Gyms

Macu17ab

rockatansky wrote: »

Shocking turn of events!

He got what he wanted, his visit from the Gardai, now towing the line and some nice free publicity for his Gym.

The very least a tax-paying gym owner could hope for after hemorrhaging revenue this year.

cdeb

Macu17ab wrote: »

At home, I have no boxing bag to do what I find the most beneficial to me - release through impact. I also have no space at home to install one.

My teammates aren't here pushing me when I get winded, and my coach certainly isn't commenting on my form. I have nothing to punch, kick, or interact with.

I find jogging to be a massive chore, and quite regularly struggle to work up the motivation to do it. You can't tell me I can exercise at home when the type of exercise that I enjoy is not possible here.

That's unfortunate. It really is. But "the type of exercise I enjoy" is not really a necessity right now. The fact is that exercise outside is very doable. As I've said many times here, how do you think people managed before gyms came along? How can you substitute this training at home? Maybe you can't. Is that really a problem for a few weeks? Maybe you can try out something new in the meantime?

I don't think you can argue that gyms are the "root cause of precisely 0 cases" when someone on this thread has said they're aware of one person who contracted the disease from a gym contact.

Gym inspectors aren't an answer for a number of reasons (it's an extra pointless admin cost, you'll have calls for pub inspectors and cinema inspectors and café inspectors so they can stay open, word can spread that they're coming and so gyms might temporarily tighten up on measures, etc)

Ultimately you (and I) aren't experts on this and how it transmits. It's only natural to think that, in your own space that you know and are comfortable with, you are safe. But senior medical personnel are saying that's not the case - it's an indoor venue, and indoor transmission is a problem. So if you're going to go against senior professional medical advice - not just in Ireland, but worldwide - then I think the onus is on you to show why that should be the case. And again, "Ah sure I wipe the surface down after me; be grand" isn't a reason.

rockatansky

rockatansky wrote: »

Shocking turn of events!

He got what he wanted, his visit from the Gardai, now towing the line and some nice free publicity for his Gym.

Indeed......... puts up a spiel saying that the industry didn't back him.

Didn’t even last until lunchtime which was my initial prediction, just looks like a fool now.

rockatansky

Macu17ab wrote: »

The very least a tax-paying gym owner could hope for after hemorrhaging revenue this year.

Should have pushed for a fine, then gone the Go Fund Me page route. Need 5k to pay it but get 25k in pledges and a 2 fingers to the Government.

Macu17ab

cdeb wrote: »

That's unfortunate. It really is. But "the type of exercise I enjoy" is not really a necessity right now. The fact is that exercise outside is very doable. As I've said many times here, how do you think people managed before gyms came along? How can you substitute this training at home? Maybe you can't. Is that really a problem for a few weeks? Maybe you can try out something new in the meantime?

I don't think you can argue that gyms are the "root cause of precisely 0 cases" when someone on this thread has said they're aware of one person who contracted the disease from a gym contact.

Gym inspectors aren't an answer for a number of reasons (it's an extra pointless admin cost, you'll have calls for pub inspectors and cinema inspectors and café inspectors so they can stay open, word can spread that they're coming and so gyms might temporarily tighten up on measures, etc)

Ultimately you (and I) aren't experts on this and how it transmits. It's only natural to think that, in your own space that you know and are comfortable with, you are safe. But senior medical personnel are saying that's not the case - it's an indoor venue, and indoor transmission is a problem. So if you're going to go against senior professional medical advice - not just in Ireland, but worldwide - then I think the onus is on you to show why that should be the case. And again, "Ah sure I wipe the surface down after me; be grand" isn't a reason.

See, I've been regularly physically active since I was 6 years old. Karate, Taekwondo, Bjj, Muay thai, a spat of being a gym-rat, rugby - I know what works for me and doesn't - and I'm telling you, I'm struggling to stay fit during lockdown because I am not enjoying workouts at home. I have tried loads of things, and it is more of a chore for the upkeep of my physical fitness and there is no real enjoyment being gained from it. Enjoyment = the mental health boost we're all talking about.

