Roads vs Public Transport - Budget 2021

BonnieSituation

1.3bn for roads found again though. The mind boggles with this country.

marno21

BonnieSituation wrote: »

1.3bn for roads found again though. The mind boggles with this country.

Many of them important bus and freight corridors.

Where could the 1.3bn be spent on public transport this year? I don't see any PT project lacking funding for construction - there are none with planning permission.

BonnieSituation

marno21 wrote: »

Many of them important bus and freight corridors.

Where could the 1.3bn be spent on public transport this year? I don't see any PT project lacking funding for construction - there are none with planning permission.

The point is there's always money for roads. We're on our uppers, but we'll find money for roads. It's a statement being made not taking into any consideration the importance of the projects.

Years ago we couldn't afford DU, but we had money for roads. Now, we haven't a pot to piss in and we'll find money for roads.

There's always money for roads.

I hope that clears up any ambiguity as to the point I was making. Albeit in response to a post on threads that happens to be off topic.

Pete_Cavan

No matter how much public transport we have, we still need roads. The road network needs to be maintained and expanded regardless of public transport. As said, roads funding for 2021 could be slashed but there would be little increased money spent on public transport as there are few projects to spend it on. Funding for Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects are factored into current and future capital spending plans, just like the funding for roads announced yesterday, nothing has changed for those projects. Its really not an issue.

AngryLips

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The road network needs to be maintained and expanded regardless of public transport.

With a couple of exceptions this is false, the road network doesn't need to be expanded.

loyatemu

the bulk of that road money is for maintenance I think.

Pete_Cavan

AngryLips wrote: »

With a couple of exceptions this is false, the road network doesn't need to be expanded.

There is considerable expansion and improvement required on the road network. Roads are also used by buses which carry the majority of public transport passengers. To get back on topic, my point was that funding for roads in yesterday's budget makes no difference to Metrolink.

AngryLips

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There is considerable expansion and improvement required on the road network. Roads are also used by buses which carry the majority of public transport passengers. To get back on topic, my point was that funding for roads in yesterday's budget makes no difference to Metrolink.

That can all be solved by better managing the roads we have at the moment. Until there's talk of congestion charging and more extensive segregation there's no point in building more roads because you're effectively building more traffic jams.

Pete_Cavan

AngryLips wrote: »

That can all be solved by better managing the roads we have at the moment. Until there's talk of congestion charging and more extensive segregation there's no point in building more roads because you're effectively building more traffic jams.

Congestion charging on the N17, N24 or in Donegal? Most of the country exists outside of Dublin you know! There are many parts of the country which require new roads, roads which will also provide improved public transport services in the region.

I don't agree with the thread title which suggests an either/or situation which is not the case. My point was that numerous road and public transport projects are planned and accounted for as part of longer term financial planning and multi-annual budgeting, Budget 2021 has made no difference to any of these projects. Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects (in Dublin and other cities) are going to have little or no capital in 2021 because they are not at a stage to spend such money. Hopefully from 2023 we will see some large public transport projects move to construction which will see the Transport budget refocused more towards public transport, it still wont remove the need for major road projects though.

dzsfah2xoynme9

Anyone complaining about money being spent on roads has obviously never driven from Limerick to Cork in the n20 at peak times...

riddlinrussell

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Congestion charging on the N17, N24 or in Donegal? Most of the country exists outside of Dublin you know! There are many parts of the country which require new roads, roads which will also provide improved public transport services in the region.

I don't agree with the thread title which suggests an either/or situation which is not the case. My point was that numerous road and public transport projects are planned and accounted for as part of longer term financial planning and multi-annual budgeting, Budget 2021 has made no difference to any of these projects. Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects (in Dublin and other cities) are going to have little or no capital in 2021 because they are not at a stage to spend such money. Hopefully from 2023 we will see some large public transport projects move to construction which will see the Transport budget refocused more towards public transport, it still wont remove the need for major road projects though.

I would hope the idea is to meet the 2:1 spending goal by having a raft of PT projects start planning in the next year and then in 2-3 years time see the lions share of the budget be spent on these public transport projects as they reach maturity, not sure if I see it happening though....

