Newfie parents!

Any other peeps here who are parents to a Newfie?
My Frasier is 14 months old. Every time I think he has stopped growing he has another spurt. He's now able to eat very easily off the kitchen table and steal from the counter.

I wasn't prepared for his independent streak! All I read about Newfies seems to cover from three years on when they grow a brain (been promised this by other Newfie owners!) His disobedience is deliberate. He looks you right in the eye then runs off anyway. He's smart, but not outright obviously smart like many dogs are. He spent 30 minutes trying to find a way out of the dog park. That kind of smart.

Having only ever owned Labs this lad is a new special experience for me. Would love to chat with other owners.

He grew up with a kitten, a massive fat lump we call CeCe. They genuinely think they are brother and sister. It's too cute.

Graces7

Lovely post; thank you!

The only time I ever saw my wee dog intimidated was when we met a Newfie. She started at the feet, and her gaze travelled up the legs, then chest, and I could have sworn her jaw dropped!

peasant

Not a Newfie but a St.Bernard X Lab, same size, different coat...
He stopped growing at about 18 months and stopped filling in at about 36 months.
Final weight ..68 kg; shoulder height 70 cm.

For the last few years (he's six now) he has been the most gentle, laid back and friendly dog imaginable. I wouldn't necessarily call him obedient but rather co-operative.
He does have his own head and the decision making process can sometimes take quite some time. Calling him in from the garden for example...there is usually a time lapse between receiving our request and the follow-through of a minute or two. He always comes ...just at his own pace.

For more urgent maneuvering inside the house, where we don't have minutes to wait, we have come to a plain and simple bribery agreement. If he needs to move in a hurry, we tempt him with food. If he feels particularly generous he will move without being "paid", but there'd better be a double size treat the next time (a good 10% of all the pasta in our house never sees the pot, but goes straight into the dog for bribes)

On walks, he's on the lead at most times. Not only because the recall might be iffy in certain circumstances, but also simply because not everybody appreciates being approached by a loose giant dog, no matter how friendly he is.
To compensate, the lead is rather long at ca 3m, which gives him enough freedom to read "the news" and move ahead or lag behind. (We've never trained him to walk to heel because IMO that's not what a walk is about..if he needs to be closer I just shorten the lead).

When he's actually off lead, we stay in constant communication. He knows by my voice or gestures when he's good, when he's reached the boundary and when he REALLY needs to come back ...which in fairness he does. I know by his looks and demeanor which signals to use. That is something which hasn't really been trained but rather has been learned by both sides through habituation.

The only command that we have trained extensively and which gets refreshed every now and then (when I remember to bring training aids, i.e treats) is the command "HEEEEERE". Loud, in a deep voice and like I really mean it ...that one reliably stops him in his tracks and brings him back to me (for a treat or a big cuddle as reward). I don't over-use this, it's only for when it really counts.

We're a great team now, we both know how loosely the rules can be applied.
His behaviour now is impeccable...but never to be compared to that of a well trained Border Collie or German Shepherd. Immediacy is not in his vocabulary

I do have to confess, that during his totally obstinate teenager phase, we had one major breakdown in communications. The friendly, co-operative, give-and take approach was not working. He simply refused. He just used his bulk, plonked down somewhere and plain refused to react to anything. Friendly requests, not so friendly ones, sheer anger and even food ...no reaction. He was just telling me to eff off. Once this started to happen more often I had to resort to drastic measures (something I don't like to do, not least because it could also go terribly wrong). I snuck up behind the immovable object, grabbed his hind legs by the ankles, lifted his back up and wheelbarrow-ed him to where I wanted him to be. This left a lasting impression.
To this day, on the very few occasions that he doesn't want to move, all I need to do is line myself up behind him and he will change his mind.

Generally speaking though, when dealing with such a big dog, force will get you nowhere and is downright dangerous. You really have to learn to read your dog, understand what he is about (not) to do and and interrupt his train of thought with your directions before said train reaches the station ...because if it does, it will be stationary for a while before there is movement again

Overall though, he is the most pleasant and least stressful dog I've ever had the pleasure of sharing my life with ...wouldn't swop him for millions.

One last caveat:
My wife, who weighs considerably less than the dog, is perfectly happy to deal with him around the house and the secure garden...and he is perfectly willing to co-operate with her.
In the outside world it is me (who is quite a bit heavier than him) who is at the other end of the lead. Because after all that's been said about him being soft, gentle and co-operative ...he is still a dog. The wrong trigger at the wrong time could set the instincts kicking in and the only control you have then is a strong lead and a strong anchor. Only happened to us once so far (a strange dog tried to attack him)...but you never know and it's your responsibility at the end of the day.

