid on file making the sample size of moderate and severe cases smaller but (suspiciously) I cannot find the paper or quantification on that. I say suspiciously because the paper wasn't published at time of the articles about it coming out and its missing on pubmed.

But just to be cynical here lets say it does cause a decrease in fertility, so what? Theres nearly 8 billion of us now, 8 billion apex predetors destroying the planet and a few cant have kids. Forgive me if don't break out my copy of children of men.

440Hertz

smck321 wrote: »

The first and sixth countries are thousands of miles away from their closest neighbour, we are half an hour.

The rest have deployed levels of enforcement that if employed here would drive reasonable people to the streets against it.

In South Africa they banned alcohol and the police beat people to get back in their houses, in Singapore they jail you if you disobey quarantine orders with no fines or sympathy. In South Korea they announce track and trace notices publically including people attending private appointments they might not want announced.

While its nice to think we could be like these countries the mentality here means we can't.

We only half an hour if you’re walking in extreme slow motion. You can literally have one foot on either side or an international border. We physically border another jurisdiction and one that has a penchant for laissez faire approaches to pandemic management and a totally unpredictable, often contrarian and irresponsible central government at present.

Graces7

nthclare wrote: »

From my observation.
There's no easy way around this,it's a monumental **** up, of embarrassing proportions.

It's unfair, sad and from the word go it's killing people's world views and spirit.
Not only is this thing infecting people, if people don't catch it one way it's also infecting their minds and hearts.

And from the word go I for one am abiding by the suggestions, but the ****ers who didn't listen to the first suggestions, pricks who went to the races, party's, pub's after GAA wins, slobbering all over each other after, doing their stupid dance and passing around the cup etc

Old people dying and vulnerable etc
Mark my words there will be people found dead in their homes around the country due to fear of clogging up the hospital or they just couldn't cope with it all.

It's not the people who behaved themselves who should be punished, but we're all in this together.

It's the same pricks who ruined it for everyone else, no doubt they're not going to apologize.
Because they're never wrong.

People were happy enough with the stay in your own county situation, but they had to go one step further

What about Old Mick down the road who loves a Sunday drive,bring his flask and sandwiches and sit at a headland, delighted he's still driving at 74.
Locked into 5km at this hour of his life due to pricks who couldn't just for one year one ****ing year do without a party or gathering.

Or aul Sally and Maggie who likes to walk the beach in Fanore but she's 7km away, and at 68 she loves running from her car in her swimsuit on a damp wet day have a dip and run back feeling all fizzy and elated after the cold water..
Yeah you bell ends ruined that too, but ye ****ers have no respect for the rest of us."

Please! Stop this manipulative caricaturing of old folk. Please! Most of us , like myself, understand the situation very well, and why we need to stay home ( and we are not LOCKED In!!!) And we tend to be more resourceful as many of us\ lived with post war conditions. Vulnerable? Up to you.

We will cope; with the help we are getting from community groups. Who have risen to the situation time and again. I know this first hand. Shopping, prescriptions etc ec. Just a phone call away.

There are indeed far too many old folk found dead of hypothermia every winter as "ALONE" attests. If that happens it is OUR FAULT; how many old folk are YOU visiting and checking on? I know my neighbours here are well cared for.

An Post keep a check too now,

NB I don't know anyone who acts as you describe! I still take a walk along the lane here before anyone else is around. lol....

And we know fully that some people being as selfish and obtuse as they are there is NO alternative to lockdown, so we get on with life within that.