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VW ID.3 vs Kia eNiro (vs Tesla Model 3)

  • 20-10-2020 7:32am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ jasonc5432


    Hi folks

    I come to beg you to share your views and expertise. I'm not gonna lie to you, I literally cannot choose between the VW ID.3 and the Kia eNiro. I'm definitely getting an EV before end of year 2020. In normal times I would potentially need to do an average of 2 long commutes per week (225km round trip). During current times I doubt I'll have any long commutes worth speaking of for at least a year or two. I don't have kids or plan to. I have test driven both cars and love both for different reasons. It has to be a new car.

    Please help me make what is a difficult decision and an expensive one too.

    Also, I am open to being convinced about the Tesla Model 3 as an option but I can't spend over 50k euro before grants.

    Your views are very much appreciated folks!

    By the way I'm completely new to EVs and have found all of your views on Boards invaluable recently as I try to make the right purchase.

    Thanks for your help


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    jasonc5432 wrote: »

    Also, I am open to being convinced about the Tesla Model 3 as an option but I can't spend over 50k euro before grants.

    Thanks for your help

    Well, it's not a bad decision to have to make or a bad place to be in :D

    I have kids and own a Model 3, and still find it a very spacious/practical car.
    I will caveat that you cannot load big things into the booth, as the opening is not as big as the Kia/ID3 as they are hatchbacks. But I don't load big things into my booth, my bikes and a double buggy and it all fits, so i'm happy.

    I guess it's down to personal taste if practically is not an issue, I don't like the shape of SUVs. If the ID3 was out back when I got my car, I may well have bought one (and forgiven VW).

    If you like tech -> Model 3, ID3 is a little glitchy as it's new but improving. Cannot comment on KIA.
    If you like actual buttons, don't get a Model 3 :)
    If you like frantic acceleration and speed -> All are quick, but Model 3 win the race
    Practicality: Kia/ID3//Model 3

    Good luck with your decision!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ jasonc5432


    Thanks for your reply mate. Is there a model 3 available for 50k or under before grants? I find EV pricing lists generally confusing in this regard.

    People tell me to avoid Tesla because:
    - No after sales
    - No physical dealerships
    - expensive to repair/maintain

    I don't know if any of that is true. If you have any thoughts I'd be very appreciative


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    jasonc5432 wrote: »
    Thanks for your reply mate. Is there a model 3 available for 50k or under before grants? I find EV pricing lists generally confusing in this regard.

    People tell me to avoid Tesla because:
    - No after sales
    - No physical dealerships
    - expensive to repair/maintain

    I don't know if any of that is true. If you have any thoughts I'd be very appreciative

    Not before the grants no, but after grant is applied the price is:
    €46,782. In relation to the other things:
    • No after sales -> For what like? Buying extras etc? I have had no problems at all in 9 months, so cannot comment on support etc, but they have Rangers that come to your location and can fix most things. Other owners on the Model 3 forum seem happy enough.
    • No physical dealerships -> There is one in Sandyford, I live in Dublin so if walking into a dealership close to you is important, than this is not ideal unless u are close to Dublin.
    • Expensive to repair/maintain -> Yes, it is more expensive as it's a pricier car. I would note -> being an EV it will have low maintenance costs in general!


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ jasonc5432


    jusmeig wrote: »
    Not before the grants no, but after grant is applied the price is:
    €46,782. In relation to the other things:
    • No after sales -> For what like? Buying extras etc? I have had no problems at all in 9 months, so cannot comment on support etc, but they have Rangers that come to your location and can fix most things. Other owners on the Model 3 forum seem happy enough.
    • No physical dealerships -> There is one in Sandyford, I live in Dublin so if walking into a dealership close to you is important, than this is not ideal unless u are close to Dublin.
    • Expensive to repair/maintain -> Yes, it is more expensive as it's a pricier car. I would note -> being an EV it will have low maintenance costs in general!


    That's very informative. I have always always wanted a Tesla since the first Model S to be honest. So if you are saying that the price is circa 56k before grants then unfortunately the dream is unobtainable for a few years yet at least?

    I did see the circa 46k price on the tesla website but I struggle to make sense of EV pricing because different brands seem to list their prices differently


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    jasonc5432 wrote: »
    That's very informative. I have always always wanted a Tesla since the first Model S to be honest. So if you are saying that the price is circa 56k before grants then unfortunately the dream is unobtainable for a few years yet at least?

