Proof of Loan

Adolin

Hi All,

A friend has recently asked me for a loan. Although I wouldn't normally have an issue with loaning them money, this is quite a lot at 5000 euro. If I send that money to their bank account, is there anyway they could then claim that they didn't receive it?

I know it'll show up on my bank account online but when I look at my online account for money that I sent to other people, there's no information on that other person's bank details, rather just a brief reference that I can put in. Should I type up some sort of loan agreement form & ask them to sign it?

Loveinapril

I think the overwhelming advice you are going to get here is not to loan your friend money. Advise them to go to a bank or credit union. If they can't due to bad credit, then that will be an indicator of how likely you are to get the money back. If you decide to loan the money, go down the line of getting a solicitor to draw up a contract.

Hannibal_Smith

If you're worried your friend might claim they never received the transfer, I wouldn't lend them a cent tbh.

If you're going to go a head with it, absolutely have an agreement in place for the most important part - the manner of repayment.

Flippyfloppy

Not much of a 'friend' if you think there's the slightest possibility that would pretend they never received the money. Sounds like you shouldn't trust them with your lighter, let alone with 5,000 euro of your money.

HildaOgdenx

There's an expression about only lending money you can afford to lose. Don't do it would be my advice.

If you do go ahead, yes, absolutely, make sure you have a proper written agreement about repayment, in place.

Xterminator

HI Op

an email to your friend with a reply from her agreeing to the repayment schedule and an agreement the money is transferred electronically not via a cash handover and that repayment be made electronically or that a book is kept and signed and updated each time a payment is made. that will protect you both, and prevent and misunderstandings.

But many a friendship and family relationship is lost or fractured by lending money. Make sure you have thought through the whole thing and understand you could lose more than the principal sum involved.

cannotlogin

What do they need it for?
What can't they get a loan?
Would they lend it to you?
Can you afford to never get it back?

I would only lend money I can afford to lose & consider it gone the minute I hand it over.

If you intend to go ahead, make sure you have a solid written agreement of how much, how long for and how to will be repaid, i.e. don't put something like when they start working again, they might never etc. It has to be specific & very clear, I.e. repaid at €100 per month by way of lodgement to a/c x commencing on November 1st etc, a paragraph 're non payment etc

I would advice against it given your concerns.

Tork

I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase "Neither a borrower nor a lender be". Of course I don't know you or your friend but this reads like a recipe for disaster.

Has your friend explained why they need so much money? Most people in need of €5,000 go to the credit union or get a bank loan. Why are they unwilling or unable to go this route? If this person has trouble managing their money or existing debts, pointing them in the direction of MABS would be a better solution.
If they've run up this debt through an addiction - drugs, gambling - you'll be doing them more harm than good by enabling them. It also goes without saying that you're not going to be seeing your money paid in full and you'll probably fall out with them.

In short, you're most likely making a foolish mistake by loaning somebody such a large amount of money. If I was in your shoes, I'd be inventing some sort of costly car or house repairs and backing out of this agreement.

Sky King

Strongly suggest that you don't lend the money, for many reasons outlined above by others.

The only way I would even consider this is if I was given something of greater or equal value as collateral.

Del2005

Regardless of what agreement you come to you need to be aware that getting money from a debtor in this country is nearly impossible if they don't want to pay.

So if you don't trust them that they will confirm that they received the money, a simple way would be to transfer €5 with a code that they need to send you back as you want to verify their IBAN before you send €5k!, do you trust them to repay the debt when large corporations with in house legal departments regularly write off similar sized debts.

Adolin

Thanks to all for the helpful points. Now that I've thought about it, I did lend them money a couple of years ago but they never paid me back. It wasn't much, around €60, but still it was never mentioned again.

At the very least I'll insist that we agree to something that is indisputable should I decide to loan them the money. Then should it ever arise that they won't pay it back they can't say that they didn't get it. If there's any hesitation in what I'll demand then I'll know not to go ahead with it.