Pete_Cavan

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I would hope the idea is to meet the 2:1 spending goal by having a raft of PT projects start planning in the next year and then in 2-3 years time see the lions share of the budget be spent on these public transport projects as they reach maturity, not sure if I see it happening though....

Nothing substantial can start next year and probably not the year after either, that is just where we are. Next year Dublin will get a couple of new train stations, early implementation on BusConnects in Dublin and the 41 new carriages should improve rail services nationally but they are the main changes for public transport next year.

I am generally in favour of the 2:1 split, particularly if we have a few big ticket public transport projects like Metrolink and DART+ happening. The 2:1 ratio just can't be implemented now so there is no point in complaining about roads allocation for next year (not that you were doing the complaining).

riddlinrussell

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Nothing substantial can start next year and probably not the year after either, that is just where we are. Next year Dublin will get a couple of new train stations, early implementation on BusConnects in Dublin and the 41 new carriages should improve rail services nationally but they are the main changes for public transport next year.

I am generally in favour of the 2:1 split, particularly if we have a few big ticket public transport projects like Metrolink and DART+ happening. The 2:1 ratio just can't be implemented now so there is no point in complaining about roads allocation for next year (not that you were doing the complaining).

Exactly, I'll be very happy indeed if the 5 year ratio is anywhere close to 2:1

IE 222

Philip Ashy Thief wrote: »

Anyone complaining about money being spent on roads has obviously never driven from Limerick to Cork in the n20 at peak times...

I have but my believe still remains the same, you don't need a motorway to get around a tractor or truck.

hans aus dtschl

I strongly suspect we'll have roads as our primary land infrastructure expenditure still in 2025.

There are currently very strong pro--motorist lobbies. Car advertising budgets dominate all media.

Unless the EU bring in some heavy-handed rules, I don't expect to see change within 5 years.

I hope I'm wrong.

marno21

There are 2 types of road investment to me (highway investment in particular). Urban and interurban

Urban road investment would be adding a new lane to the M50 or N40 to cater for more commuters. Interurban is for improving journey times between urban centres, to provide effective corridors for freight, buses, and yes, motorists.

Bar the Dunkettle Interchange, which is also interurban to an extent, all the projects yesterday announced are interurban. N4 Dublin-Sligo, N5 Dublin-Westport, N22 Cork-Kerry, N56 West Donegal to the World etc.

Comparing the Macroom bypass to, for example, the effects of adding a 7th lane to I-405 in Los Angeles is nonsensical.

hans aus dtschl

I don't begrudge the interurban roads whatsoever to be honest with you. My problem is more to do with the lack of (or substandard nature of) the development of sustainable transport infrastructure alongside this. I consider the "roads" investment to be something approaching normal, and our "sustainable transport" investment to be something approaching unacceptable.

tharlear

The modern investment in roads rails etc in Ireland started in mid 90s and got a large boost in the early 2000s. The m50 and motorways to Dublin were built, luas was built. (in my opinion DU and metro north should have been built also). Besides that the only non-Dublin destination national motorway was the m17/m18, opened in 2017.

Many regional towns got bypasses and saw some expansion. Similarly Dublin saw massive investment in its local infrastructure as it expanded.
Just because Dublin still needs metro north, DU, DART+, luas extensions, and probably more as the city expands, does not change the fact that the cow path n20 needs to be upgraded. Learning from Dublin (m50, m7, green luas) lets built it to a standard that future proofs it, HQDC/M.

Failure to build a national motorway system, and invest in regional cities will just put further strain on the already strained Dublin region. Building a motorway that does not go to Dublin should not be considered beyond the pale. The 2:1 ideas seem fine, as the majority of PT expenditure in the immediate future will be rail in the Dublin region.

I consider the "roads" investment to be something approaching normal, and our "sustainable transport" investment to be something approaching unacceptable.

Where outside of Dublin region does rail make sense, the Galway limerick line is not exactly a success story.

bk

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Years ago we couldn't afford DU, but we had money for roads. Now, we haven't a pot to piss in and we'll find money for roads.

While I get here you are coming from, the above isn't really accurate from an economic or historical perspective.

