Rent up 62% since 2010

LuasSimon

Minding her everyone’s cup of tea but David McWilliams article in today’s IT lays out the facts .


Irish rents have gone up 62.4% since since 2010 whilst wages have gone up 20%. So as each year goes by people have less and less money left after paying their rent . How can wage increases or inflation not include such a big a factor as the percentage increases in rent when awarding wage increases or annual inflation figures .Many people with less disposable income leads to other business having less customers and closing down like many pubs etc ..... the only ones winning are landlords??

AlanG

In many and possibly the majority of places rents have gone down in real terms since 2007. Very selective starting date. Lots of landlords still in negative equity since 2005-2008.
Also average asking rents are not average rents, the majority of people are renting far below those rates.

ErnestBorgnine

AlanG wrote: »

In many and possibly the majority of places rents have gone down in real terms since 2007. Very selective starting date. Lots of landlords still in negative equity since 2005-2008.
Also average asking rents are not average rents, the majority of people are renting far below those rates.

Bollocks

Goodshape

AlanG wrote: »

Also average asking rents are not average rents, the majority of people are renting far below those rates.

Do you think people renting are haggling for cheaper rates?

MadYaker

The housing and accommodation market in this country is totally dysfunctional.

ChikiChiki

Supply and Demand. A serious undersupply and high demand.

Anyway, good riddance to some of the greed filled landlords out there. The pendulum has swung sharply since March. Give it time.

beauf

LuasSimon wrote: »

Minding her everyone’s cup of tea but David McWilliams article in today’s IT lays out the facts .


Irish rents have gone up 62.4% since since 2010 whilst wages have gone up 20%. So as each year goes by people have less and less money left after paying their rent . How can wage increases or inflation not include such a big a factor as the percentage increases in rent when awarding wage increases or annual inflation figures .Many people with less disposable income leads to other business having less customers and closing down like many pubs etc ..... the only ones winning are landlords??

The glib answer to that is become LL if you think it's a road paved with gold.

Another approach is to move to where the ratio of living costs to wages is better. Because that's really the issue.

It's the same with jobs. If a job doesn't pay enough you should go do something else.

I know none of the simple or often possible. But that's the basics of it.

suicide_circus

Even if we ignore the impact on quality of life, the ability to save for old age etc, the knock on effects of such obscene rental rates are huge. Why do we have so many people buying cars on pcp - something that should be a last resort akin to loan sharks.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40061690.html

LuasSimon

20% growth in wages over past 10 years is only 2% a year wage growth v 6 % average growth in rent .
Unless you’ve a good job you’d be as well off on the dole and let the council pay the rent !
The amount of jobs that have become minimum wage or close to it has helped the race to the bottom .

MadYaker

beauf wrote: »

The glib answer to that is become LL if you think it's a road paved with gold.

Another approach is to move to where the ratio of living costs to wages is better. Because that's really the issue.

It's the same with jobs. If a job doesn't pay enough you should go do something else.

I know none of the simple or often possible. But that's the basics of it.

Its as much of a nightmare being a landlord as it is a tenant.

mvl

AlanG wrote: »

In many and possibly the majority of places rents have gone down in real terms since 2007. Very selective starting date. Lots of landlords still in negative equity since 2005-2008.
Also average asking rents are not average rents, the majority of people are renting far below those rates.

could be one of those reviews for a decade type of thing, that's all.
would be interested what are the views on employee productivity on this decade instead, would that explain why only the 20% increase overall - and how would the 20% compare with other markets.
regards the housing setup - agree with beauf's post.

beauf

suicide_circus wrote: »

Even if we ignore the impact on quality of life, the ability to save for old age etc, the knock on effects of such obscene rental rates are huge. Why do we have so many people buying cars on pcp - something that should be a last resort akin to loan sharks.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40061690.html

Other countries have decided to do thinks to improve quality of life. I was interested to see the focus Japan has on getting kids to travel to school on their own from an earlier age as it allows society to be more efficient. It's a holistic approach to society. Not that it's perfect there or anything.

If you remove the necessity of people to work in Dublin, or the other cities you solve a lot of problems.

Mr. Karate

MadYaker wrote: »

The housing and accommodation market in this country is totally dysfunctional.

What do you expect when a good chunk of the property are in the Dail [or other parts of irish Govt] or connected to someone in Govt.

P2C

I was getting €750 for a 3 bed in Sligo in 2007. Today I am getting €700. Mind you I have had the same tennant for ten years had 2 rents review in that time. The last rent review fell in the pandemic and I had to put the breaks. That review still doesn’t go over €750. So I can assure you the rents have not gone up as much as David is stating

smellyoldboot

Hopefully the aftershock of the pandemic will be a real hard lesson for Ireland's greedy landlord class. I've no time for anyone's hard luck "accidental" landlord or "negative equity" stories either. That lot are the greediest baxtards of all, expecting some poor shmuck to cover the mortgage on their ****ty investment and a little top up to boot all the while moaning about paying taxes.