And why say no to gym inspectors? They don't have to be limited to the gym - just general inspectors. Surely the admin cost of having them around outweighs the tax revenue brought in by these gyms, along with the social benefit?

Regarding cases, I began my sentence with "We" as in referring to my gym specifically, I'll assume that was a simple oversight.

They are indoor events, theoretically more likely to be a transmission ground for the virus - but I'm not concerned with theory, show me the proof that they have contributed significantly to the spread of the virus while being open.

yourdeadwright

One thing that has makes me laugh is how many the gym owners or personally trainers In the last 3 years have become mental health experts ,Some of them mention it in every post about there gym or workouts ,

Now its being used as the reason gyms should be open, If your a gym owner or personal trainer and are peddling this your doing people a disservice,

There are other ways to train and other ways to cope with your mental health,

If you cared about your clients you would be letting them know that they can burn off steam and exercise out side of the gym and that a gym is just a convenient way to do it but they should be preparing to exercise at home or outside to continue staying fit . Stop making them feel like there losing the way they have ,

cdeb

KennisWhale wrote: »

My key point is that the risk associated with gyms (of which we have no actual evidence in any event) are negated by the health benefits.

But the health benefits can be achieved elsewhere, without the risk of indoor spread.

KennisWhale wrote: »

In those HPSC reports, they began counting on 20 March, 7 months ago, so that is the time period we are working with.

So the entire timeframe of covid in Ireland. Seems the best timeframe to go with to me?

KennisWhale wrote: »

(1) These are people "with" covid, not necessarily hospitalised "because of" covid.

Proof of this? Putting "with" in inverted commas doesn't negate the effects of covid.

KennisWhale wrote: »

There is no age breakdown for this stat but out of the total "with" covid deaths for Ireland, 94.05% had underlying clinical conditions when they died.

(a) "Underlying health conditions" is very broad when it includes asthma, diabetes and obesity. Probably 40% of the country has an underlying health condition by that definition.
(b) Again, this isn't a binary outcome. You don't just die or be grand.

KennisWhale wrote: »

I think it is not clear that long covid applies to healthy people who contracted covid, but more likely relates to those who were at risk anyway and caught it.

I don't see any evidence of that. It looks at the effects on people who were hospitalised. Of course, most will have underlying health conditions, but that doesn't mean none didn't.

KennisWhale wrote: »

Further, from a quick read of some of the links in the Wiki article, I notice that the data seems to be anecdotal, coming from people themselves claiming they felt so-called long covid effects.

Do you honestly think a Lancet summarising the findings of 15 doctors dealing with post covid effects is "anecdotal"? Or that following up on 143 patients hospitalised in Italy and asking about their after effects is anecdotal?

(Hint - it's not.)

KennisWhale wrote: »

Nonetheless, from your link, look at the risk factors for "Long Covid";

Age – particularly those aged over 50
Being a woman
Excess weight
Asthma
Having more than 5 symptoms in the first week of COVID-19 infection (e.g. cough, fatigue, headache, diarrhoea, loss of sense of smell).

I think there is one noticeable risk factor which the gym can definitely help with, but asthma is another risk factor for which swimming is highly recommended and gyms can help with this.

So the gym can't help with the majority of risk factors for long term covid? And outdoor exercise can help with obesity.

Still sounds like gyms aren't absolutely essential.

skinny90

Macu17ab wrote: »

cdeb wrote: »

The benefits of exercise are indeed huge.

It can be achieved outside the gym though. That's the key point.


At home, I have no boxing bag to do what I find the most beneficial to me - release through impact. I also have no space at home to install one.

My teammates aren't here pushing me when I get winded, and my coach certainly isn't commenting on my form. I have nothing to punch, kick, or interact with.

I find jogging to be a massive chore, and quite regularly struggle to work up the motivation to do it. You can't tell me I can exercise at home when the type of exercise that I enjoy is not possible here.

We are socially distancing at my gym, wearing masks, and not sparring whatsoever. Keeping numbers low, and are the root cause of precisely 0 cases.