DU and MN were cancelled at the height of the last recession. At the time we had massive levels of national debt (taken on from the banks + explosion in social welfare bill), interest rates on government debt were 14% and perhaps more seriously there were very real concerns if we would even be able to get anyone to lend us at even those generous rates, the threat of default was very much real.

By comparison, now, despite Covid19, our economy is still in pretty decent shape. Our national debt is pretty low, quiet a bit below the EU average and interest rates on government bonds are basically 0% and in some cases negative, as in people are paying us to take on our debt!!

Also keep in mind, we weren't really in control of our on budget back then, Troika was and they told us to cut back massively. Now thinking is very different and a more counter-cyclical approach is being taken.

It really is a very different situation.

Also the road bit isn't really true either. Major road projects that weren't already under way (contracts signed) were also cancelled, M20, etc. Most of the spending on roads was for maintenance of the existing road infrastructure and to finish already started projects. Keep in mind, most of the interurban motorway network had been completed prior to the recession hitting or were well under-way and it would have been madness to leave that deteriorate during the recession years.

Likewise, the government is currently pouring hundreds of millions extra into DB/BE/IR/GA/Luas to keep them from going bankrupt and shutting down during the current Covid19 issues as passenger and fare levels have gone through the floor (down 90% in March).

During troubled times, keeping your existing infrastructure maintained and running is more important then building new.

Fortunately because of the current economic climate, it looks like most of the major infrastructure projects look like they are still going ahead, though perhaps a bit delayed for understandable reasons.

I think that is very good news, with everything going on.

Idbatterim

Philip Ashy Thief wrote: »

Anyone complaining about money being spent on roads has obviously never driven from Limerick to Cork in the n20 at peak times...

that is the ONLY major project, that is worthy of investment! If we have hundreds of millions for other crap, while Dublin metro, DU etc isnt going, its a disgrace! Typical ireland though, keep everyone happy scattering it all around. While dublin bursting at the seems, with now mostly housing issues, cant even get an irrelevant pittance spent on these game changer projects!

Someone else made a good point on another thread, how much column inches have been taken up about the scandalous childrens hospital over run? Endless! and it is a scandal! but that figure, is an utter irrelevance, compared to the money they have just pulled out of their ass and the debt they have signed us up for!

another thing lads, going to westport etc and the north west, google maps normally recommends going up the n5 etc, wouldnt it be far better for most motorists, to go all the way across to galway and then up the new m18, virtually the same travel time, but on far far safer roads, that is way below capacity, instead their plan, is to spend a fortune upgrading the likes of the n4 and 5 I believe it is... Ireland is a tiny country, how many motorway does it need, some are in such close proximity to one another...

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

that is the ONLY major project, that is worthy of investment! If we have hundreds of millions for other crap, while Dublin metro, DU etc isnt going, its a disgrace! Typical ireland though, keep everyone happy scattering it all around. While dublin bursting at the seems, with now mostly housing issues, cant even get an irrelevant pittance spent on these game changer projects!

Someone else made a good point on another thread, how much column inches have been taken up about the scandalous childrens hospital over run? Endless! and it is a scandal! but that figure, is an utter irrelevance, compared to the money they have just pulled out of their ass and the debt they have signed us up for!

another thing lads, going to westport etc and the north west, google maps normally recommends going up the n5 etc, wouldnt it be far better for most motorists, to go all the way across to galway and then up the new m18, virtually the same travel time, but on far far safer roads, that is way below capacity, instead their plan, is to spend a fortune upgrading the likes of the n4 and 5 I believe it is... Ireland is a tiny country, how many motorway does it need, some are in such close proximity to one another...

just checked google maps there, 5 min extra travel time from liffey valley, to go the galway route v the far more effort and dangerous N5 route...

Not just about moving people but goods too.

There's no harm upgrading the roads to the NW to make it safer and more suitable for lorries.

rebs23

tharlear wrote: »

Where outside of Dublin region does rail make sense, the Galway limerick line is not exactly a success story.

