Pharmaceuticals rip-off, courtesy of the government

cnocbui

Beconase nasal spray. The active ingredient is Beclomethasone Dipropionate.

In the past, I have been able to get the generic version of a Beconase nasal spray over the internet, but that avenue seems to have been shut down.

I went into a chemist this afternoon and asked if they had a generic version of Beconase. The answer was, no, but they could order it for me onprescription. They can sell Beconase over the counter but you have to have a prescription to be able to buy a cheaper generic version of the same thing.

So yes, you can have the cheaper generic, but that will be €60 for a prescription first, thanks - ka ching! Irish officialdom cuteness at it's finest. Not quite as gobsmaking in it's intended purpose of protecting vested interests as VRT, but close.

Beconase is €11 for a 100 dose spray. The generic you can readily get in the UK is a 200 dose spray for £4, so about a fifth the cost.

endacl

Spin to Newry to stock up?

Once we’re allowed...

cnocbui

That would be a 570 km round trip, taking 6 hours if driving nonstop, and would take about €80 in petrol.

Think I'll pass on that one.

tayto lover

cnocbui wrote: »

That would be a 570 km round trip, taking 6 hours if driving nonstop, and would take about €80 in petrol.

Think I'll pass on that one.

Would they not post it out to you if you ring them?

GerardKeating

tayto lover wrote: »

Would they not post it out to you if you ring them?

As the OP alluded to, such items are getting intercepted in the post.

cnocbui

tayto lover wrote: »

Would they not post it out to you if you ring them?

I doubt it. I was able to get some over the internet in the past, 3-4 at a time, by using a UK foewarding service but I think Paypal are now supplying your country of residence behind your back so the checkout process bombs.

Try ordering innocuous stuff from a chemist in France, the Netherlands or Belgium, and then add a packet of Aspirin. your checkout will bomb. I kid you not, they have to comply with Irish legislation and if you add an economy packet of Aspirin with 40 tablets, or god forbid, more than one packet, your checkout and sale will be rejected.

There are so many exceptions to the 'common market' in the EU, it's a joke

Tom Mann Centuria

Plenty of UK eBay sellers will post here. They don't care! My postal address default is Ireland and there's 2 in the first half a dozen listings that would post what you're looking for here. (Pricey postage but still cheaper)

Obviously you need to check seller credentials and be happy they'll supply the correct product etc.

cnocbui

GerardKeating wrote: »

As the OP alluded to, such items are getting intercepted in the post.

That actually happened to me once for a herbal product. Instead of the packet I paid for, I got a snarky letter from some overpaid civl servant telling me I was a naughty boy and I shouldn't do it again because they are so much smarter than me and need to protect me from myself.

I looked into it and Ireland was the only country out of those in the OECD I checked that didn't allow sale. Available in Australia, NZ, UK, USA, Germany, etc, but Irish experts know better than the medical experts in the rest of the OECD, so who am I to argue?

cnocbui

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Plenty of UK eBay sellers will post here. They don't care! My postal address default is Ireland and there's 2 in the first half a dozen listings that would post what you're looking for here. (Pricey postage but still cheaper)

Obviously you need to check seller credentials and be happy they'll supply the correct product etc.

I know, I looked, but no luck.

L1011

The cost of licencing a drug here is absolutely obscene - hopefully in time we'll just accept other EU countries licences but the UK is not in the EU anymore. Plenty of generics are never sold here at all due to the cost and effort involved.

highdef

cnocbui wrote: »

That would be a 570 km round trip, taking 6 hours if driving nonstop, and would take about €80 in petrol.

Think I'll pass on that one.

So you're saying that (at a conservative level considering current petrol prices at the pump) you are using 64 litres of petrol for your return trip of 570km..... What the hell are you driving?!?

Plode

Check out purepharmacy.ie

They deliver nationwide.

cnocbui

highdef wrote: »

So you're saying that (at a conservative level considering current petrol prices at the pump) you are using 64 litres of petrol for your return trip of 570km..... What the hell are you driving?!?

Civic Type R. Actually, €64 would probably do it.

Darc19

cnocbui wrote: »

I doubt it. I was able to get some over the internet in the past, 3-4 at a time, by using a UK foewarding service but I think Paypal are now supplying your country of residence behind your back so the checkout process bombs.

Try ordering innocuous stuff from a chemist in France, the Netherlands or Belgium, and then add a packet of Aspirin. your checkout will bomb. I kid you not, they have to comply with Irish legislation and if you add an economy packet of Aspirin with 40 tablets, or god forbid, more than one packet, your checkout and sale will be rejected.

There are so many exceptions to the 'common market' in the EU, it's a joke

Your ip address gives your location. - not just country, but local area too.

And whilst it's annoying for something like this, it does protect people as well.



