Air Rifle Ammunition Quantity on Licence

skydaver

Hi All, I'm just the feelers out there to all in the Air Rifle community to see what quantities of Air Rifle ammunition they are allowed on their licences and if any of you know of what New/First time applicants have been granted on their licences recently. Background on this is I have just had my first firearms licence refused for a .22 Air Rifle on the grounds i applied for 5000 pellets(told 10000 was norm) and wouldn't take the 200 offered by the firearms officer. I specified vermin shooting only as whilst I do intend and want to visit a shooting range occasionally I don't want to have to join as would be mandatory and conditional to the licence if specified.
Thanks in advance for any input.
Dave

Peppa Cig

Most air rifle pellets are sold in tins of 500 so you would need that at least.

I am licenced for 500. Looked for 2000 and was given 500.

So in theory - mid vermin control I have to stop work and go to the RFD 50 miles away and get another tin.

Go figure!

BattleCorp

skydaver wrote: »

Hi All, I'm just the feelers out there to all in the Air Rifle community to see what quantities of Air Rifle ammunition they are allowed on their licences and if any of you know of what New/First time applicants have been granted on their licences recently. Background on this is I have just had my first firearms licence refused for a .22 Air Rifle on the grounds i applied for 5000 pellets(told 10000 was norm) and wouldn't take the 200 offered by the firearms officer. I specified vermin shooting only as whilst I do intend and want to visit a shooting range occasionally I don't want to have to join as would be mandatory and conditional to the licence if specified.
Thanks in advance for any input.
Dave

Have you the refusal in writing? If not, ask for the refusal in writing. Then you can plot your next course of action.

nophd08

I got 3000 on my licence after explaining the above points.
I think you should have taken the 1000 that was offered by your super the first time around. Easier then to get it modified at a later date when you explain the difficulties in having just 200.

skydaver

BattleCorp wrote: »

Have you the refusal in writing? If not, ask for the refusal in writing. Then you can plot your next course of action.

Yes just received it, going to appeal. Was hoping for feedback from community to get an idea of what's normal quantity of ammunition these days.

skydaver

Peppa Cig wrote: »

Most air rifle pellets are sold in tins of 500 so you would need that at least.

I am licenced for 500. Looked for 2000 and was given 500.

So in theory - mid vermin control I have to stop work and go to the RFD 50 miles away and get another tin.

Go figure!

Yeah these quantities being imposed are completely impractical.

BattleCorp

skydaver wrote: »

Yes just received it, going to appeal. Was hoping for feedback from community to get an idea of what's normal quantity of ammunition these days.

I'm not an expert but I think your main grounds for an appeal is that ammo is normally sold in tins of 500. You can't go into a gun dealer and buy 40% of a tin of pellets.

Out of curiosity, what's the wording of the refusal?

skydaver

nophd08 wrote: »

I got 3000 on my licence after explaining the above points.
I think you should have taken the 1000 that was offered by your super the first time around. Easier then to get it modified at a later date when you explain the difficulties in having just 200.

I wish he offered 1000😂 could have lived with 2 tins pellets. What I said was 10,000 was mentioned to me as the norm to apply for by a few people but apply for 5,000 as its your first licence. 200 is what's on offer from the Gardaí.

skydaver

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm not an expert but I think your main grounds for an appeal is that ammo is normally sold in tins of 500. You can't go into a gun dealer and buy 40% of a tin of pellets.

Out of curiosity, what's the wording of the refusal?

Yes that's going to be part of my counter argument.
The quantity applied for is the main reason for refusal. According to commissioner's guidelines I can only get 200 for vermin control. Other reasons given are... The consequences of my airgun and ammunition getting into the wrong hands, concern that I am a first time licence, the fact they believe there can't be that much vermin on the lands I wish to shoot, the fact I have no intention to join a gun club(only because I don't want it made a condition of having an air rifle and only being allowed shoot on club lands or a target range)
Also mentioned was they believe there is a proliferation of firearms/ammunition in the district. (Clare)

BattleCorp

skydaver wrote: »

Yes that's going to be part of my counter argument.
The quantity applied for is the main reason for refusal. According to commissioner's guidelines I can only get 200 for vermin control. Other reasons given are... The consequences of my airgun and ammunition getting into the wrong hands, concern that I am a first time licence, the fact they believe there can't be that much vermin on the lands I wish to shoot, the fact I have no intention to join a gun club(only because I don't want it made a condition of having an air rifle and only being allowed shoot on club lands or a target range)
Also mentioned was they believe there is a proliferation of firearms/ammunition in the district. (Clare)

The Commissioner's Guidelines aren't law. They are only recommendations.

Those reasons are a pile of sh1te too to be honest.

The one about you being a first time licencee is absolutely crap. Everyone was a first time licencee at one stage. You are also under no obligation to join a gun club so that's a bullsh1t reason too.

If I was in your shoes I'd certainly be appealing.

BattleCorp

Firstly, I am not a legal expert so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

Before you appeal, you need to have your argument prepared. You need to tackle every point on the refusal letter. Others may come up with better ideas but my thinking is this:

1. Ammo Limit - Argument - Most manufacturers only sell airgun pellets in tins of 500. Commissioner's Guidelines are unrealistic in relation to airgun pellets.

2. Consequences of gun and ammo falling into wrong hands - Argument - You have a safe that complies with BS7558 (which you should have) and that you comply with SI 307/2009.