LuasSimon

LuasSimon wrote: »

Minding her everyone’s cup of tea but David McWilliams article in today’s IT lays out the facts .


Irish rents have gone up 62.4% since since 2010 whilst wages have gone up 20%. So as each year goes by people have less and less money left after paying their rent . How can wage increases or inflation not include such a big a factor as the percentage increases in rent when awarding wage increases or annual inflation figures .Many people with less disposable income leads to other business having less customers and closing down like many pubs etc ..... the only ones winning are landlords??

Imagine how much rents would be if we had less landlords.

Gervais08

P2C wrote: »

I was getting €750 for a 3 bed in Sligo in 2007. Today I am getting €700. Mind you I have had the same tennant for ten years had 2 rents review in that time. The last rent review fell in the pandemic and I had to put the breaks. That review still doesn’t go over €750. So I can assure you the rents have not gone up as much as David is stating

I’m in the Midlands and mine was 750 for a decade and now 780.

I don’t believe that figure for a second, it’s not nationwide - it’s a chunk of Dublin at best.

osarusan

I'd say those stats really mean that Dublin rents have risen by more than 62%, often significantly more, while it is less, often significantly less, in most other parts of the country.

Among other factors, Dublin rents are an inevitable outcome of failing to come up with any coherent strategy for developing other potential locations for large companies elsewhere in the country.

beauf

Mr. Karate wrote: »

What do you expect when a good chunk of the property are in the Dail [or other parts of irish Govt] or connected to someone in Govt.

How landlords are there in Ireland. How many are in the govt?

Why are the rules and laws so anti landlord and pro tenant, if they are manipulating it to suit themselves.

I'm just curious have you ever looked up the numbers?

beauf

Gervais08 wrote: »

I’m in the Midlands and mine was 750 for a decade and now 780.

I don’t believe that figure for a second, it’s not nationwide - it’s a chunk of Dublin at best.

It's probably distorted. It would be more useful to see a breakdown.

Sleeper12

LuasSimon wrote:

Irish rents have gone up 62.4% since since 2010 whilst wages have gone up 20%. So as each year goes by people have less and less money left after paying their rent . How can wage increases or inflation not include such a big a factor as the percentage increases in rent when awarding wage increases or annual inflation figures .Many people with less disposable income leads to other business having less customers and closing down like many pubs etc ..... the only ones winning are landlords??

What he fails to explain is that rent between 2007 & 2010 had fallen far more than wages in the same period.

He deliberately picked dates to try prove his opinion is correct. Had he picked 2007 or 2008 his whole idea falls flat on its face.

Statics are a wonderful thing when used correctly but they can be dangerous when you are selective on what statics you use.

He can be a right idiot at times

coolbeans

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Hopefully the aftershock of the pandemic will be a real hard lesson for Ireland's greedy landlord class. I've no time for anyone's hard luck "accidental" landlord or "negative equity" stories either. That lot are the greediest baxtards of all, expecting some poor shmuck to cover the mortgage on their ****ty investment and a little top up to boot all the while moaning about paying taxes.

So do you hâte all landlords or just the accidental types described above?

Samuel T. Cogley

beauf wrote: »

How landlords are there in Ireland. How many are in the govt?

Why are the rules and laws so anti landlord and pro tenant, if they are manipulating it to suit themselves.

I'm just curious have you ever looked up the numbers?

I've always wondered how many properties are owned by TDs, in total and as an average. I suspect it's not more than two each at most, probably more like one. After tax I exepct the average TD is making next to fúck all in comparison to the massive salary and benefits. I'd expect they'd make more, in cash flow terms, by fidling mileage.

osarusan

Some of the % increase will likely be down to this optimistic rental in Hacketstown, Carlow.

https://www.daft.ie/carlow/apartments-for-rent/hacketstown/main-street-hacketstown-carlow-2083526/

beauf

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I've always wondered how many properties are owned by TDs, in total and as an average. I suspect it's not more than two each at most, probably more like one. After tax I exepct the average TD is making next to fúck all in comparison to the massive salary and benefits. I'd expect they'd make more, in cash flow terms, by fidling mileage.

I've no idea and it's hard to find exact stats on any of that. Which is curious in itself. SF owns a lot of properties apparently.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-is-the-richest-political-party-in-ireland-1.4193124

osarusan

I've always thought the 'politicians letting rents go up as they own loads of properties' argument is hugely exaggerated. I mean, the 2016 Census reported 497,000 households renting.

Do we really think that politicians own any more than a tiny tiny percentage of that.

