Nationwide ban on household visits..

drunkmonkey

Can the Government legally do this? Is it really that easy to ride rough shot over peoples rights?

Credit Checker Moose

Not enforceable. Like all the rules it is only advisory.

Hurrache

It's not s law.

drunkmonkey

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Not enforceable. Like all the rules it is only advisory.

Well then they should say that, using the word ban is deceitful.

mgn

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Well then they should say that, using the word ban is deceitful.

Bit like the last lockdown when the over 70's thought that the were not allowed out of the house or go into a shop for months.

Quantum Erasure

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Well then they should say that, using the word ban is deceitful.

'Not a law? Ah shur I'll just pop over for a cuppa so'

votecounts

Have parties, visit everyone but just don't complain when we go level 4/5. This virus loves people meeting up

It’s up to each and every one of us to do what we can to help get to grips with Covid. If no unnecessary visits for the next 4 weeks are what’s requested, then, that’s what we SHOULD do. Personal responsibility. Though, no doubt there’ll be plenty who try to pull a smart one. You know, get one over those in authority.

smellyoldboot

Not law and even if it was what difference would it make? We rather uniquely possess a police force and legal system that doesn't seem to want the inconvenience of enforcing existing laws never mind countenance new ones

lawred2

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Well then they should say that, using the word ban is deceitful.

Did they actually say ban?

Either way, what does it matter? Law or not. That's what's been asked. You can choose to ignore it like many people choose to ignore actual laws.

elperello

It's neither legally or practically enforceable.

At least staying away from other people in domestic settings won't harm the economy.

There's always the phone for a chat.

It's a small enough ask compared to Level 5.

drunkmonkey

lawred2 wrote: »

Did they actually say ban?

Either way, what does it matter? Law or not. That's what's been asked. You can choose to ignore it like many people choose to ignore actual laws.

I don't rightly know couldn't be bothered listening to them anymore, just quoted the headline from the independent.

I think it does matter, language is important and should be respected by the Government, saying something is banned well should mean it's banned. My mother in law only found out a few weeks ago that cocooning wasn't the law, she was none too impressed. Said some very bad words.

eviltwin

Do we need a law or should intelligent people just use their common sense and just follow the guidelines? Have a few quiet weeks. I’m sure everyone will be sympathetic to anyone who has to visit a loved one for genuine reasons. Everyone else just use your cop on.

The chan chan man

They’re more what ye’d call guidelines than actual rules..

Ye best start believin in ghost stories Miss... yer in one!

twowheelsonly

To answer the OP...Yes they can legally do so and if the wont takes them they can make it unlawful.

I can't see them doing that though due to the resentment it would cause but also due to the fact that it would be pretty much un-enforceable.

drunkmonkey

eviltwin wrote: »

Do we need a law or should intelligent people just use their common sense and just follow the guidelines? Have a few quiet weeks. I’m sure everyone will be sympathetic to anyone who has to visit a loved one for genuine reasons. Everyone else just use your cop on.

The language being used is that of laws, we could say the same for any law then, should we scap them all and just ask people to do the right thing in the future.

The point of starting the thread was to have the legal discussion not the moral one.

This is it

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The language being used is that of laws, we could say the same for any law then, should we scap them all and just ask people to do the right thing in the future.

The point of starting the thread was to have the legal discussion not the moral one.

Maybe look into it a bit, sure you're not even sure what they said.

Xtrail14

Surely having a mod over would let you bend the rules.

drunkmonkey

This is it wrote: »

Maybe look into it a bit, sure you're not even sure what they said.

They've been pulled up on it before, I made the assumption they did it again but I'll check out the wording.

Trouser Snake

Have a lad booked in to do the carpets in November , I'd assume this "ban" doesn't extend to professional services?

Tig98

We're headed for a Level 5, without a doubt.

Just glance through Facebook and see people giving out that the schools and airports are still open. People have some messed up perspectives about needs and wants, and they are seriously aggrieved that a global pandemic would inconvenience them...

bladespin

This is it wrote: »

Maybe look into it a bit, sure you're not even sure what they said.

RTÉ and media are reporting a ‘ban’, but is that accurate reporting?

drunkmonkey

bladespin wrote: »

RTÉ and media are reporting a ‘ban’, but is that accurate reporting?

That question deserves it's own thread, is there any legal obligation on the media to report the truth accurately and to not cause unnecessary fear or panic.