You really think PayPal could be arsed doing this?

cnocbui

Darc19 wrote: »

Your ip address gives your location. - not just country, but local area too.

And whilst it's annoying for something like this, it does protect people as well.



You really think PayPal could be arsed doing this?

Yes, because I tried using a VPN as well.

cnocbui

Plode wrote: »

Check out purepharmacy.ie

They deliver nationwide.

I tried them but no generic as far as I could find and the Beconase was a euro more than my local chemist.

gmisk

There is a big discount pharmacy chain moving into ireland they might be worth a go when they get up and running?
http://chemistwarehouse.ie/
I think I saw signs for it in a retail unit in blanchardstown

Padre_Pio

cnocbui wrote: »

That actually happened to me once for a herbal product. Instead of the packet I paid for, I got a snarky letter from some overpaid civl servant telling me I was a naughty boy and I shouldn't do it again because they are so much smarter than me and need to protect me from myself.

I looked into it and Ireland was the only country out of those in the OECD I checked that didn't allow sale. Available in Australia, NZ, UK, USA, Germany, etc, but Irish experts know better than the medical experts in the rest of the OECD, so who am I to argue?

Pharmacies usually won't ship international. I tried buying Nurofen plus from the UK, no go, they need a UK address, and Parcel Motel won't work.

noodler

How did your doctor write the prescription?

Purely for the brand name?

Poor form, I'd go back and get him to write the medicine chemical ingredient so the pharmacist hands aren't tied or try a different pharmacy.

duffman13

Plode wrote: »

Check out purepharmacy.ie

They deliver nationwide.

They are actually fairly expensive on a lot of OTC medication. They've a cheap tagline on a lot of generic common prescription items but everything else is a mixed bag. Beconase is €7.20 wholesale to pharmacies.

The generic is next to nothing but as mentioned not available without prescription. Personally I have used pharmacy first with parcel motel multiple times with no issues.

https://www.pharmacyfirst.co.uk/triple-pack-beclomethasone-nasal-spray-200-sprays.html

£9.99 for 3 pack and another 3.50 for parcel motel. I buy hay-fever tablets here every year and get 12 months supply for less than £10

Edit: Also meant to mention, if your looking for the prescription version to save the hassle, online doctor is 20 quid and you can get 6 months prescription for it but its probably still 7 or 8 euro for one

cnocbui

noodler wrote: »

How did your doctor write the prescription?

Purely for the brand name?

Poor form, I'd go back and get him to write the medicine chemical ingredient so the pharmacist hands aren't tied or try a different pharmacy.

Beconase is over the counter, I don't have a prescription and won't be getting one because of the cost. The main point of my gripe is Irish legislation that says Beconase can be sold over the counter - a one brand monopoly - but a generic that has the same ingredient as Beconase and is 1/5th the cost (in the UK) requires a prescroption - which defeats the whole point of generics. Irish cutery at it's best.

Apart from having a poor health system, Ireland have been cited internationally for the poor availability of generics, as well as for poor and expensive access to medical consultants. In many other OECD countries, you can go straight to a consultant if you know what's wrong with you, without the deliberate financial friction of going to a GP. At every turn, the Irish government deliberately introduces these financial frictions so as to line the pockets of various interest groups - Chemists, Pharmaceutical companies, GPs, or the government itself. Hello VRT, HSE managers, I'm talking about you.

noodler

cnocbui wrote: »

Beconase is over the counter, I don't have a prescription and won't be getting one because of the cost. The main point of my gripe is Irish legislation that says Beconase can be sold over the counter - a one brand monopoly - but a generic that has the same ingredient as Beconase and is 1/5th the cost (in the UK) requires a prescroption - which defeats the whole point of generics. Irish cutery at it's best.

Apart from having a poor health system, Ireland have been cited internationally for the poor availability of generics, as well as for poor and expensive access to medical consultants. In many other OECD countries, you can go straight to a consultant if you know what's wrong with you, without the deliberate financial friction of going to a GP. At every turn, the Irish government deliberately introduces these financial frictions so as to line the pockets of various interest groups - Chemists, Pharmaceutical companies, GPs, or the government itself. Hello VRT, HSE managers, I'm talking about you.

I can't understand why you'd need a prescription for a generic (or is it a biosimiliar?) But not the originator.

Rest of your post is just aimless ranting

cnocbui

noodler wrote: »

I can't understand why you'd need a prescription for a generic (or is it a biosimiliar?) But not the originator.

Rest of your post is just aimless ranting

Well at least we are in agreement on the central point.

noodler

cnocbui wrote: »

Well at least we are in agreement on the central point.