Oh and as for stealing food off the counter (or straight off the cooker) ...he knows perfectly well that he's not supposed to do that..but we have also been reliably informed not to tempt him by leaving anything within reach when leaving him alone in the kitchen ...works both ways, you see:D

Choc Chip

Your post proper made me laugh pheasant. He sounds a complete character.

I will say, that i do take minor exception to the insinuation that someone smaller and lighter than the dog can't handle them. :cool:

If i take my dogs out together, they weigh more than me. If i wasn't allowed to take out animals that weigh more, i'd never be allowed near a horse. My presence, the training i've done, and, if absolutely necessary, tools and management, mean that I take out a lot of animals that weigh a lot more than me, totally safely.

In fairness, if my sheppy absolutely wanted to get to something, turned and redirected on my husband, he'd have no chance of holding her. But it wouldn't ever happen. Similarly, no matter the context, she wouldn't dream of trying to pull me over. She may have a moment and lunge in extreme circumstances (sheep are her nemesis), but I cannot foresee a situation where she'd forget herself so much that she would continue so she pulled me over. And if it was, it'd be something so extreme that i wouldn't rule out biting. In which case, no one could stop her.

I don't know your dog, so can't speak to them, but it just peeves me a little when folk insinuate that the womenfolk are too weak to handle big dogs.

That's my rant - carry on!

tk123

Choc Chip wrote: »

but it just peeves me a little when folk insinuate that the womenfolk are too weak to handle big dogs.

Thank you!!

OP my experiences of newfs and their parents where we walk have always left me irritated I’m afraid. The dogs size is used as an excuse for their lack of training and manners as well as their owners general cop on.

peasant

Choc Chip wrote: »

I don't know your dog, so can't speak to them, but it just peeves me a little when folk insinuate that the womenfolk are too weak to handle big dogs.

That's my rant - carry on!

That's not really what I wanted to insinuate, but it kind of is

Let me put it another way. Training and handling Benno (that's his name) has convinced me that I would never want to be responsible for something like a pure breed St. Bernard or a Mastiff or whatever other dog that might weigh as much (or more than) me.

And it's not so much a thing of not trusting my dog or my training ..we have had no mishaps so far and he really is a gentle soul.
But there is that whole strange attitude that some people have when it comes to dogs and their control ...the "what if it was a small child - syndrome".

I'm 99% sure that Benno would never harm a fly ..but he could easily - accidentally - knock someone over, injure a small animal or just coat somebody in shlobber if he ever wasn't under effective control and a bit over-exited for whatever reason.
And we all now that phrase and what the dire consequences might be for the dog if some a**hole with a greedy lawyer decides to take a case against you.

To effectively control a dog as big and strong as Benno in a push comes to shove situation you definitely need to be bigger and stronger than him.

And it really isn't that I wouldn't trust my wife with him ..I just don't trust all the potential idiots that we meet on a regular basis.

One example from a few years ago:

We were on an agricicultural type show outdoors, you know the kind with dog shows, foodstalls and tents with stuff for sale ..that kinda thing.

There's this woman with two small girls (I guess 4 and 6). She wants to go inside one of the tents, the kids don't want to and make a scene. So that lady has the brilliant idea to tell her kids to " go say hello to the nice doggy over there" (without asking me first) ..shoves the kids in Benno's direction and disappears into the tent. :eek:

So far so bad ... Benno and I would have been able to handle this ...unwillingly and unhappily, but I wouldn't have been worried. He's been cuddled by kids before without asking first and didn't bat an eylid.

But these two kids were carrying ice-creams !
Benno looooves ice cream. So he sees these two girls coming and his focus goes straight for the ice- cream and he starts to pull like a train.

To the great disappointment of the two girls I managed to hold on to him and drag him away to safety.

My wife wouldn't have been able to. I'm sure Benno wouldn't have done anything worse than to steal the two girls' cones and then evenly distribute them over the girls faces, together with copious amounts of slobber.
But I'm not so sure what that stupid lady would have done on seeing that happen ...and that's why I advocate strong control of a big dog.

If your wife can't manage your strong dog you're using the wrong harness.

peasant

Deleted User wrote: »

If your wife can't manage your strong dog you're using the wrong harness.

We use this type, what do you have?

peasant

peasant wrote: »

We use this type, what do you have?

My dog is in a Halti harness, definitely heavier than I am, though I have my doubts that he is "stronger". There is no excuse for a large dog to be out of control. I wouldn't trust my husband to walk him because of his inexperience. Those things you describe, yes he'd definitely try to pull those moves on him. With me, not so much, because he's under control.

peasant

Deleted User wrote: »

. With me, not so much, because he's under control.

Is he really?

Deleted User wrote: »

His disobedience is deliberate.