MrStuffins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That question deserves it's own thread, is there any legal obligation on the media to report the truth accurately and to not cause unnecessary fear or panic.

"No visitors will be allowed...." was the wording.

So, a ban!

There's no unnecessary fear or panic. We're being asked not to visit each other's houses in case of an emergency. No fear or panic involved. Pretty straight forward.

squelch666

Eh this is going on and they want us to stop visiting family bulls hit

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40064687.html%3ftype=amp

MrStuffins

squelch666 wrote: »

Eh this is going on and they want us to stop visiting family bulls hit

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40064687.html%3ftype=amp

Sorry, are you said the Govt organised this?

Or are you saying because these people ignored the rules, the Govt shouldn't try to contain the virus?

What's your logic, other than the obvious?

kerry cow

problem is off licences, close them .
and schools have parents tramping around the roads .
it was all grand till September , then the graph took off , so quite simply , WHAT CHANGED , to cause it ?
something happened

drunkmonkey

MrStuffins wrote: »

"No visitors will be allowed...." was the wording.

So, a ban!

There's no unnecessary fear or panic. We're being asked not to visit each other's houses in case of an emergency. No fear or panic involved. Pretty straight forward.

Sounds like a law to me when it's spoken by the Taoiseach, "No visitors allowed".
It's a complete abuse of power, has no legal right to demand it, Visitors are allowed they always have been.

If you don't see why an ask like that can cause distress in people your cocooned from what's happening out in the real world.

Mrs OBumble

eviltwin wrote: »

Do we need a law or should intelligent people just use their common sense and just follow the guidelines?

Where'd all the intelligent people come from?


An interesting question: legally, now does this compare with visitor-bans which are imposed by hospitals? Do the latter really have the right to stop sick people from seeing their loved ones?


Practically, people need to copy on. If your granny etc is really lonely, compassionate visits are provided for. But for the most part, there's no need to be traipsing between people's houses.

Peregrinus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

An interesting question: legally, now does this compare with visitor-bans which are imposed by hospitals? Do the latter really have the right to stop sick people from seeing their loved ones?

Completely different. The hospital board has as much right to decide who is welcome in the hospital as you have to decide who is welcome in your home. You can debate the medical and social pros and cons of restrictions on hospital visits but, legally, there's no doubt that a hospital can restrict or ban visits.

GM228

It only comes into effect from midnight tonight, it may not be law straight away but is likely to be made law soon, the current restriction of 6 for example is law, I would imagine new COVID regulations been signed very soon.

Dempo1

Absolutely farcical notion, not practical, not enforceable, not logical but certainly absurd. Government seem to be making up any excuse to avoid the enviable and I sense fireworks later when NPHET meet and confirm their advice has not changed. It's just bizzare Government, knowing as they did, NPHET meeting today but yet came up with this new half baked idea, level 4 for 3 of the 6 counties with highest case rates and also throw in this silly household restrictions for level 3 late last night. This entire level plan becoming a joke, should be rensmed "level 3 and whatever your having"

Gooey Looey

So I can go and meet my friends at a beer garden, just not in my own garden!

Triangle

Dempo1 wrote: »

Absolutely farcical notion, not practical, not enforceable, not logical but certainly absurd. Government seem to be making up any excuse to avoid the enviable and I sense fireworks later when NPHET meet and confirm their advice has not changed. It's just bizzare Government, knowing as they did, NPHET meeting today but yet came up with this new half baked idea, level 4 for 3 of the 6 counties with highest case rates and also throw in this silly household restrictions for level 3 late last night. This entire level plan becoming a joke, should be rensmed "level 3 and whatever your having"

To be fair, they're (and have been) asking people to take personal accountability. It hasn't happened, they've moved to the next step.
The best outcome would be for businesses and employment and schooling to stay open while dealing with this pandemic.
But Joe soap just doesn't listen.
The question is at what stage you give up hope that people act in the interests of Ireland and impose a lockdown again.
Personally I don't have that much faith in society and would impose a lockdown but I do like their optimism. I'd hate to live in a world where there was no faith in people to do the right thing.

Dempo1

Dempo1 wrote: »

Absolutely farcical notion, not practical, not enforceable, not logical but certainly absurd. Government seem to be making up any excuse to avoid the enviable and I sense fireworks later when NPHET meet and confirm their advice has not changed. It's just bizzare Government, knowing as they did, NPHET meeting today but yet came up with this new half baked idea, level 4 for 3 of the 6 counties with highest case rates and also throw in this silly household restrictions for level 3 late last night. This entire level plan becoming a joke, should be rensmed "level 3 and whatever your having"

It’s attitudes like this that has us in this situation. Some of us don’t need the government telling us what to do or not do. We’ve enough cop on to be careful anyway.