I hope you tried another pharmacy. I am unsure on the finer points of how much leeweigh our pharmacists have to offer a generic or biosimiliar if the doctor prescription says the original brand

duffman13

noodler wrote: »

I hope you tried another pharmacy. I am unsure on the finer points of how much leeweigh our pharmacists have to offer a generic or biosimiliar if the doctor prescription says the original brand

OPs issue is that the brand is available OTC but the generic version is prescription only despite having the same active ingredient. Its a licensing issue.

noodler

duffman13 wrote: »

OPs issue is that the brand is available OTC but the generic version is prescription only despite having the same active ingredient. Its a licensing issue.

I didn't think such an anomaly was possible unless the generic has a different chemical composition.

That's why I am positing an alternative.

screamer

I’ve noticed OTC medicine prices have been steadily increasing in tandem with prescription costs reducing. I don’t think it’s licensing that’s the issue, someone had to pay for the pharmacists 202 Beemer, and it seems OTC fits the bill.

duffman13

noodler wrote: »

I didn't think such an anomaly was possible unless the generic has a different chemical composition.

That's why I am positing an alternative.

Unfortunately it is. OTC medication is licensed specifically, each individual product has to be licensed. Simple examples like Ibuprofen, Paracetamol, Cetrizine etc are all given individual licenses to specific products. Its why you can get 24p 500mg paracetamol but cheapest you will get down here is about €2 even thought there are 6 or 7 different brands. There are cheaper alternatives available and multiple brands of the above examples but generally, the really cheap stuff isnt available here.

Your comment about generics is specifically related to dispensed items by the pharmacist (In Ireland anyway) where the pharmacist will usually substitute for the cheapest available product as opposed to the brand listed

duffman13

screamer wrote: »

I’ve noticed OTC medicine prices have been steadily increasing in tandem with prescription costs reducing. I don’t think it’s licensing that’s the issue, someone had to pay for the pharmacists 202 Beemer, and it seems OTC fits the bill.

Prescription costs are reducing because pharmacies here have gotten much better at sourcing cheaper generics and using parallel imports. This is the primary revenue for most pharmacies bar maybe Boots. OTC has been steadily increasing though, I will agree there :mad:

noodler

duffman13 wrote: »

Unfortunately it is. OTC medication is licensed specifically, each individual product has to be licensed. Simple examples like Ibuprofen, Paracetamol, Cetrizine etc are all given individual licenses to specific products. Its why you can get 24p 500mg paracetamol but cheapest you will get down here is about €2 even thought there are 6 or 7 different brands. There are cheaper alternatives available and multiple brands of the above examples but generally, the really cheap stuff isnt available here.

Your comment about generics is specifically related to dispensed items by the pharmacist (In Ireland anyway) where the pharmacist will usually substitute for the cheapest available product as opposed to the brand listed

Thanks for answering that.

secondrowgal

Every medicinal product is licensed specifically in Ireland. It's not just OTCs.

I checked the HPRA site and the only Beclometasone nasal spray licensed in Ireland is Beconase. So there doesn't appear to be any generics registered here, and therefore available. I don't know what your pharmacist is talking about.

Also, it's the holder of the licence that requests the dispensing status - it has to be agreed by the HPRA of course, but if the brand leader is OTC you can be sure that the generic licence holder will also want an OTC licence. If this isn't available, then it hasn't been licensed. The government don't control this.

With respect to the cost of licensing medicines in Ireland, Ireland is very reasonable in this regard. For instance to register a generic of Beconase in Ireland would be €10,200. The same registration in the UK could be ~£9K or as much as £25K, depending on the data.

cnocbui

secondrowgal wrote: »

Every medicinal product is licensed specifically in Ireland. It's not just OTCs.

I checked the HPRA site and the only Beclometasone nasal spray licensed in Ireland is Beconase. So there doesn't appear to be any generics registered here, and therefore available. I don't know what your pharmacist is talking about.

Also, it's the holder of the licence that requests the dispensing status - it has to be agreed by the HPRA of course, but if the brand leader is OTC you can be sure that the generic licence holder will also want an OTC licence. If this isn't available, then it hasn't been licensed. The government don't control this.

With respect to the cost of licensing medicines in Ireland, Ireland is very reasonable in this regard. For instance to register a generic of Beconase in Ireland would be €10,200. The same registration in the UK could be ~£9K or as much as £25K, depending on the data.

So the cost to register here is about 13 times as much as in the UK, factoring in the market size. I don't know what my pharmacists knowledge base is, I was just relating what she said.

The government is always in control of the costs of these things. We are in the EU, a supposedly common market, there is no logical reason to not just accept the licencing elsewhere in the EU, rather than reinvent the wheel for such a tiny market.

Of course doing that would require fewer public servants, so we can't have that.

The Hound Gone Wild

The generic is called Nasobec & is approximately the same price as OTC Beconase, so I don't know what your issue is.