Please explain to me how I can substitute this training at home, and if you can't - give one good reason why my gym specifically should be closed? And I say specifically because blanket measures lack any insight. Send out gym inspectors for surprise visits and fine the offenders, but don't screw over my gym, a grass roots Muay Thai club which could very well not exist by the time lockdown ends.

im with you on the running part, I hate it, but im gonna just get through it for the next 6 weeks.
On everything else id set up an online group to see what can be achieved with no equipment, I do use an app that has a lot of exercises that dont require equipment

Thelonious Monk

And people saying "my gym is ok so it should be open", well mine certainly isn't as I've explained already. It's like letting some pubs open and some not, it just wont work.
We are not living in normal times.

cdeb

Macu17ab wrote: »

See, I've been regularly physically active since I was 6 years old. Karate, Taekwondo, Bjj, Muay thai, a spat of being a gym-rat, rugby - I know what works for me and doesn't - and I'm telling you, I'm struggling to stay fit during lockdown because I am not enjoying workouts at home. I have tried loads of things, and it is more of a chore for the upkeep of my physical fitness and there is no real enjoyment being gained from it. Enjoyment = the mental health boost we're all talking about.

All of that is very unfortunate, but it's also a bit selfish to be quite honest. You aren't the key person in all this.

Macu17ab wrote: »

And why say no to gym inspectors?

I've already said why. And I could add the general movement risk of people travelling to gyms (or other venues, if you want to expand their remit) - greater public transport usage for example.

Macu17ab wrote: »

They are indoor events, theoretically more likely to be a transmission ground for the virus - but I'm not concerned with theory, show me the proof that they have contributed significantly to the spread of the virus while being open.

And I've already answered this too. If senior health professionals worldwide are saying there's an increased risk of indoor transmission - in the case of gyms, from heavy breathing resulting in infected particles being spread over various surfaces - then that's good enough for me. The onus is on someone to come along and prove otherwise, because senior medical professionals arguing for something is a bloody strong argument.

Thelonious Monk

Macu17ab wrote: »

im with you on the running part, I hate it, but im gonna just get through it for the next 5 weeks.
On everything else id set up an online group to see what can be achieved with no equipment, I do use an app that has a lot of exercises that dont require equipment

I hated it too and only started this year during last lockdown at the age of 39. Now I quite like it. Best to start off as slow as you can and build it up so you don't injure yourself.

cdeb

Nobotty wrote: »

The hospitalised age breakdown is here

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/30e1c-statement-from-the-national-public-health-emergency-team-thursday-15-october/#hospital-statistics

That seems to be the same info as I was looking at though.

50% of (cumulative) hospitalisations in under 65s. 60% of ICU admissions.

In fairness, I think we're broadly agreeing with each other on this topic. You're right to say it's "relatively" harmless to under 65s (or under 55s, as you changed to here! ) But that doesn't mean it's "pretty" harmless, as Kennis is claiming.

Macu17ab

cdeb wrote: »

All of that is very unfortunate, but it's also a bit selfish to be quite honest. You aren't the key person in all this.


I've already said why. And I could add the general movement risk of people travelling to gyms (or other venues, if you want to expand their remit) - greater public transport usage for example.


And I've already answered this too. If senior health professionals worldwide are saying there's an increased risk of indoor transmission - in the case of gyms, from heavy breathing resulting in infected particles being spread over various surfaces - then that's good enough for me. The onus is on someone to come along and prove otherwise, because senior medical professionals arguing for something is a bloody strong argument.

Calling my concerns for my own wellbeing selfish, when these concerns are universally applicable to a huge number of people - some on this thread, is a bit back-handed.

Following theory as opposed to following evidence and experience is not something that really makes sense, is it - You'll have all the theoretical knowledge available from your masters but the guy with the industry experience will get the role. Just because the people who have the power to enforce these changes should not put the onus on me to to prove anything with my limited resources when all that I want is a policy that makes logical sense.