Seth Brundle

Adolin wrote: »

Thanks to all for the helpful points. Now that I've thought about it, I did lend them money a couple of years ago but they never paid me back. It wasn't much, around €60, but still it was never mentioned again.

At the very least I'll insist that we agree to something that is indisputable should I decide to loan them the money. Then should it ever arise that they won't pay it back they can't say that they didn't get it. If there's any hesitation in what I'll demand then I'll know not to go ahead with it.

If you previously loaned them money then they'll remember it and remember getting away without paying you back - which should tell you something about them.
If they don't remember then this too should tell you something.
Anyhow, I wouldn't give them anything because I know, given what you've told us, I would never see it again.

Plus, having a contract saying that you loaned them money is of no use because If they claim that they don't have it to pay you back, what will you do? Will you spend good money after bad trying to get it back?

Tork

If they couldn't pay you back a mere €60, what makes you think they'll manage €5,000? I see this as a warning sign about how trustworthy they are. Just for comparison: the only time I've ever been loaned money by a friend was the time I lost my wallet and bank cards and was short of cash for the weekend. I made it my business to repay them as soon as possible. A loan from a friend isn't something a person "forgets" and I doubt this person has forgotten either. What they will have noticed is that you didn't chase them up over this money.

Can you confirm if
1. You know what this money is for?
2. Why this friend is looking for such a large amount of money off you, rather than going to a financial institution. My feeling is that they've got a dodgy credit record and can't borrow a penny. It goes without saying that if they're not capable of saving money or repaying existing loans, why will they be any different with you?

I hate to say it but I have a suspicion this person see you as gullible and a soft touch. Are they even a friend? I think most of us wouldn't dream of asking our friends for such a large sum of money. Are you afraid of saying no to them?

Hannibal_Smith

Adolin wrote: »

At the very least I'll insist that we agree to something that is indisputable should I decide to loan them the money. Then should it ever arise that they won't pay it back they can't say that they didn't get it.

If he couldn't manage to repay €60, how is he going to repay €5,000? Admitting he got it or not is only the tip of the iceberg. If he admits he has it but can't or won't pay you back, what then?

Listen to your doubts on this one.

Victor

Is the a risk that your friend has drug or gambling debts and there is no prospect of repayment?

valoren

Do not lend them any money. If they can't get sonething like an unsecured loan from the Credit Union or a personal loan from their bank then it's a serious red flag about their capacity to repay. €5,000 is a significant sum to anyone and a recipe for a falling out between you both which would be convenient for your friend as they'll likely fob you off considering they've stung you previously albeit for a much smaller sum. Fool me once shame on you...

If they try to guilt trip you just say you're not in a position to give personal loans currently. If they are truly a friend then they will accept that. If you absolutely must give them the cash then I'd get a solicitor involved to prepare a loan agreement. If your friend protests about that then it's another red flag.

cannotlogin

Let's call a spade a spade here.

He wants to €5k & didn't even pay €60 back in the past.

Chances of you being repaid are very slim and every if all your documents are in order,you can't get blood out of a stone.

Banks and building societies, with all of their paperwork, legal teams etc have difficulty recovering money so of they struugle, you'll really stuggle. Furthermore they obviously don't consider him a good risk or he would have got a loan already.

There's no loan here. He's asking for 5k. Are you prepared to lose it? If not, you would be mad to give him the money.

Tork

You're going to end up falling out with this friend whether you loan them the money or not. So which would you prefer? A falling out with the money still in your bank account or one without. I know which one I'd choose.

waxmelts2000

Please do not do it, I loaned money to my " boyfriend of 4 years".. my now ex still owes me E1600 after promising he would return the full amount. 3 years on still waiting

Airyfairy12

If you're already having doubts about your friend and wondering if they will blatantly lie and say they didn't receive the money as a way of getting out of paying you back, you are absolutely mad handing over that kind of money to someone you already feel like you cant trust.
If they claim they didn't receive it, what do you plan to do? Bring them to court? contact the bank? .. sounds like youre setting yourself up for stress and drama, even if they do pay it back its going to be on your mind from the minute you give them the money.

dixiefly

I think that you can count that original 60eur as some of the best money that you ever spent as it tells you this persons attitude to paying you back.