Graces7

peasant wrote: »

Is he really?

Having only ever had a small dog; surely the actual weight of the dog comes into play here? I did not read the situation re the ice cream as ever the dog being "out of control" either.

peasant; enthralled by your posts! Thank you.

peasant

peasant wrote: »

Is he really?

Well yes, because he's on the lead. He's under control.

I always find it hilarious when people think their dog "has no recall", but "usually comes back".

Choc Chip

peasant wrote: »

We use this type, what do you have?

that harness isn't going to give you a whole pile of control - probably less than a flat collar. If i had to walk a dog who was likely to pull, i'd use a front connection harness, or headcollar if absolutely necessary

i've been horse riding since I was 5 and i've worked with cows- i've no issues controlling animals who are heavier than me, but male or female, if you're relying on weight/force only you're onto a loser.

In your story, that's a training issue - none of my dogs would pull towards icecream. If it was me (because i hate being pulled with a passion) I'd work a lot on his lead walking in calmer situations and build up distractions slowly until he was able to calmly ignore the kids and ice cream and walk away with you. But that's me and I really enjoy training - if you're happy with your situation, and it works for you, fair play!

OP, I'm sorry, I don't have a newfie and i'm dragging your thread totally off-topic so I promise i'll climb back in my feminist box now!

Choc Chip

Choc Chip wrote: »

that harness isn't going to give you a whole pile of control - probably less than a flat collar. If i had to walk a dog who was likely to pull, i'd use a front connection harness, or headcollar if absolutely necessary

i've been horse riding since I was 5 and i've worked with cows- i've no issues controlling animals who are heavier than me, but male or female, if you're relying on weight/force only you're onto a loser.

In your story, that's a training issue - none of my dogs would pull towards icecream. If it was me (because i hate being pulled with a passion) I'd work a lot on his lead walking in calmer situations and build up distractions slowly until he was able to calmly ignore the kids and ice cream and walk away with you. But that's me and I really enjoy training - if you're happy with your situation, and it works for you, fair play!

OP, I'm sorry, I don't have a newfie and i'm dragging your thread totally off-topic so I promise i'll climb back in my feminist box now!

Not at all, you're pretty much saying what I was attempting to anyway.

And none of the other posters in this thread have Newfies either so it's all of us going off topic now!

I just looked at him and shouted "There can be only one!" I think he enjoyed that.

tk123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not at all, you're pretty much saying what I was attempting to anyway.

And none of the other posters in this thread have Newfies either so it's all of us going off topic now!

I just looked at him and shouted "There can be only one!" I think he enjoyed that.

If you’re in Dublin St Anne’s have a Newfie meet-up every now and again.. well they did before pandemic times(!). From your posts you sound like you’re doing a good job - you obviously don’t want him running amok and know the difference between him being under control or not.

tk123

tk123 wrote: »

If you’re in Dublin St Anne’s have a Newfie meet-up every now and again.. well they did before pandemic times(!). From your posts you sound like you’re doing a good job - you obviously don’t want him running amok and know the difference between him being under control or not.

That's cool, I never managed to find any Newfie groups. We go to Leonberger meet ups some times, he fits right in. The dogs make him look like a little tyke.

Choc Chip

tk123 wrote: »

Thank you!!

OP my experiences of newfs and their parents where we walk have always left me irritated I’m afraid. The dogs size is used as an excuse for their lack of training and manners as well as their owners general cop on.

I can't like the second part of this post because I know a newfie breeder who has the loveliest dogs. Like big, placid, friendly teddies.

Newfies are willful animals that take a lot of training. But most descriptions of them list "placid, calm, lazy" etc. This appears to be the main reason year old Newfies pop up in rescues. Certainly not in their first year, they don't come anywhere close to that description. And some of those that are kept are probably done by people who don't have the experience or know how to put in the hours of very patient training required.

See it with many dogs, but when it comes to a 75kg beast, it's a lot more noticeable!

I walk dogs for a living, so to me it's not even work. I had to put in as much time training the husband to train the dog, and he's getting there!

Choc Chip

Deleted User wrote: »

Newfies are willful animals that take a lot of training. But most descriptions of them list "placid, calm, lazy" etc. This appears to be the main reason year old Newfies pop up in rescues. Certainly not in their first year, they don't come anywhere close to that description. And some of those that are kept are probably done by people who don't have the experience or know how to put in the hours of very patient training required.

See it with many dogs, but when it comes to a 75kg beast, it's a lot more noticeable!

I walk dogs for a living, so to me it's not even work. I had to put in as much time training the husband to train the dog, and he's getting there!

Training the husband is a road I'm not going to even attempt to go down.