The WHO has advocated that lockdown measures should be used to get our house in order to prepare hospitals and labs for contact tracing, treatment, etc. We are simply reacting to rising case numbers in a panicked state and kicking the can 6 weeks down the road.

You can read about the WHO's opinion on lockdown at the bottom of this link:

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/herd-immunity-lockdowns-and-covid-19#

KennisWhale

cdeb wrote: »

But the health benefits can be achieved elsewhere, without the risk of indoor spread.


So the entire timeframe of covid in Ireland. Seems the best timeframe to go with to me?


Proof of this? Putting "with" in inverted commas doesn't negate the effects of covid.


(a) "Underlying health conditions" is very broad when it includes asthma, diabetes and obesity. Probably 40% of the country has an underlying health condition by that definition.
(b) Again, this isn't a binary outcome. You don't just die or be grand.



I don't see any evidence of that. It looks at the effects on people who were hospitalised. Of course, most will have underlying health conditions, but that doesn't mean none didn't.


Do you honestly think a Lancet summarising the findings of 15 doctors dealing with post covid effects is "anecdotal"? Or that following up on 143 patients hospitalised in Italy and asking about their after effects is anecdotal?

(Hint - it's not.)


So the gym can't help with the majority of risk factors for long term covid? And outdoor exercise can help with obesity.

Still sounds like gyms aren't absolutely essential.

So you ignore the numbers of ICU patients and deaths? Why? Objectively, 125 people dying "with" covid in 7 months is f-all. The fact you are ignoring this is telling when you are so eager to deconstruct everything else.

The other point, is on the last part of your post; so because the gym cannot help with the long covid risk factors of your age, they are not essential? They need to help with all risk factors in order to be essential? Wow, if you find a place that can help reduce obesity and make me younger, sign me up.

Alf Veedersane

Macu17ab wrote: »

See, I've been regularly physically active since I was 6 years old. Karate, Taekwondo, Bjj, Muay thai, a spat of being a gym-rat, rugby - I know what works for me and doesn't - and I'm telling you, I'm struggling to stay fit during lockdown because I am not enjoying workouts at home. I have tried loads of things, and it is more of a chore for the upkeep of my physical fitness and there is no real enjoyment being gained from it. Enjoyment = the mental health boost we're all talking about.

And why say no to gym inspectors? They don't have to be limited to the gym - just general inspectors. Surely the admin cost of having them around outweighs the tax revenue brought in by these gyms, along with the social benefit?

Regarding cases, I began my sentence with "We" as in referring to my gym specifically, I'll assume that was a simple oversight.

They are indoor events, theoretically more likely to be a transmission ground for the virus - but I'm not concerned with theory, show me the proof that they have contributed significantly to the spread of the virus while being open.

A gym inspector paid by a gym will find no problem in said gym.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The limitations of contact tracing are the reason that they cannot link community transmission to a particular source. Phillip Nolan admitted that back in September.

That's not saying they are creating an issue. It's just saying that the evidence to support the stance that transmission doesn't happen in gyms is weak because if the limitations of contact tracing.

I love the gym. I will miss going. Do I think it makes sense that they be closed? Yes.

It reads like you're setting yourself up to not enjoy anything other than what you normally do. Not saying that that is your mindset but that's how it reads.

There are more than enough options for you to do work that will ultimately stand to you when you get back to the gym to do your training. You just have to reframe your thinking. You can do nothing because it's not what you want to be doing and be miles away from where you should be when you go back or you can see it as keeping as close to where you are right now as possible.

I completely understand how you feel about not being able to do the training you want. But just throwing the baby out with the bathwater and saying "I won't enjoy it" won't help you. Look at what you can do and what will help you when you go back because that helps you view what you do through a more positive prism.

bb1234567

The point about gyms mental/health benefits outweighing covid effects seems simplistic and self centred point of view. It outweights the risk for you. Obviously not somebody you might pass it onto outside the gym. The people who's covid risk is theoretically cancelled out by some weekly exercise are not the group of people who we were worried about catching covid in the first place anyway

Nobotty

cdeb wrote: »

That seems to be the same info as I was looking at though.