I think you would be mad to lend it and I reckon that this person must have some type of influence over you for you to be considering it after them not paying back before and you thinking that there is even the remotest chance that they may deny receiving it.

TheW1zard

Say no

bobbyy gee

Lose the money and the friend

endacl

Adolin wrote: »

Thanks to all for the helpful points. Now that I've thought about it, I did lend them money a couple of years ago but they never paid me back. It wasn't much, around €60, but still it was never mentioned again.

Ask them for the €60 back first, as a mark of good faith.

Then don't loan them anything ever again.

amdublin

Please don't lend your friend money.

You are going to lose $5000. No two ways about it.

Why can they not go to the credit union? Oh, probably because the CU would say, no, this person is not going to pay us back.

Please don't give this money. You cannot get blood from a stone. No amount of agreements or evidence that you gave them the money is going to protect you and get that money back.

Tork

dixiefly wrote: »

I think you would be mad to lend it and I reckon that this person must have some type of influence over you for you to be considering it after them not paying back before and you thinking that there is even the remotest chance that they may deny receiving it.

OP you don't have to answer us but this is at the heart of the issue. What's the real reason you're thinking of giving this person a loan? You don't have to answer that question here but it's curious that you're even considering it despite your uneasiness.

Zebrag

If you have to think twice about loaning someone money, then you shouldn't loan anyone money.

If you've to worry about gathering proof that they have recieved loan to pay you back, then you shouldn't loan money.

If you've to make a set contract or agreement and worried or don't trust they will fully pay you back, you shouldn't loan money.

As kind, lovely and trusting as you sound OP, please do not put that pressure on yourself to loan anyone money, even if you feel you have to ask advice to order to gather proof they have recieved set funds and you want proof they can pay you back.

As much as your friend seems willing to pay you back, more often or not you will find yourself in a situation where you will either wounder if friend is going to pay you back this month (whatever payment plan you have set up), you'll be woundering why friend hasn't paid you, or (I hope this never happens!) friend all of a sudden does a disappearing act and you're down 5,000.

You do not want to be in a situation where you have to ask your friend where such and such amount is if they failed to pay. It's horrible for you to do.

If you've already transfered said funds then if you really want proof they have recieved it, you could ask them to screenshoot their bank account (which they can always say no too) or you can base it on trust and hope to jaysis they won't make a fool out of you.

But please listen to other posters and learn from this, never lend money. It causes more problems than necessary. I will help if needed but I will admit, I never lend money. Its not worth the upset. Its not worth the lost of a friendship.

Edit: OP if you've read this read and changed your mind, you've every right to ask for the money back, after all it's yours bearing in mind, this would be a clear indication of how your friend would react to this shows their commitment to your friendship and really this would show their commitment to paying it back. You shouldn't feel bad for wanting to change your mind and your friend should accept this

Oink

Be ready to lose both money and friend.

kylith

never, ever, ever lend money that you can't afford to lose, because there's a good chance that you will.

bobbyy gee

money lender


https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/should-you-borrow-from-family-or-friends

punisher5112

Done exactly this to help a so called friend out, never got it back, even went the legal route after over 4 years and it was pointless.

Just state you don't have it.

Op you are nuts even thinking about it especially after all the good advice here.

ILoveYourVibes

I think people are being a bit cynical.

punisher5112

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think people are being a bit cynical.

You the friend:-)....

I honestly don't think so, he lent €60 which if it were me and I owed someone €2 I'd go out of my way to get it back.


A friend wouldn't ask if they're a real friend to be honest.....


Even family it's a huge risk and when it comes to money it's extremely messy.

Op if you're in the position where €5k loss you can live with them fire away but I can honestly say you not getting the €60 back should be the biggest red flag and flashing lights one will ever see, I get they're most likely stuck and you feel pressured or if they're really good at playing then you nearly feel obligated to help or give away your savings....