Dempo1

Triangle wrote: »

To be fair, they're (and have been) asking people to take personal accountability. It hasn't happened, they've moved to the next step.
The best outcome would be for businesses and employment and schooling to stay open while dealing with this pandemic.
But Joe soap just doesn't listen.
The question is at what stage you give up hope that people act in the interests of Ireland and impose a lockdown again.
Personally I don't have that much faith in society and would impose a lockdown but I do like their optimism. I'd hate to live in a world where there was no faith in people to do the right thing.

All valid points I have to say but my sense is that this is more than households, maybe I'm wrong but I've noticed people have been far more cautious in homecsettings, less and less vistors, I've even been at local BBQ""s and whilst initially odd, it's become the norm where friends stand clear and not as much grouping. My own village is extraordinarily cautious, local shops doing a great job but again, very little idle chatting on the streets. Going into larger towns however, it's as if nothing has changed and I've yet to see any aherdance in shopping centres particular. It's been admitted by government that slippage in retail evident. Perhaps more enforcement in this area needs consideration.

SAMTALK

Triangle wrote: »

To be fair, they're (and have been) asking people to take personal accountability. It hasn't happened, they've moved to the next step.
The best outcome would be for businesses and employment and schooling to stay open while dealing with this pandemic.
But Joe soap just doesn't listen.
The question is at what stage you give up hope that people act in the interests of Ireland and impose a lockdown again.
Personally I don't have that much faith in society and would impose a lockdown but I do like their optimism. I'd hate to live in a world where there was no faith in people to do the right thing.

Agree. People giving out when in lockdown, when not in lockdown, when schools closed , when schools closed etc.

The government are trying to keep the economy going as much as possible but people just see their own little world.

I'd prefer to see economy and schools open and try to do as asked so we might be able to avoid level 5. The government and NPHET can only say and do so much but if we don't do our bit we will never get a handle on this.

Dempo1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It’s attitudes like this that has us in this situation. Some of us don’t need the government telling us what to do or not do. We’ve enough cop on to be careful anyway.

What exactly have I pointed out is wrong? Do you seriously think last nights announcements will make the slightest difference, seriously? What is the logic of proposing measures that are not enforceable and more to the point, why level 4 on 3 counties and not 6 that have similar numbers, Dublin twice as bad as any other county albeit population a factor.

The nation now waiting on Tender hooks for NPHETS meeting later (we know what they think) what was the point of governments late night announcents when there's going to be contradictions yet again tonight. All that's been achieved is more uncertainty, which is actually causing more economic harm than decisive action.

banie01

I think the Health Act 1947 allows for the Minister to make regulation to limit the spread of infectious disease.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1947/en/act/pub/0028/sec0031.html#sec31

That said, one would hope that a wider swathe of the populace would have the cop on to not actually need such State intrusion in their lives.
In a country where we generally have policing by consent, we rely on cooperation on not compulsion.
The current spread of the virus highlights that there is a large cohort of people who just don't give a fiddlers.

Eircom_Sucks

don't go visit your parents etc , but meet with a gang in a beer garden and drink

fooking crazy

what's the point of phasing if they keep adding little bits on here and there

either we are in Level 3 , 4 , 5 , 100

pick one and fooking stick to it , no wonder people are confused ffs

i won't be adhering to it , i won't be out in a pub , but im not gonna lock myself in my house everynight

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s attitudes like this that has us in this situation. Some of us don’t need the government telling us what to do or not do. We’ve enough cop on to be careful anyway.

The thing is, some of us having enough cop on to be careful is not going to prevent the pandemic growing. A critical mass of people have to take the actions needed, or else the efforts of those who do take those actions will be undermined.

The some of us with cop are presumably unbothered by government advice to do x or avoid Y since, by and large, the government is merely advising them to do what they would do anyway.

The problem is those who don't have sufficient cop to do what is right because either (a) they don't care about doing what is right; they are denial about the need to do anything, or (b) they are unaware of or confused about what is right. Government advice may be very helpful to the latter group, provided it is clear, consistent and (of course) well-adapted to goal of controlling/supressing the pandemic.