Source: I'm a Pharmacist

cnocbui

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

The generic is called Nasobec & is approximately the same price as OTC Beconase, so I don't know what your issue is.

Source: I'm a Pharmacist

Is Nasobec available OTC?

You don't see a problem with a generic costing the same as the formerly proprietary?

My problem is being prevented from purchasing the generic version of an OTC medication from the UK that is one fifth of the price of Beconase in Ireland.

The Hound Gone Wild

cnocbui wrote: »

Is Nasobec available OTC?

You don't see a problem with a generic costing the same as the formerly proprietary?

My problem is being prevented from purchasing the generic version of an OTC medication from the UK that is one fifth of the price of Beconase in Ireland.

It's not, it's cheaper. The difference is made up due to a dispensing fee charged by the Pharmacy.

cnocbui

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

It's not, it's cheaper. The difference is made up due to a dispensing fee charged by the Pharmacy.

Sounds like a line straight from 'yes minister'.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair

Geuze

Can we have a situation where if it is approved/licenced for the EU / UK, then it is automatically approved for Irl?

I want a situation where Tesco can automatically, and with no Govt regulation, sell whatever they sell in NI, down here.

cnocbui

Geuze wrote: »

Can we have a situation where if it is approved/licenced for the EU / UK, then it is automatically approved for Irl?

I want a situation where Tesco can automatically, and with no Govt regulation, sell whatever they sell in NI, down here.

Of course we could. Have you ever caught a plane too or from Ireland or driven a car? Well AFAIK, the Irish government doesn't require every model of plane using an Irish airport, to be certified in this country, and the same with cars on Irish roads.

Darc19

cnocbui wrote: »

So the cost to register here is about 13 times as much as in the UK, factoring in the market size. I don't know what my pharmacists knowledge base is, I was just relating what she said.

The government is always in control of the costs of these things. We are in the EU, a supposedly common market, there is no logical reason to not just accept the licencing elsewhere in the EU, rather than reinvent the wheel for such a tiny market.

Of course doing that would require fewer public servants, so we can't have that.

The reason for this I read before is that people in different European countries have different reactions to different drugs.

I always thought that a central European system would be best until I read the fairly detailed paper on it, though a joint irish / uk system probably would be a good idea.

Maybe a pharmacist could provide more information?

paddy19

Darc19 wrote: »

The reason for this I read before is that people in different European countries have different reactions to different drugs.

This sounds interesting, have you got a reference?

Darc19

paddy19 wrote: »

This sounds interesting, have you got a reference?

It was a discussion on radio. Either newstalk or rte1.

Fairly indepth and made sense when you thought about it.

But can't give any link.

This story mentions the issue
https://www.thesun.ie/news/3355040/spain-bans-brit-and-irish-tourists-from-buying-common-painkiller-after-the-deaths-of-ten-holidaymakers-caused-by-genetic-peculiarities/

odyssey06

Darc19 wrote: »

The reason for this I read before is that people in different European countries have different reactions to different drugs.
I always thought that a central European system would be best until I read the fairly detailed paper on it, though a joint irish / uk system probably would be a good idea.
Maybe a pharmacist could provide more information?

In light of EU intrastate migration that seems a bit questionable... would an Irish gp or pharmacist know not go give a Pole a particular med?

Darc19

odyssey06 wrote: »

In light of EU intrastate migration that seems a bit questionable... would an Irish gp or pharmacist know not go give a Pole a particular med?

I'm not a medic nor have any knowledge in field


Put this into Google and it will give more detailed information

CH Topic E 5 (R1)
Ethnic Factors in the Acceptability of Foreign Clinical Data

cnocbui

Darc19 wrote: »

I'm not a medic nor have any knowledge in field


Put this into Google and it will give more detailed information

CH Topic E 5 (R1)
Ethnic Factors in the Acceptability of Foreign Clinical Data

That document seems mostly aimed at global populations and characterises the broad ethnicities being referenced as Black, Caucasian and Asian. Only one of these is really applicable to Europe so this document is not supporting a genetic or ethnic differention within Europe that would warrant not having a pan European drug certification regime.

odyssey06

cnocbui wrote: »

That document seems mostly aimed at global populations and characterises the broad ethnicities being referenced as Black, Caucasian and Asian. Only one of these is really applicable to Europe so this document is not supporting a genetic or ethnic differention within Europe that would warrant not having a pan European drug certification regime.

I can't imagine in the US or Australia for example, doctors considering whether someone is of Irish, Greek, German, Polish, Italian ancestry differently in prescribing meds... I have never heard of anything along those lines.

Whether they are Cauacasian, Asian, Black sure.

Hotblack Desiato

It's funny when the best reference which can be found to back up a proposition is The Sun.