3. Concern that you are a first time licence - Argument - Everybody who owns a gun was a first time licencee at some point. Seriously, how can this be a reason?

4. Not enough vermin on the land you intend to shoot - Argument - yes there is. If you only occasionally shoot vermin, that's still a valid reason for owning a firearm. Did you get permission from other farmers/land owners to shoot on their land? Might be no harm to get some more land permissions to reduce the effectiveness of this reason for your licence refusal.

5. No intention of joining a gun club/range - Argument - Absolutely no legal obligation to join a range or a gun club. Hunting and vermin control are stand-alone reasons for needing a firearm.

6. Proliferation of firearms/amminition in the area - Argument - Don't know how you argue against that. Maybe others have some advice there.

Bogwoppit

BattleCorp wrote: »

Firstly, I am not a legal expert so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

Before you appeal, you need to have your argument prepared. You need to tackle every point on the refusal letter. Others may come up with better ideas but my thinking is this:

1. Ammo Limit - Argument - Most manufacturers only sell airgun pellets in tins of 500. Commissioner's Guidelines are unrealistic in relation to airgun pellets.

2. Consequences of gun and ammo falling into wrong hands - Argument - You have a safe that complies with BS7558 (which you should have) and that you comply with SI 307/2009.

3. Concern that you are a first time licence - Argument - Everybody who owns a gun was a first time licencee at some point. Seriously, how can this be a reason?

4. Not enough vermin on the land you intend to shoot - Argument - yes there is. If you only occasionally shoot vermin, that's still a valid reason for owning a firearm. Did you get permission from other farmers/land owners to shoot on their land? Might be no harm to get some more land permissions to reduce the effectiveness of this reason for your licence refusal.

5. No intention of joining a gun club/range - Argument - Absolutely no legal obligation to join a range or a gun club. Hunting and vermin control are stand-alone reasons for needing a firearm.

6. Proliferation of firearms/amminition in the area - Argument - Don't know how you argue against that. Maybe others have some advice there.

6. There was no objection to the firearm license in the first place, the ammo limit has no bearing on the number of firearms in the area.

The pigeon man

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I would contact a solicitor and ask for a meeting with the super after you've prepared a cohesive argument.

10,000 is a lot of pellets but they're inert pieces of lead. 200 is an unworkable limit with air rifles. You would find it nearly impossible to buy ammunition in such quantities.

Gun club an irrelevant argument. You don't have to be a member of gunclub.

On the aspect of not being enough vermin on the land. What knowledge do the Gardaí have of the vermin on the land you shoot on?

Proliferation of firearms is irrelevant. Licenses for firearms are dealt with on an individual case by case basis. Proliferation of licensed firearms isn't an inherently bad thing. Great to see more people taking up the sport.

skydaver

The pigeon man wrote: »

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I would contact a solicitor and ask for a meeting with the super after you've prepared a cohesive argument.

10,000 is a lot of pellets but they're inert pieces of lead. 200 is an unworkable limit with air rifles. You would find it nearly impossible to buy ammunition in such quantities.

Gun club an irrelevant argument. You don't have to be a member of gunclub.

On the aspect of not being enough vermin on the land. What knowledge do the Gardaí have of the vermin on the land you shoot on?

Proliferation of firearms is irrelevant. Licenses for firearms are dealt with on an individual case by case basis. Proliferation of licensed firearms isn't an inherently bad thing. Great to see more people taking up the sport.

That's the plan I'm going to go with I think, first lodge an appeal with the courts and then seek a meeting with the super.

solarwinds

ALL those reasons for refusal are rubbish, absolutely none of them were a concern were you willing to accept a 200 limit on ammo. But now there is a big list of reasons for refusal ?

garrettod

skydaver wrote: »

That's the plan I'm going to go with I think, first lodge an appeal with the courts and then seek a meeting with the super.

I would meet with the super first, if I were you.

A sensible, rational, conversion might lead to a change of decision.

The lads above have made plenty of good points, for you to use at the meeting. If it were me, I'd also concede immediately on the 5,000 rounds and just say that you had been hoping to get discounts for bulk purchase, along with wanting to minimise the time and cost of travelling to your nearest pellet retailer etc.

If it doesn't work, you've only lost an extra week or two.

However, once you get solicitors involved, you make it near impossible for the Gardai to back down, and so you loose a few years, even if you do ultimately win your case (which I would expect you would, assuming no other reason for the decline).

Try and remember that while you only want an air rifle, it's the exact same as a .22 rimfire rifle, in the eyes of the Gardai.

BattleCorp

garrettod wrote: »

Try and remember that while you only want an air rifle, it's the exact same as a .22 rimfire rifle, in the eyes of the Gardai.

It's absolutely amazing how many Gardai appear to have received absolutely no training on firearms or the licencing procedure when they are in Templemore.

The Garda I was dealing with recently (I was doing a substitution) didn't know what form was needed for a substitution. He gave me out the form for changing my details (such as moving house etc.). When I handed in the correct completed application form an hour or so later I got the impression that he had never seen the FAC1 form before because he asked me why I had separate letters for where I lived previously, why I needed the firearm etc. The FAC1 form specifically asks for them.

This isn't me 'having a go at the Gardai' by the way. The Garda I was dealing with was a gent and it's not his fault he didn't appear to be trained properly. In fact any time I've had licencing problems I always found the Gardai pleasant to deal with. That said, I've never had a ridiculous refusal such as the OP.