HeidiHeidi

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

don't go visit your parents etc , but meet with a gang in a beer garden and drink

fooking crazy

what's the point of phasing if they keep adding little bits on here and there

either we are in Level 3 , 4 , 5 , 100

pick one and fooking stick to it , no wonder people are confused ffs

i won't be adhering to it , i won't be out in a pub , but im not gonna lock myself in my house everynight

Or don't go and visit your parents and don't meet with a gang in a beer garden either, maybe?

What bit of "reduce your social contacts" do people not get?

Its really couldn't be made any clearer.

If they don't impose/enforce restrictions, you get webels like this, if they do, the howls of "police state" start.

They really can't win.

Dempo1

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

don't go visit your parents etc , but meet with a gang in a beer garden and drink

fooking crazy

what's the point of phasing if they keep adding little bits on here and there

either we are in Level 3 , 4 , 5 , 100

pick one and fooking stick to it , no wonder people are confused ffs

i won't be adhering to it , i won't be out in a pub , but im not gonna lock myself in my house everynight

Exactly, it's becoming a joke, there's either a plan or not, adding on, taking out, changing definition of the word essential, it's just pointless and causing total confusion and achieving little.

I'm also sick of hearing how successful the Midlands level 3 restrictions were, I live bang in the middle and it was non existant, not the slightest bit of attention given to it and certainly not enforced.

Sadly a nursing home in my county now reporting 4th death in a week and 31 cases in total.

PommieBast

To me it looks like they are trying to maintain an air of statutory requirement when in fact it is advisory in order to avoid big payouts to businesses.

Eircom_Sucks

when does it end ??

the flu vaccine isn't 100 % , it's a preventative but you can still catch the flu

there will be no magic pill to eradicate this , maybe something similar to the flu preventative , so no gaurantee

so we lock ourselfs away for a few weeks , open up and then run and hide again

prolonging the inevitable tbh , we can't contain it and to think otherwise is mad

we can bring it down but people are 7 months into this crap and are sick of it and rightly so , people will always have house parties and break the rules FACT

if the government had of invested the billions over the years on a healthcare system that actually worked and more beds instead of wasting it , we'd be in a much better position

open the country up , save jobs , businesses because if not it will be our kids who will be leveraged with this massive debt

sydthebeat

We're paying the costs for HSE management being not fit for purpose and for years of government turning a blind eye to HSE management incompetence.

In 10 years out government has halved our heath spending. From 13% of gdp in 2011 to 6.9% this year.... With he OECD average being 8.8%.

Every single year our hospitals get over run with flu surges, and this year we have covid on top.

Lets be very honest with each other here. The reason for these current restrictions is purely down to HSEs inability to manage their scarce resources, and an inability of government to plan properly to clear back logs that existed precovid, and were exacerbated during covid.

We had some hospitals that were only 30% full during the early stages..... Think about that for a second.
A+E pressure was practically non existent.
That was the perfect time to organise the clearing of the back logs that are now causing the lack of ICU beds..... It's not covid cases that are causing the lack of ICU needs currently.

Purely a HSE and government mismanagement result.

Alf Veedersane

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

i won't be adhering to it , i won't be out in a pub , but im not gonna lock myself in my house everynight

You're not being asked to lock yourself in your house every night.

Eircom_Sucks

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You're not being asked to lock yourself in your house every night.

what else can i do ?

other than exercise

Alf Veedersane

sydthebeat wrote: »

In 10 years out government has halved our heath spending. From 13% of gdp in 2011 to 6.9% this year.... With he OECD average being 8.8%.

While I don't disagree with your overall point about the mismanagement of the health spend, this reads as though it reduced spending when it actually went up in absolute terms and there is more spent per capita than is the OECD average.

drunkmonkey

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

what else can i do ?

other than exercise

You can go to the pub, well I can't the students have them booked out every evening. 15 people from 15 different households who are not full time residents in the town and return to their homes every weekend in other counties. Yet that's perfectly fine but i'm been asked not to visit my mum less than 1km away.

Eircom_Sucks

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You can go to the pub, well I can't the students have them booked out every evening. 15 people from 15 different households who are not full time residents in the town and return to their homes every weekend in other counties. Yet that's perfectly fine but i'm been asked not to visit my mum less than 1km away.

lol

i will be seeing my parents , all be it i will stay in the garden and chat

i won't be adhering to these rules ( i'll wear a mask when going shopping etc , santise , but not staying at home not seeing my friends etc )