Its like the sh1te I've had to listen to over the years oh your lucky to have a job and I'd do it for half etc etc etc..... The place is hiring and has been for years so if it's so good then why don't they go for it.....

ILoveYourVibes

punisher5112 wrote: »

You the friend:-)....

I honestly don't think so, he lent €60 which if it were me and I owed someone €2 I'd go out of my way to get it back.


...

no

if someone owed me 60 euro i would forget.:rolleyes:

Hoboo

Adolin wrote: »

Thanks to all for the helpful points. Now that I've thought about it, I did lend them money a couple of years ago but they never paid me back. It wasn't much, around €60, but still it was never mentioned again.

At the very least I'll insist that we agree to something that is indisputable should I decide to loan them the money. Then should it ever arise that they won't pay it back they can't say that they didn't get it. If there's any hesitation in what I'll demand then I'll know not to go ahead with it.

Agree to something indisputable? Without professional advice, a good solicitor nevermind a barrister would make what you think is indisputable to highly disputable while having their breakfast.

punisher5112

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

no

if someone owed me 60 euro i would forget.:rolleyes:

I am actually owed €5k I'll never see it either, went to court was as much use as getting a blank piece of paper.

Any chance you could spot me a €60 seen as you would forget.

Adolin

Well she got in touch again yesterday evening on this & I said that I couldn't give her the loan. I stated that although I have that amount & probably that again, I couldn't afford to loan it.

I pointed out that she could go to a credit union or bank but she said 'they don't do that anymore'. I said was that to do with the coronavirus & she said yes. That kind of set off a red flag for me, banks & credit unions are still loaning people money. I know you need to save for 3 months in a credit union before you can apply for a loan but I think a bank is more flexible on this?

Granted, I made a major error on this at the beginning as I suggested I would loan her the money for what she needed. At the time I was completely up to my eyes in work when she called me on it & was not focused on what I was saying (I mentioned this again yesterday evening as well that at the time I wasn't thinking clearly but she just brushed it off).

Only after the fact did I process what it was that she were asking I then realized I'd made a mistake. My mind is all over the place recently due to work (both with the huge amount of it at the moment & the fact that I likely won't be working where I am at the start of next year), the coronavirus, a kid with health problems & several other issues.

She is working at the moment though & needs it to buy a car as where she is working is too far away & for rent for where she is staying. She isn't willing to use public transport due to Covid as well due to her being in an at risk group, hence the reason why I said I would lend the money. It looks like 3K would be spent on the car with the remainder going on the rent I think. She is living with her boyfriend at the moment but he isn't working.

Is that too much for a car loan? Probably, but the older & cheaper a car is, the more money will have to be put to it for maintenance, insurance & so on.

I know I've put my foot into this in a bad way but now I'm feeling pressured to loan her the money even though she hasn't paid me back before. Plus, she has treated me badly in the past on more than one occasion (none of which had anything to do with money), which is another reason why I'm very hesitant to go forward with this.

What a ****ing mess I've put myself in.

punisher5112

Adolin wrote: »

Well she got in touch again yesterday evening on this & I said that I couldn't give her the loan. I stated that although I have that amount & probably that again, I couldn't afford to loan it.

I pointed out that she could go to a credit union or bank but she said 'they don't do that anymore'. I said was that to do with the coronavirus & she said yes. That kind of set off a red flag for me, banks & credit unions are still loaning people money. I know you need to save for 3 months in a credit union before you can apply for a loan but I think a bank is more flexible on this?

Granted, I made a major error on this at the beginning as I suggested I would loan her the money for what she needed. At the time I was completely up to my eyes in work when she called me on it & was not focused on what I was saying (I mentioned this again yesterday evening as well that at the time I wasn't thinking clearly but she just brushed it off).

Only after the fact did I process what it was that she were asking I then realized I'd made a mistake. My mind is all over the place recently due to work (both with the huge amount of it at the moment & the fact that I likely won't be working where I am at the start of next year), the coronavirus, a kid with health problems & several other issues.