Maybe it's attractive to paint them as conniving operators with skin in the game, but really they are just useless at combating rising rents.

suicide_circus

osarusan wrote: »

Some of the % increase will likely be down to this optimistic rental in Hacketstown, Carlow.

https://www.daft.ie/carlow/apartments-for-rent/hacketstown/main-street-hacketstown-carlow-2083526/

6 bed in fairness

suicide_circus

osarusan wrote: »

I've always thought the 'politicians letting rents go up as they own loads of properties' argument is hugely exaggerated. I mean, the 2016 Census reported 497,000 households renting.

Do we really think that politicians own any more than a tiny tiny percentage of that.

Maybe it's attractive to paint them as conniving operators with skin in the game, but really they are just useless at combating rising rents.

Considering the constant (deserved) flak they take for the dysfunctional rental market, it would be a false economy for the sake of a few shekels

KaneToad

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I've always wondered how many properties are owned by TDs, in total and as an average. I suspect it's not more than two each at most, probably more like one. After tax I exepct the average TD is making next to fúck all in comparison to the massive salary and benefits. I'd expect they'd make more, in cash flow terms, by fidling mileage.

I don't think TDs have massive salaries. I think the salary should be higher. It might attract a better quality of public representative.

Some of our best TDs are the ones who could earn more if they went into the private sector - not the lobbying sector. Paschal Donohoe, Varadkar (not a likely personality but a good TD), Michael Mc Grath...

Some of the worst TDs are those that use the job to supplement the family business...Healy Rae, Cowan, Lowry

osarusan

osarusan wrote: »

I've always thought the 'politicians letting rents go up as they own loads of properties' argument is hugely exaggerated. I mean, the 2016 Census reported 497,000 households renting.

Do we really think that politicians own any more than a tiny tiny percentage of that.

Maybe it's attractive to paint them as conniving operators with skin in the game, but really they are just useless at combating rising rents.

+1 it's hugely exaggerated.

The pols follow the voters and there's a very large chunk of the voting public own their own houses and don't give two damns about rental costs.

smellyoldboot

coolbeans wrote: »

So do you hâte all landlords or just the accidental types described above?

Just the amateur greedy Irish ones tbh. There's plenty (albeit very few on this soggy dump) that see it for what is: a long term investment in a large asset that can be cost offset by renting it out, rather than a quick buck or something that somebody else must cover all the cost for in entirety.

smellyoldboot

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I've always wondered how many properties are owned by TDs, in total and as an average. I suspect it's not more than two each at most, probably more like one. After tax I exepct the average TD is making next to fúck all in comparison to the massive salary and benefits. I'd expect they'd make more, in cash flow terms, by fidling mileage.

The mileage fiddle doesn't do much for the retirement nest egg thought.

Someone else is covering your costs for both however.

beauf

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Just the amateur greedy Irish ones tbh. There's plenty (albeit very few on this soggy dump) that see it for what is: a long term investment in a large asset that can be cost offset by renting it out, rather than a quick buck or something that somebody else must cover all the cost for in entirety.

You'd be ok with non Irish landlords then? English for example?

I'm curious though. How is something a better investment the more the investor puts into it Vs the investor putting less into it but getting the same return.

smellyoldboot

beauf wrote: »

You'd be ok with non Irish landlords then? English for example?

I'm curious though. How is something a better investment the more the investor puts into it Vs the investor putting less into it but getting the same return.

It's not, property in Ireland seems to be a great investment. Rent controls are laughable to non-existent. The tenant basically covers the entire cost of the mortgage for you plus maintenance and even s bit of profit that yes you have to pay the awful tax man from.

It's sod all to do with nationality, just this being Ireland, most of our small landlords will be Irish.

There are German REITs betting the farm on property here too engaging in gouging they wouldn't be left do in their own country.

Hopefully the aftershock to all this has a cleansing effect and exposes what the real value of property in Ireland should be.

beauf

So basically theres nothing in what you wrote that even you agree with.

smellyoldboot

beauf wrote: »

So basically theres nothing in what you wrote that even you agree with.

Oh there is. I hope the arse falls out of the market altogether and reality hits hard.

beauf

smellyoldboot wrote: »

...Rent controls are laughable to non-existent. ....

When People demanded rent controls they were told they wouldn't fix the problem. Seems they were right.

beauf

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Oh there is. I hope the arse falls out of the market altogether and reality hits hard.

The reality being what exactly?

Mad_maxx

smellyoldboot wrote: »

It's not, property in Ireland seems to be a great investment. Rent controls are laughable to non-existent. The tenant basically covers the entire cost of the mortgage for you plus maintenance and even s bit of profit that yes you have to pay the awful tax man from.

It's sod all to do with nationality, just this being Ireland, most of our small landlords will be Irish.

There are German REITs betting the farm on property here too engaging in gouging they wouldn't be left do in their own country.

Hopefully the aftershock to all this has a cleansing effect and exposes what the real value of property in Ireland should be.