50% of (cumulative) hospitalisations in under 65s. 60% of ICU admissions.

In fairness, I think we're broadly agreeing with each other on this topic. You're right to say it's "relatively" harmless to under 65s (or under 55s, as you changed to here! ) But that doesn't mean it's "pretty" harmless, as Kennis is claiming.

To be fair though,you or I or Kennis could extrapolate anything and not be right
For instance not counted in those or any statistics is how harmless it is if people follow guidelines as rigidly as they should
But you could assume its the reason most people haven't been very ill from it so far
That and the relatively small affects it has on under 45s and the vulnerable skills at avoiding it ,(nursing homes excepted)

I would not regard a small space unventilated with more than 6 people sweating profusely safe enough for me
The Who said test test test
Gyms could open,some anyway with a rigorous inspect inspect inspect policy IMO

bb1234567

KennisWhale wrote: »

So you ignore the numbers of ICU patients and deaths? Why? Objectively, 125 people dying "with" covid in 7 months is f-all. The fact you are ignoring this is telling when you are so eager to deconstruct everything else.

The other point, is on the last part of your post; so because the gym cannot help with the long covid risk factors of your age, they are not essential? They need to help with all risk factors in order to be essential? Wow, if you find a place that can help reduce obesity and make me younger, sign me up.

That number is small because transmission has been heavily restricted in Ireland. 45,000 people under 65 have died of covid in the United States, of course tens of millions of young Americans have likely contracted covid and come out perfectly fine, so the risk isn't high, but it's not non existent for the under 65 age group. But it's beside the point, the gyms arent' being closed to protect those who go to gyms, who are overwhelmingly young and fit people.

Age is the absolute risk factor. Those who are most at risk arent' going to gyms in the first place and nor are they going lose out on any significant amount of risk reduction from covid by missing 6 weeks in the gym even if they were to attend.

cdeb

Macu17ab wrote: »

Calling my concerns for my own wellbeing selfish, when these concerns are universally applicable to a huge number of people - some on this thread, is a bit back-handed.

I don't think it is in fairness. It's the definition of selfishness to think your own need - for some very specific form of exercise - outweighs the general health of the nation. If everyone thought that way, we'd have a big problem.

KennisWhale wrote: »

So you ignore the numbers of ICU patients and deaths? Why? Objectively, 125 people dying "with" covid in 7 months is f-all. The fact you are ignoring this is telling when you are so eager to deconstruct everything else.

I'm not ignoring them. First off though, I'd again ask for proof of your scepticism that people are mis-disgnosed (the inverted commas around "with") But part of the reason so few people have died is because of the measures we're taking to stop people dying. It's also because hospitals can give some treatment to everyone to help them through at the moment, even in terms of oxygen therapy or respirators. If hospitals get flooded, then you have what you saw in Italy in March where people are dying in droves because they've no access to any treatment.

But your claim was that covid is "pretty harmless" to under 65s. I don't disagree that very few people under 65 die of covid. But I wanted to expand your focus beyond the black-and-white world of dying/not dying, which is why I brought in long-term side effects. Which you now want to move away from because, once you realise that actual summaries of doctor reports in the field isn't "anecdotal", you haven't really got anything.

KennisWhale wrote: »

The other point, is on the last part of your post; so because the gym cannot help with the long covid risk factors of your age, they are not essential? They need to help with all risk factors in order to be essential? Wow, if you find a place that can help reduce obesity and make me younger, sign me up.

Gyms help spread the virus. It's an indoor environment where people are breathing heavily over various surfaces.

Spreading the virus is bad.

You can keep fit outside a gym.

I'm not sure how much more simple I can make this.

omegaodie

bb1234567 wrote: »

That number is small because transmission has been heavily restricted in Ireland. 45,000 people under 65 have died of covid in the United States, of course tens of millions of young Americans have likely contracted covid and come out perfectly fine, so the risk isn't high, but it's not non existent for the under 65 age group. But it's beside the point, the gyms arent' being closed to protect those who go to gyms, who are overwhelmingly young and fit people.