Cork commuter is a success. The extension of the line to Midleton has been very popular.
The 2:1 ratio is completely misconcieved though as it re-enforces investment into Dublin region at the expense of transport infrastructure elsewhere and also does not taken into account that some roads actualy facilitate more sustainable development patterns, taking trucks out of city centres, enabling cycling and public transport infrastructure, freeing up brownfield lands for redevelopment, etc.
Look at the approach on the Continent and the same pattern repeats itself, ring road built, port moves out, public transport infrastructure built, cycleways built, car parking removed....
The same pattern time and time again, simply building more cycle ways or lanes won't be enough to get the urban environment that is more sustainable.

riddlinrussell

rebs23 wrote: »

Cork commuter is a success. The extension of the line to Midleton has been very popular.
The 2:1 ratio is completely misconcieved though as it re-enforces investment into Dublin region at the expense of transport infrastructure elsewhere and also does not taken into account that some roads actualy facilitate more sustainable development patterns, taking trucks out of city centres, enabling cycling and public transport infrastructure, freeing up brownfield lands for redevelopment, etc.
Look at the approach on the Continent and the same pattern repeats itself, ring road built, port moves out, public transport infrastructure built, cycleways built, car parking removed....
The same pattern time and time again, simply building more cycle ways or lanes won't be enough to get the urban environment that is more sustainable.

I think part of the issue is that there is no oversight to ensure the PT money is spent on PT proper. Already this government we have seen a number of 'cycling' projects which have essentially been a road resurfacing with painted lines added.

There needs to be a minimum criteria for something to be considered suitable for coming out of either the 'walking and cycling' pot or the 'Public Transport' pot.

That doesn't however mean that I don't think roads should be allowed to dip into those pots at all, just that when they do they have to prove it benefits PT times/frequency, or in the case of cycling/walking meets the DMURS guidelines well and can be proven to make the route safer and increase cycling uptake.

An example would be, road improvement works which add a continuous, at least 12 hour bus lane could be pulled from the PT budget, a resurfacing that adds a kerbed cycle lane/barriered cycle lane, could maybe come out of cycling, etc etc

tharlear

Look at the approach on the Continent and the same pattern repeats itself, ring road built, port moves out, public transport infrastructure built, cycleways built, car parking removed....
The same pattern time and time again, simply building more cycle ways or lanes won't be enough to get the urban environment that is more sustainable.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

spacetweek

tharlear wrote: »

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

You have to actually go all the way and do all that though, and not just build the bypass. Doesn't always happen.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

You have to actually go all the way and do all that though, and not just build the bypass. Doesn't always happen.

Look at Cork though. The ring road (N40/Tunnel) is built, new port is under construction but needs more road infrastructure (M28 + Dunkettle) to service it, the port area on the north side of the river is prime for redevelopment and has a rail line running through, the southern docks need the Luas. The chain is well on its way.

KaneToad

Idbatterim wrote: »

another thing lads, going to westport etc and the north west, google maps normally recommends going up the n5 etc, wouldnt it be far better for most motorists, to go all the way across to galway and then up the new m18, virtually the same travel time, but on far far safer roads, that is way below capacity, instead their plan, is to spend a fortune upgrading the likes of the n4 and 5 I believe it is... Ireland is a tiny country, how many motorway does it need, some are in such close proximity to one another...

just checked google maps there, 5 min extra travel time from liffey valley, to go the galway route v the far more effort and dangerous N5 route...

The end of the M18 to Westport is worse than than the bad bits of the N5.

marno21

KaneToad wrote: »

The end of the M18 to Westport is worse than than the bad bits of the N5.

Westport to the N17 dual carriageway at Tuam is 61km via the R332/N84/R330 vs 70km via Castlebar and Claremorris. Soon, 20km of the latter journey will be dual carriageway.

With the N5 Castlebar-Westport DC being built and plans to upgrade the N17 between Tuam and Claremorris to dual carriageway, a 2+2 or quality single carriageway between the N5 at Castlebar and the N17 at Claremorris would have brought high quality connectivity from Westport+Castlebar to Galway, Cork, Limerick and Dublin via the M17. Instead, Mayo is getting 35km of at grade single carriageway through Roscommon and a relatively poor N17 and N60. A missed opportunity imo.