    I did see the circa 46k price on the tesla website but I struggle to make sense of EV pricing because different brands seem to list their prices differently

    In the bottom left of the site toggle to CASH, and then click on estimate payment, and you get a breakdown.

    Cash Price
    € 46,782
    Includes VAT of approx. € 8,499
    Includes destination and documentation fee of € 980
    Includes Vehicle Registration Tax of € 2,812
    Includes SEAI grant of - € 5,000


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    €51,782 -> Before the grant...you can swing it.
    They have decent finance with AIB, probably helped a lot of us out...


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    This might be useful, or not.

    Tesla M3 vs Kia e-Niro, tldr alert
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110877337

    A couple of things have changed since then. I got my M3LR in March, and it's now done 19,000km. I love it even more than I expected. The most unexpectedly best thing is how nice it is at very low speed, e.g. crawling through towns.

    It's also great to "camp" in, e.g. when I take my kids to sports training or matches far away, I can just sit comfily for an hour watching Netflix or whatever and it doesn't "turn off" like our other car, a Kia Sportage. I actually think this is something worth testing in any EV, it's not something to take for granted and depends on how the low and high voltage batteries are connected and managed.

    Also since then the ID.3 has come along, and it seems better that I'd expected. Importantly, it has reasonably priced access to Ionity, which for both the Kia and Tesla is extortionately expensive (79c/kWh). Now that is arguably a price worth bearing in the Tesla, when you're charging at 100-150kW for 20 mins or so. But in an e-Niro, spending an hour sitting charging and getting a €45 bill is completely unacceptable IMO.

    So I think the VW now has the edge over the Kia due to charging speed and cheaper access to Ionity, but I haven't thought about this too deeply.

    It also might be worth waiting for a Chinese Model 3 SR+, because the LFP battery is happier being held near 100%, so you get to use more of the range more of the time. It actually makes the LR seem bad value or completely redundant, because I tend to avoid charging that to more than 80%, which gives almost the same capacity as the SR+ at 100%.

    I still love the power and AWD of the LR though, and because it does lots of planned 300km+ days where I can schedule departure charging to 95%, I do make use of almost all of the range.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    No comparison, get the m3


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    ELM327 wrote: »
    No comparison, get the m3
    You could summarize all my posts into that one short line :D
    I'm just delighted to see more EVs on the roads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ jasonc5432


    jusmeig wrote: »
    €51,782 -> Before the grant...you can swing it.
    They have decent finance with AIB, probably helped a lot of us out...

    Thanks again for this information. Unfortunately, if the pre-grants price is anything above 50k euro, it is outside of my budget. I have gotten used to talking in pre-grant prices because I had a chat with a sales rep once who was talking about a price of 51k, but that turned out to be after the grants.

    I wish the Tesla model 3, pre grant price, was below 50k but it looks like it is outside my budget sadly.

    However, this does mean that it seems to be between the ID.3 and the eNiro. It is a very difficult choice


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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    jasonc5432 wrote: »
    However, this does mean that it seems to be between the ID.3 and the eNiro. It is a very difficult choice
    I don't think it is a difficult choice.

    The ID.3 is a technically superior car as it's RWD and charges faster. The icing on the cake is cheaper Ionity charging.

    The specifics of range, performance and trim depend on what options you pick on the ID.3. I haven't looked at the options list much but I think it has things like LED matrix headlights which are not available on the Kia AFAIK.

    As I see it the Kia is a good car but the ID.3 is better, but I guess the value for money will depend on how you spec the ID.3.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    jasonc5432 wrote: »
    Thanks again for this information. Unfortunately, if the pre-grants price is anything above 50k euro, it is outside of my budget. I have gotten used to talking in pre-grant prices because I had a chat with a sales rep once who was talking about a price of 51k, but that turned out to be after the grants.

    I wish the Tesla model 3, pre grant price, was below 50k but it looks like it is outside my budget sadly.

    However, this does mean that it seems to be between the ID.3 and the eNiro. It is a very difficult choice


    Between the id3 and eniro I'd pick the eniro. It's a better put together car, more space, and despite the slightly slower (105kW vs 77kW) fast charging speed and more expensive Ionity rate (as you won't need to fast charge much with >400km range) I'd pick the eniro.


