MHC requirements in applications

Hillary_2314

Would anyone know why Mason Hayes & Curran would require a photo in the summer internship application form. Don’t see any good reason as to why they would need it

Samuel T. Cogley

Civil Service requires them throughout the application process too. I could be a security precaution to ensure the person making the application is actually the person that shows up at any given stage of the process including day 1.

GarIT

Yeah could be a brand image thing. They don't want to hire people with a certain look, visible tattoos maybe, or just hygiene.

Victor

GarIT wrote: »

Yeah could be a brand image thing. They don't want to hire people with a certain look, visible tattoos maybe.

In some places, it could be racism or other bigotry.

GarIT

Victor wrote: »

In some places, it could be racism or other bigotry.

Yeah, it could be.

Calahonda52

Hillary_2314 wrote: »

Would anyone know why Mason Hayes & Curran would require a photo in the summer internship application form. Don’t see any good reason as to why they would need it

Why do you think its wrong?
Try FB etc without a mug shot

Should be prohibited from seeking a photo as part of recruitment process.

Candidates should also be allowed wear something over their heads at interviews, like a brown paper bag or whatever.

GarIT

ecoli3136 wrote: »

Should be prohibited from seeking a photo as part of recruitment process.

Candidates should also be allowed wear something over their heads at interviews, like a brown paper bag or whatever.

What about sales and marketing positions? Appearance is important in a lot of situations.


I don't think there is a ban on head coverings, but if they did wear something to hide their head you know who won't be getting hired.

Victor

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Why do you think its wrong?
Try FB etc without a mug shot

If you mean Facebook? My profile pic is a Southpark-style caricature of me.

Hillary_2314

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Why do you think its wrong?
Try FB etc without a mug shot

As someone who doesn’t look anything like 98% of the people working there, I’m afraid my application will not be considered through biases whether they even realise it or not.

IgoPAP

Hillary_2314 wrote: »

As someone who doesn’t look anything like 98% of the people working there, I’m afraid my application will not be considered through biases whether they even realise it or not.

As someone who doesn't look like 99% of the people that work in a typical Irish corporate law firm, I wouldn't be too worried. I asked about this before and they told me that they use the photo at reception when you come in for an interview to make sure you're the right person. The application process is typically blind anyways.

GarIT

Hillary_2314 wrote: »

As someone who doesn’t look anything like 98% of the people working there, I’m afraid my application will not be considered through biases whether they even realise it or not.

You could be pleasnatly surprised. A lot of companies are doing their best to favour anyone that isn't a white male. The further from white male the better.


But yeah, you might not be considered and you probably wouldn't have any comeback on that if that was the case. Discriminating on race or gender is illegal but they can just says your skills or personality isn't what they were looking for.

Samuel T. Cogley

Hillary_2314 wrote: »

As someone who doesn’t look anything like 98% of the people working there, I’m afraid my application will not be considered through biases whether they even realise it or not.

If you're covered in tatoos with purple hair then possibly not, but that's corporate Ireland and frankly anyone who is intelligent enough to make the grade for an intership with a decent Law Firm knew that already.

If it's because of one of the grounds of discrimination if anything 'diversity' will stand to you.

IgoPAP

GarIT wrote: »

You could be pleasnatly surprised. A lot of companies are doing their best to favour anyone that isn't a white male. The further from white male the better.

Imagine having this sort of victim complex in the Irish corporate legal field. This demo is most of the people getting hired.

rightytighty

IgoPAP wrote: »

Imagine having this sort of victim complex in the Irish corporate legal field. This demo is most of the people getting hired.

I really don’t think this is as true as it was in the past. I know for certain that one of the top 5’s intake this year is 28F/8M

Peregrinus

Back in the day, the firm I was with asked job applicants for photographs. And the reason was surprisingly prosaic; when you've interviewed 20 different people, and you're trying afterwards to compare them and make decisions about them, it's amazingly helpful in recalling which candidate said what to have a photograph of each candidate. Basically, it's an aide-memoire for the interviewers.

(We only asked for photographs from candidates who were called to interview, because we weren't going to need the photograph unless there was an interview.)

bobbyy gee

you have to do two internships before
they offer you a permanent job look at pay before you become a solicitor its low

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

Back in the day, the firm I was with asked job applicants for photographs. And the reason was surprisingly prosaic; when you've interviewed 20 different people, and you're trying afterwards to compare them and make decisions about them, it's amazingly helpful in recalling which candidate said what to have a photograph of each candidate. Basically, it's an aide-memoire for the interviewers.