Age is the absolute risk factor. Those who are most at risk arent' going to gyms in the first place and nor are they going lose out on any significant amount of risk reduction from covid by missing 6 weeks in the gym even if they were to attend.

I often hear correlation is not causation, so those 45000 people under 65 who died with (or within a month or two of having it) covid, did not necessarily die because of covid. For all we know a quarter, half or nearly all of those deaths might have had nothing to do with the virus. Could be all of them died exclusively because they contracted it, but for me "could be" isn't enough to house arrest an entire nation.

bb1234567

omegaodie wrote: »

I often hear correlation is not causation, so those 45000 people under 65 who died with (or within a month or two of having it) covid, did not necessarily die because of covid. For all we know a quarter, half or nearly all of those deaths might have had nothing to do with the virus. Could be all of them died exclusively because they contracted it, but for me "could be" isn't enough to house arrest an entire nation.

Extremely unlikely given excess deaths in the US are 300k above normal(85k higher than confirmed deaths), and among all age groups over 30. You might say suicide, missed surgery is contributing to that excess related to lockdown in the US, but then I'd ask why are our excess deaths here in Ireland lower than our confirmed death toll and not higher like in the US? Given that we've had far more restrictive lockdown and other rules enforced, with much greater impact on general healthcare than in the US. So your argument really falls down there, in fact it's not supported by any evidence whatsoever.

So..correlation is not causation, sure, what is causing 45,000 extra people under 65 in the US to die than normal since the pandemic began? Any wisdom you'd like to impart upon us, should be interesting

Thelonious Monk

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/gym-closing-level-7-covid-19-5240833-Oct2020/

Good article on mental health being flung around to keep gyms open

silverharp

Young FG will hopefully get on to old FG about this. My local cake shop Butler's Pantry is open but I cant go the gym

https://twitter.com/yfg/status/1319009751825567749

hynesie08

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/gym-closing-level-7-covid-19-5240833-Oct2020/

Good article on mental health being flung around to keep gyms open

What a condescending pile of ****e. I agree that westside was a publicity, but that reads like a secondary school essay......... "the gym isn't that important to me, therefore it is not important"

Thelonious Monk

Well I think the point is it shouldn't be that important to anyone, you need balance in life and a calm mind. The gym may not be available or you may not be able to train your whole life, so focus on being content no matter what the circumstances.

silverharp

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well I think the point is it shouldn't be that important to anyone, you need balance in life and a calm mind. The gym may not be available or you may not be able to train your whole life, so focus on being content no matter what the circumstances.

while that might be true, if said in the wrong context at the moment it comes across a little like let them eat cake, which ironically you actually can as all the cake shops are open :pac:

Alf Veedersane

hynesie08 wrote: »

What a condescending pile of ****e. I agree that westside was a publicity, but that reads like a secondary school essay......... "the gym isn't that important to me, therefore it is not important"

Except your paraphrasing of the premise is entirely wrong given that she said "It’s a key part of my mental health routine".

Mental health has been been used, not just by gym, as being the reason to not impose restrictions in different areas.

Her point is that although it's important to her, it's not a cure. If your mental health is entirely dependent on access to the gym then you need to see someone.

You can make that point and still appreciate the positive impact of going to the gym; they're not mutually exclusive.

Mitch Connor

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well I think the point is it shouldn't be that important to anyone, you need balance in life and a calm mind. The gym may not be available or you may not be able to train your whole life, so focus on being content no matter what the circumstances.

... and people have used the gym to bring that balance and calm mind, and it has now been taken away.

Thelonious Monk

Mitch Connor wrote: »

... and people have used the gym to bring that balance and calm mind, and it has now been taken away.

Well they're not doing very well if they're solely reliant on the gym, if that's the case the gym isn't working. You need to branch out and find other things to calm your mind. Meditate, read books on mindfulness, the goal of any human should be to be able to sit in silence and just be present and to be happy in any circumstances.