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ jasonc5432


    Lumen wrote: »
    This might be useful, or not.

    Tesla M3 vs Kia e-Niro, tldr alert
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110877337

    A couple of things have changed since then. I got my M3LR in March, and it's now done 19,000km. I love it even more than I expected. The most unexpectedly best thing is how nice it is at very low speed, e.g. crawling through towns.

    It's also great to "camp" in, e.g. when I take my kids to sports training or matches far away, I can just sit comfily for an hour watching Netflix or whatever and it doesn't "turn off" like our other car, a Kia Sportage. I actually think this is something worth testing in any EV, it's not something to take for granted and depends on how the low and high voltage batteries are connected and managed.

    Also since then the ID.3 has come along, and it seems better that I'd expected. Importantly, it has reasonably priced access to Ionity, which for both the Kia and Tesla is extortionately expensive (79c/kWh). Now that is arguably a price worth bearing in the Tesla, when you're charging at 100-150kW for 20 mins or so. But in an e-Niro, spending an hour sitting charging and getting a €45 bill is completely unacceptable IMO.

    So I think the VW now has the edge over the Kia due to charging speed and cheaper access to Ionity, but I haven't thought about this too deeply.

    It also might be worth waiting for a Chinese Model 3 SR+, because the LFP battery is happier being held near 100%, so you get to use more of the range more of the time. It actually makes the LR seem bad value or completely redundant, because I tend to avoid charging that to more than 80%, which gives almost the same capacity as the SR+ at 100%.

    I still love the power and AWD of the LR though, and because it does lots of planned 300km+ days where I can schedule departure charging to 95%, I do make use of almost all of the range.

    Thanks for this; I hadn't actually realised that Ionity charging prices vary based on brand of car!

    Do other public chargers also differentiate their prices based on brand of car?

    When you say the ID.3 is faster to charge than the eNiro, why is this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ jasonc5432


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Between the id3 and eniro I'd pick the eniro. It's a better put together car, more space, and despite the slightly slower (105kW vs 77kW) fast charging speed and more expensive Ionity rate (as you won't need to fast charge much with >400km range) I'd pick the eniro.

    I'm a bit confused about the range on both. The eNiro is supposed to get 455km approx and the ID3 is supposed to get 420km approx. Are these trustworthy? Provided I drive normally and not like a racing car?

    If I was commuting to work (post Covid) I'd expect about a 235km round trip each day with approximately:
    - 80km of that done at 90kmh ave
    - 120km of that done at 120kmh ave
    - 35km of that done at 0-10kmh ave

    I understand that in the above the 120kmh parts might have to be reduced somewhat. I am just stating roughly the normal that I would do in an ICE in average congestion


  • Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭ jordan191


    jasonc5432 wrote: »
    I'm a bit confused about the range on both. The eNiro is supposed to get 455km approx and the ID3 is supposed to get 420km approx. Are these trustworthy? Provided I drive normally and not like a racing car?

    If I was commuting to work (post Covid) I'd expect about a 235km round trip each day with approximately:
    - 80km of that done at 90kmh ave
    - 120km of that done at 120kmh ave
    - 35km of that done at 0-10kmh ave

    I understand that in the above the 120kmh parts might have to be reduced somewhat. I am just stating roughly the normal that I would do in an ICE in average congestion

    I'd say take a 100km off those manufacturers figures for winter range or 120km/hr motorway driving, not a hope the standard id3 will do 420kms unless you're driving like miss daisy with the heating off


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ jasonc5432


    jordan191 wrote: »
    I'd say take a 100km off those manufacturers figures for winter range or 120km/hr motorway driving, not a hope the standard id3 will do 420kms unless you're driving like miss daisy with the heating off

    I heard something about the eNiro being particularly consistent at achieving close to it's 455 range even when driven differently. Is this true? Is it more reliable than the ID3 in that regard? Or have I heard wrong


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    As a very rough rule of thumb, a reasonably efficient EV will do 25kW/100km at 120kph once you account for the fact that you won't be running it from 100% to 0%.

    So for a 235km motorway commute 58kWh would do it, but the fact that you have half the journey on slower roads would give extra breathing room for wet, cold and windy weather as most cars will achieve their WLTP consumption at 90kph.