Taking notes at the interview is also a good aide-memoire.

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

Taking notes at the interview is also a good aide-memoire.

We did that too. But in practice you take relatively few notes at the interview itself - it's supposed to be a conversation, and too much note-taking interferes with that. You make notes immediately after the interview, but inevitably these are abbreviated - the next candidate is usually waiting outside - and you can't write down everything that's in your mind.

Experience showed that the photograph was] a useful aide-memoire when it came to discussing and sorting out the candidates. Because we didn't ask for it until candidates were called for interview, nobody could think that they were called or not called based on appearance. And of course we saw the candidates in the flesh at the interview; if they were concerned they were going to be judged on their appearance, the photograph had nothing to do with that, since it didn't give us any information about appearance that we couldn't get by just looking at them.

For the record, the reason we didn't ask for photographs until we called candidates for interview was precisely to avoid fears that the photograph would be used to make a judgment of that kind. I don't know at what point in the process MHC are asking for photographs. I struggle to believe that they are using facial appearance as a selection criterion - they are a respected and successful firm, and you don't get to be that by picking your people based on wildly irrational and irrelevant criteria - but I think it's important to avoid ever the suspicion of that.

AndrewJRenko

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Civil Service requires them throughout the application process too. I could be a security precaution to ensure the person making the application is actually the person that shows up at any given stage of the process including day 1.

That's not my experience with CS. I've had to show photo ID when arriving at PAS for interview, but not at application stage.

What competition requires you to submit a photo at application stage?

Samuel T. Cogley

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's not my experience with CS. I've had to show photo ID when arriving at PAS for interview, but not at application stage.

What competition requires you to submit a photo at application stage?

Here is a random TCO comp I found with a quick google.

http://www.dsfa.ie/en/pdf/TCOCompetitionNotes.pdf

AFAIK All the TCO, CO and EO competitions of atleast the last five years have have required them. Pretty sure they've even requested them for HEO internal candidates and AO external candidates.

Realtively sure the 2020 AP comp was looking for them as well but not 100%.

Mrs OBumble

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What competition requires you to submit a photo at application stage?

A friend sat tests in Dublin for the current CO panel. He had to take 4 passport size photos along on the day and leave them there.

AndrewJRenko

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A friend sat tests in Dublin for the current CO panel. He had to take 4 passport size photos along on the day and leave them there.

Yeah, bringing photos along for tests or interviews was (I thought) the standard practice.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Here is a random TCO comp I found with a quick google.

http://www.dsfa.ie/en/pdf/TCOCompetitionNotes.pdf

AFAIK All the TCO, CO and EO competitions of atleast the last five years have have required them. Pretty sure they've even requested them for HEO internal candidates and AO external candidates.

Realtively sure the 2020 AP comp was looking for them as well but not 100%.

Thanks, wasn't aware of that approach. It seems to go against the general principle of looking for the least amount of data/information that you need. If you don't have a photo, you can't be accused of discriminating based on looks. If you have a photo, you leave yourself open to such claims.

Samuel T. Cogley

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Thanks, wasn't aware of that approach. It seems to go against the general principle of looking for the least amount of data/information that you need. If you don't have a photo, you can't be accused of discriminating based on looks. If you have a photo, you leave yourself open to such claims.

Now that I think about it it could be at the supervised test stage right enough, although I would consider that part of the application stage.

Mrs OBumble

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

. If you don't have a photo, you can't be accused of discriminating based on looks. If you have a photo, you leave yourself open to such claims.

But it's perfectly legal to discriminate based on looks.

IgoPAP

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But it's perfectly legal to discriminate based on looks.

Is it legal to discriminate based on skin colour?

AndrewJRenko

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But it's perfectly legal to discriminate based on looks.

Not if the photo is used to discriminate on grounds of gender, or disability, or even (at a stretch) sexual orientation.

Peregrinus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But it's perfectly legal to discriminate based on looks.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Not if the photo is used to discriminate on grounds of gender, or disability, or even (at a stretch) sexual orientation.

And, even if you're not discriminating on any of the prohibited grounds, and therefor not doing anything illegal, it would still be extremely poor HR practice to discriminate based on looks, damaging to your reputation, and destructive of employee morale and workplace relations.

Even in cases where arbitrary and invidious discrimination is not actually illegal, it's still A Bad Thing. M'kay, kids?