You don't get to rent a property in Germany, refuse to pay rent yet remain in place for two years and finally leave the joint like a bomb went off inside it while walking away Scott free

No better country in Europe for rogue tenants, politicians in Parliament will rally behind you to boot

smellyoldboot

Mad_maxx wrote: »

You don't get to rent a property in Germany, refuse to pay rent yet remain in place for two years and finally leave the joint like a bomb went off inside it while walking away Scott free

No better country in Europe for rogue tenants, politicians in Parliament will rally behind you to boot

Agreed. We certainly are lacking in any kind of personal responsibility. But allowing gouging on the level that it takes place in Ireland to occur in place of real legislation is laissez-faire abdication of responsibility that belongs in the 19th century.

That said there are very few places to match Dublin in particular for the disparity between salaries and rents and those that do are very much global cities with populations and draw factors that far outweigh Dublin.

It all looks and feels very artificially inflated/propped up and that particular house of cards can't fall quick enough.

Geuze

AlanG wrote: »

Very selective starting date. Lots of landlords still in negative equity since 2005-2008.

How can any house owner be in negative equity since 2008?

I find that very hard to believe?

They would have made 12 years of mortgage repayments, so surely the mortgage balance is now below the house value?

beauf

The market will try to get best price it can. If the govt wants to control it they can. They set up the RPZ in a way that penalised those on below market rates, so encouraging price increases. It also encouraged those on low rents to leave the market and new landlords to enter the market on max rents.

You don't do that by accident.

Similarly in the middle of a historic housing crisis especially in affordable and social housing. You dont stop building that type of housing. You don't privatise the least profitable housing. Because that will be the last thing people will build.

beauf

Geuze wrote: »

How can any house owner be in negative equity since 2008?

I find that very hard to believe?

They would have made 12 years of mortgage repayments, so surely the mortgage balance is now below the house value?

Most mortgages will be 20-30 yrs. 12yrs in you're probably just paid off the interest. How many in negative equity?

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/negative-equity-end-in-sight-for-homeowners-37944309.html

Geuze

beauf wrote: »

Most mortgages will be 20-30 yrs. 12yrs in you're probably just paid off the interest. How many in negative equity?

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/negative-equity-end-in-sight-for-homeowners-37944309.html

Capital is repaid each and every year of a mortgage.

Less capital in the early years, yes, ok. But still some.

Let's assume a 25 yr mortgage. After 12 years, I am guessing 1/3 of the capital is repaid.

House value = 100.
Mortgage = 90
After 12 years, mortgage = 60

Are there houses in 2020 below 60% of their 2008 value?

Maybe in Ballyhaunis?

Geuze

beauf wrote: »

Most mortgages will be 20-30 yrs. 12yrs in you're probably just paid off the interest. How many in negative equity?

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/negative-equity-end-in-sight-for-homeowners-37944309.html

Yes, that article says that negative equity should disappear by 2020.

beauf

There more than one type of mortgage.

That article suggests about 16000 still in negative equity and getting out in 2020. That might be 2021 now...

Yyhhuuu

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Hopefully the aftershock of the pandemic will be a real hard lesson for Ireland's greedy landlord class. I've no time for anyone's hard luck "accidental" landlord or "negative equity" stories either. That lot are the greediest baxtards of all, expecting some poor shmuck to cover the mortgage on their ****ty investment and a little top up to boot all the while moaning about paying taxes.

Talk about bedgrugary. There are many good landlords out there who dont overcharge and provide a service. Dont you forget over half the rent goes back to the government to pay taxes to support welfare recipients, health ( where there is a huge overspend even pre-covid).etc etc by the way many landlords are selling up and this means less property for renters so rents go up. It's simple supply and demand.

biko

Ask your favourite local politician if they are a landlord. If they are, ask what they charge in rent.

housetypeb

biko wrote: »

Ask your favourite local politician if they are a landlord. If they are, ask what they charge in rent.

What would that prove?

y0ssar1an22

LuasSimon wrote: »

Minding her everyone’s cup of tea but David McWilliams article in today’s IT lays out the facts .


Irish rents have gone up 62.4% since since 2010 whilst wages have gone up 20%. So as each year goes by people have less and less money left after paying their rent . How can wage increases or inflation not include such a big a factor as the percentage increases in rent when awarding wage increases or annual inflation figures .Many people with less disposable income leads to other business having less customers and closing down like many pubs etc ..... the only ones winning are landlords??

if it is true, thats a function of supply vs demand.

the gov removed a huge chunk of the supply in their endeavour to meet the supply by removing landlords' rights.

zero forethought, zero ****s given to property owners; and now the consequences.

biko

housetypeb wrote: »

What would that prove?

You want lower rents? You need to challenge the people that can influence that using legislation.
Or I suppose people can keep posting here while nothing happens IRL..