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ jasonc5432


    Lumen wrote: »
    As a very rough rule of thumb, a reasonably efficient EV will do 25kW/100km at 120kph once you account for the fact that you won't be running it from 100% to 0%.

    So for a 235km motorway commute 58kWh would do it, but the fact that you have half the journey on slower roads would give extra breathing room for wet, cold and windy weather as most cars will achieve their WLTP consumption at 90kph.

    Thanks again for all this good information.

    Am I correct in assuming that most EV drivers try to avoid 120kph?

    Also, does type of acceleration (e.g. rapid vs slow acceleration) make any/much difference?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,832 ✭✭✭ markpb


    jasonc5432 wrote: »
    Am I correct in assuming that most EV drivers try to avoid 120kph?

    Nope! It depends on your situation. If driving at 100kph means that you can make your trip without charging, then maybe. If you have to change anyway or if you can use charging at/near your destination, drive as fast as you want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    I often drive at exactly 120 GPS speed whereas I used to drive at 130kph indicated in my fossil (about 124kph).

    It's not that I need the range, it just seems wasteful to drive faster.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭ MightyMunster


    jasonc5432 wrote: »
    Thanks again for all this good information.

    Am I correct in assuming that most EV drivers try to avoid 120kph?

    Also, does type of acceleration (e.g. rapid vs slow acceleration) make any/much difference?

    Definitely no need to limit speed in the newer EVs with larger batteries. Recent trip Dublin to Cork in a Model 3 was around 18kw/100km compared to my average over the year of around 14.
    Acceleration does make a difference as it does in any car.

    Try out the driver aids like adaptive cruise control if you're going to be doing such high mileage. Find the Tesla one way better than the Hyundai Ioniq I had previously (possible the Eniro is slightly better/newer?)


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    the eniro is a lot closer to getting its 450 km in real world range vs the id3


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭ eagerv


    I have had no problem getting WLTP in my ID.3 in real world driving, but very little motorways in my part of the world..


    I am not an early morning driver, temperatures not too bad so far when I go..
    After driving our Ioniq for about 7 months, the computer records the ID.3 about 10% less efficient at a steady speed. I can live with that given the extra power and fun..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭ ewj1978


    Have an i3 and a e-soul (64kwh). both get ~17kw/100k while driving at 100kph. Esoul gives 400km range in the winter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭ jordan191


    i'm currently driving a model 3 performance on 18" wheels & am getting 430-450 kms from a full charge, did a 220km trip today mostly motorway M4 & M50 at 115-120km/hr and used around 55%


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,398 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Model 3, a lot faster

    Model 3 Autopilot that receives updates with option to FSD when it improves.

    Model 3 for the ability to warm the battery in winter for fast charging ( other cars slow down dramatically when the battery is cold ) but if cold the charging speed will also slow, but it has the option to heat it other cars do not allow heating of the battery for charging at a fast charger, in fact I know of no other EV that has this feature.

    Remains to be seen how the id.3 handles cold battery charging, it does heat the battery but under what conditions remain unknown for now.

    Model 3 has a nicer interior, google maps, better infotainment altogether.

    46.5 K with potential for further price reduction if we get the LiFeP04 battery but this is rumour for now but there is a strong possibility Europe will get the LiFeP04 battery which should have a really long life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    Model 3 for the ability to warm the battery in winter for fast charging ( other cars slow down dramatically when the battery is cold ) but if cold the charging speed will also slow, but it has the option to heat it other cars do not allow heating of the battery for charging at a fast charger, in fact I know of no other EV that has this feature.
    Unfortunately this still only works on Tesla Superchargers, not Ionity or ESB 150kW, and there is no manual override.

    So, as with Superchargers generally, the value depends on whether there happen to be any on your routes. In my case, going around the south east of the country, there are not really, apart from the odd trip to Cashel. The routes between Dublin, Wexford, Carlow, Waterford, and Kilkenny have none.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,619 ✭✭✭✭ TitianGerm


    Lads the OP said he can't spend over €50k on a car before grants so there's no point recommending cars over his budget.


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ jasonc5432


    The Tesla does sound fantastic but does also seem to be outside my budget.

    So I'm still stuck on the ID3 vs eNiro decision. It might yet come down to flipping a coin!! haha


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,667 ✭✭✭✭ JPA


    12 or 13 grand roughly between Model 3 and iD3, I wouldn't stick them together in the same conversation.


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