She is working at the moment though & needs it to buy a car as where she is working is too far away & for rent for where she is staying. She isn't willing to use public transport due to Covid as well due to her being in an at risk group, hence the reason why I said I would lend the money. It looks like 3K would be spent on the car with the remainder going on the rent I think. She is living with her boyfriend at the moment but he isn't working.

Is that too much for a car loan? Probably, but the older & cheaper a car is, the more money will have to be put to it for maintenance, insurance & so on.

I know I've put my foot into this in a bad way but now I'm feeling pressured to loan her the money even though she hasn't paid me back before. Plus, she has treated me badly in the past on more than one occasion (none of which had anything to do with money), which is another reason why I'm very hesitant to go forward with this.

What a ****ing mess I've put myself in.

That's not a friend to be fair.


Seriously keep your money.
Let her and the boyfriend sort it out and he could easily get work, they are hiring in many places.

The guilt trip is been used, let her ask her family.
She can use transport and be careful, how can she work if she goes by that stance?

Honestly I wouldn't be giving it.

amdublin

Do NOT punish yourself over this. You are human. You are allowed say you would do something (not thinking about it and saying yes) and then actually think about it and change your mind and say no.

Especially when it comes to money.

Stick to your guns. "I am sorry, I can't give you the loan. I am sorry I said I would, I've thought about it some more and have come to the decision it is not something I can do".

Fact of the matter is if you lend this money you will not get it back.

Frankly your friend should respect your decision.

If you lose this person as a friend over this what does it tell you?

qwerty13

Why on Earth did you tell her you had 10k!! Bloody hell OP, I know you’re stressed over work, but you have to be more careful about what you say.

A list of reasons why you absolutely should not ‘loan’ her the money:
- she has treated you badly in the past
- she has a history of not paying you back
- she’s putting pressure on you and trying to guilt trip you
- she lied about the possibility of getting a credit union or bank loan
- she’s already in debt over her rent, how is she going to have any ability to pay you

She is going to have to ask her family. Or use public transport. This is not your problem to solve. You have turned yourself into an easy soft touch option for her, so I’m betting she thinks she can push you into handing over the money. To be fair to her though, you actually suggested loaning her the money in the first place.

Tell her that your job circumstances are going to change, and that you just can’t afford to loan her any money. End of conversation about it.

Riesen_Meal

Please whatever you do, do not give this supposed friend the money, or any sum, it is just going to cause issues down the line for the two of you...

Shelli2

Don't loan it. Unless you can afford to lose it, just don't.

IF you decide to go ahead with the loan you need a full agreement drawn up with a schedule of repayment signed by both of you.

Just proving they received it into their bank is not good enough. They can just as easy say you gave it to them as a gift with no mention of repayment.
Without a signed contract you haven't a hope.

waxmelts2000

People like her prey on good people like you, please take the advice given . Do not loan this money

r439z5ifwt8soq

Adolin wrote: »

What a ****ing mess I've put myself in.

Honestly I wouldn't stress over it at all, and if anything I'd be ghosting that wan.

She sounds like a typical leechy person, who are really good at taking advantage of someone. I can see it in your posts that you're feeling like you're the bad person for it and you've done nothing wrong. If anything you've been put in this situation by her

She's asking for 5 grand like jesus, any self respecting person wouldn't be doing that and making you feel bad over it.

Get away from her and any drama which would inherently go with her

Tork

Valyawl wrote: »

People like her prey on good people like you, please take the advice given . Do not loan this money

This ^^

OP, you seem to be a nice person and a good friend. But are you also a people pleaser and a bit soft? It looks like this person targeted you because she knew she could get an easy five grand out of you. The Chinese Communist party would be delighted with the number of red flags showing up here. I'm a bit shocked that you told her how much money you've saved. I've never had a conversation like that with any of my friends and don't ever want to. My finances are none of their business and vice versa. It would appear you need to learn how to stop divulging such personal information.