Choc Chip

Choc Chip wrote: »

Training the husband is a road I'm not going to even attempt to go down.

Something had to give... I used to cringe when I saw him holding the lead by the very end and just following the Newf down the road!

I have him in a front attached harness and with that I can hold him with one hand, leaving the other hand free in case I need to grab collar too (or in a headlock as had to do once!) I always hold the lead same as I did reins, flat across my palm with my thumb on top. Certainly get a bit of dressage out of the beast on occasion. Does a great collected trot.

peasant

Well..either my writing style is to flowery or too long or whatever, but I think you thoroughly misunderstood what I was saying and I need to clarify a few things

Benno does not pull on the lead.
He walks on the lead perfectly. Sometimes ahead, behind or to the side (because I let him) but he never pulls. Hence we don't need a tricky harness and never have.
Different story is when he gets triggered and loses the run of himself ..then he does pull . In six years that has happend exactly three times so far ...once was the ice cream incident, the other two were dogs going for him.
All in all I would say he is under control...to both our satisfaction.

Recall.
Like every dog owner knows, the definition of recall needs an algorithm. . Distance between owner and dog vs distance between dog and distraction.
On an empty beach, I can reliably recall him from half a mile away. The same beach with people and other dogs running after balls ...the distance falls below 10 m. A forest track with deer in the woods and bends I can't see around ...and he's on the lead. Within those parameters he has perfect recall. And if I ever have to use the last ditch "HEEEERE" command that means I was asleep and let him wander off too far...he still comes back though.

Obedience.
Ye seem to have become hung up on the fact that sometimes it takes a minute or two before he comes in from the garden when recalled.
That's because I don't care. That's always a request, not a command. The garden is fenced in, 100% safe. It was made that way for our dogs to use and enjoy. So, if he wants to enjoy it for a bit longer, he is free to do so.
If I really need him inside I'll go and collect him and he'll come.

Which leads me to the main point of all my writings ...working with / the training of a big strong dog with a big strong will and mind of its own.

I don't know what training methods you all use, so I don't want to comment on those. I'd just like to repeat a few remarks from my experience that may or may not be useful for other people with big dogs:

First you need to realise:
A big, strong and strong-willed dog (BSSD for future reference) will sooner or later (mostly sooner) realise that it doesn't have to if it doesn't want to and that you can't make it either.

Then you need to understand:
The only reason a BSSD doesn't totally ignore you, just sit on you or worst case scenario threaten to kill you (which he could, no problem) is because these dogs usually come with breeding that has turned them into co-operative softies (nobody in their right mind would breed from a 70kg+ dog that has the behaviour characteristics of a working terrier for example)

So put one and two together:
Do not awaken the beast. To keep your BSSD soft and co-operative avoid doing the following things;
- do not annoy him with pointless commands. The umpteenth sit/stay/down for no good reason and he will refuse.
- do not overtax him with endless training repetitions. He knows what you want ..he just doesn't want to do it right now. Give him a break, try again later.
- give him some leeway. He's got this. He got the jist of the message. He will do it ..just not quickly and probably not perfectly either (at least not all the time). If you want perfection...get a Collie and dance to music.

In short if you want your BSSD to become the "placid, calm, lazy" dog that he was advertised as, you have to be bit of the same in your attitude. Not a walkover mind you, just not a perfectionist or a dictator. I you want him to be your reliable, cuddly friend you have to be his too.
Some border lines have to be set and not be crossed, but within those borders, let him do his own coloring in ...or not



Oh and one more thing...

I have never nor will I ever refer to or think of myself as a dog's "parent".
I don't suppose that has any influence over the dog's behaviour however

Honestly dude your writing type is definitely flowery, long, and we're not actually talking about the same breed at the end of the day. I owned Labs and ponies but neither was the same as a Newfie. Both smilar, but not the same.

I only suggested that if your dog is too hard for your wife to hold, it's got the wrong harness on. Years of experience in my work has taught me to use the right tools for the situation. I didn't comment on your dog, because I have never owned or walked a St Bernard cross so I wouldn't think I am qualified to tell you what to do with it. That's a two way street.

peasant

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't comment on your dog, because I have never owned or walked a St Bernard cross so I wouldn't think I am qualified to tell you what to do with it. That's a two way street.

Message received ...I'll bugger off out of your Newfie thread so.
Good luck

peasant

peasant wrote: »

Message received ...I'll bugger off out of your Newfie thread so.
Good luck

Don't take it too personally. We weren't talking about your dog. I'm sure he's a great dog! No one made comment on your dog's behaviour or recall.

I do suggest a front attached Halti harness to every large breed owner, same as it was advised to me. It was the best advice I ever got for Frasier. Can literally hold him with one hand.