If your friend and her boyfriend can't afford to keep up their rent payments as things stand, what makes you think they'll manage once they've got a car to run and a loan to repay to you? She would be better off buying a load of N95 masks (the ones they use in hospitals when treating Coronavirus patients) and taking the bus. They're not cheap but when you compare the cost of those to what you'd pay for a car, it's a no-brainer.

None of this is your problem and you shouldn't be made feel guilty about it. It's up to her and her boyfriend to sort their finances out and buy their own car if they need one. I hope you stick to your guns and continue to say No.

Why are you still friends with her if she treated you badly in the past and didn't repay a previous loan? Have you no other friends?

Sephiroth_dude

Adolin wrote: »

Thanks to all for the helpful points. Now that I've thought about it, I did lend them money a couple of years ago but they never paid me back. It wasn't much, around €60, but still it was never mentioned again.

At the very least I'll insist that we agree to something that is indisputable should I decide to loan them the money. Then should it ever arise that they won't pay it back they can't say that they didn't get it. If there's any hesitation in what I'll demand then I'll know not to go ahead with it.

If they can't be arsed paying back 60 euro what makes you think they'll pay back 5000?

:EDIT:

Just read your update, she's treated you badly in the past as well ? don't give her a red cent.

Zebrag

Did your friend actually say that her boyfriend doesn't work and she needs money for a new car as she doesn't want to get transportation due to the virus and basically can't afford her rent? She asked for €5,000 and now admitted the car is €3,000 and needs the rest to pay rent? Cue eye rolling here.

That's 3 different stories she's after landing you with and has pretty much outed herself to say she wants the money to piss about with as her boyfriend can't be bothered to help her financially. That's what I gathered anyways. Not that her boyfriend has to help her majorly but given that he lives with her, I would presume that would be helpful if he did work and she wouldn't need to ask a friend for a loan, but that's neither here nor there.

No OP please don't give this friend any money. Regardless of their reasons which seems to me, ridiculous reasons.

The credit union only want you to save for 3 months (mine does anyways. I'm not sure how others work) before they can approve you of any loans (so if she can save for 3 months then she might not even need a loan) AiB can approve you in 3 hours and Bank of Ireland approve you in a day or two. Those are her options, she can look elsewhere for loans. You're not a bank or money lender.

Don't mistake your kindness for a pushover. You're not to feel guilty in the slightest. You shouldn't even have to give any reasons to why you don't want to lend. It's a yes or no and you've said no. Your friend should respect that and take her chances elsewhere. I can't get over how cheeky she sounds to be honest.

As for a friend that knows you have your own life and own worries as it is, shows where her concerns and priorities lie.

Stand your ground.

miezekatze

OP, please don't lend her the money, you will never see it again! You shouldn't feel bad because you previously agreed to it either, it's perfectly fine to change your mind, and 5k is a lot of money. Her problems are not yours to sort out and it's not like this is a life or death situation!

She could just get a car loan from the bank, it's all done online and I don't think anything changed because of Covid.. but I guess she'd actually have to pay that back!

Daragh1980

If you have two bank accounts please do the following

1. Tell her you have changed your mind and will lend her the funds
2. Transfer the 5,000 with her name as the narrative to appear on your statement but just set it up to go into your other account
3. Send her screenshot showing transfer debit.
4. Wait a few days and ask her has she got the funds yet.

Pistachio19

Her means of getting to work is not your problem.
Her rent is not your problem.
The fact her boyfriend doesn't work is not your problem.

Send one more message to this girl and say "I am not in a position to lend you any money." Do not apologise. If she responds trying to change your mind or ask for less money, just repeat "I am not in a position to lend you any money." And then ignore any further messages regarding money. It's as simple as that! If she's annoyed then so be it.

Don't engage in conversation about your finances with anyone other than your partner as it's nobody else's business.

Adolin

She is still asking for it, even after I've stated that I won't loan her the money. However now she'd be ok with getting 2K instead of 5K.

Would agreeing to using the car as collateral in the event that she can't or won't pay me be one way to ensure that I can get my money back? Or can only a company that specializes in loaning money (like a bank) do this?