Abuse

Do individuals not realise or recognise behaviors they are the recipient of in a relationship is abusive, younger people have grown up with a lot of education, access to social media, and access to information for example https://spunout.ie. There is a lot resources explaining what abuse is.

Its not about physical abuse which most people do recognise as abuse.

Man with broke phone

Are you blaming victims of abuse for not realising they are being abused?

begbysback

After Hours 10am on a Monday morning?

eviltwin

I take it you're talking about emotional abuse. Its not that easy to recognise, especially if you've grown up in a home where its the norm, it makes you more vulnerable and abusers are great at recognising that.

Abuse is insidious. Its often something that can start really small and minor and gradually builds over time. There's grown adults in relationships who can't recognise or get out of these types of relationships, how can you expect a young person to be any better at recognising it?

Kintarō Hattori

You might need to give more information OP. Your post is quite vague.

Man with broke phone

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Are you blaming victims of abuse for not realising they are being abused?

No not at all, I am wondering I suppose why they do not recognise it as abuse.

Man with broke phone

mariaalice wrote: »

No not at all, I am wondering I suppose why they do not recognise it as abuse.

Because the abuser makes them believe they deserve it.

Calahonda52

What is education other than a social construct?

IIRC some education promotes FMG

Access to SM has not helped in this area in the main

Resources about abuse come with a political/social/historical bias

I'm trying desperately to understand what you mean.

Are you asking why people don't realise they are being emotionally manipulated because they should know better because of websites like Spunout?

If that is indeed your premise, then I would suggest you haven't a clue what emotional abuse is or how it is carried out.

Kintarō Hattori

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

You might need to give more information OP. Your post is quite vague.

Young people in a relationship, giving their boyfriend or girlfriend passwords so they can check their contact and see who they contact online at some level particularly with access to all the information we have now, do they not realise this might not be what happens in a normal relationship and a groce invasion of privacy.

I know its a complex area and the role of ready available information I find interesting but somehow the person can not see it applying to themselves

Maybe information is not enough its need life expierence to reconsise what is and what is not abuse?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm trying desperately to understand what you mean.

Are you asking why people don't realise they are being emotionally manipulated because they should know better because of websites like Spunout?

If that is indeed your premise, then I would suggest you haven't a clue what emotional abuse is or how it is carried out.

Genuinely as well as sex education should young people give education about relationships about relationships which would cover things like abuse and what is abuse and what is not abuse in an intimate relationship.

hayoc

Its a hugely complex question.

Take a well rounded confident individual, lock them in a house with an abuser, and they may well recognise immediately that they are being abused.

Take someone with a background of being abused, learning survival and coping mechanisms, lock them in a house with an abuser and they will revert straight to trying to protect themselves.

But no one gets suddenly locked into an abusive relationship. Its the Frog in Boiling Water example. You throw a frog into hot water, he will jump out immediately. Put him in cold water and heat it and he will stay a lot longer than he should.

Abusers pick victims, they dont start out showing their true colours. They use abusive tactics over time, isolation, making the victim think they deserve it, they normalise it. Denial is very strong, and so is fear.

I come from an abusive background and I would run a mile from a drinker or anything related to alcoholic abuse. But I have been in abusive relationships since that I did not realise were abusive because it was a different type of abuse.

eviltwin

mariaalice wrote: »

Young people in a relationship, giving their boyfriend or girlfriend passwords so they can check their contact and see who they contact online at some level particularly with access to all the information we have now, do they not realise this might not be what happens in a normal relationship and a groce invasion of privacy.

I know its a complex area and the role of ready available information I find interesting but somehow the person can not see it applying to themselves

Maybe information is not enough its need life expierence to reconsise what is and what is not abuse?

That's not always abusive though and that's the problem. Its about context. Lots of people have access to their partners email or social media but don't misuse it. Others do. So its not the act itself that is abusive its the power and control behind it.

All you have to do is look at the personal issues page, there are lots of posts there about things that someone has experienced from their partner and they are asking if its abuse, some replies say yes and some say no. Its impossible to tell. Sometimes you end up thinking the poster is over sensitive or looking to self sabotage the relationship by seeing problems where none exist....that's how abusers are able to get away with it.

humberklog

mariaalice wrote: »

Genuinely as well as sex education should young people give education about relationships about relationships which would cover things like abuse and what is abuse and what is not abuse in an intimate relationship.

But the education is there. It's called life. People experience all sorts of behaviours in life and most learn from that. And that's good enough.

ranto_boy

Spunout.ie gets massive funding from the government, in six figure range per year. Must be big right? Well check out their Twitter page, tweets get around 2 or 3 interactions. There's no one actually engaging with it. It's a nice scam and a perfect example of the cushy bs that the Irish government throws money at.

Phoenix32

They turn everything you accuse them of around and accuse you of it. They project. They tell you you're crazy or they make you feel crazy for being upset or feeling abused in any way. They make you question your own reality and your sanity. They make you believe you are the one at fault. That's not something reading a webpage about abuse can easily undo.

That sort of thing thrives on ambiguity so there is definitely a role for a clear and unambiguous education to teenagers about what is abuse and what is not abuse in an intimate relationship.

hayoc

mariaalice wrote: »

That sort of thing thrives on ambiguity so there is definitely a role for a clear and unambiguous education to teenagers about what is abuse and what is not abuse in an intimate relationship.

What may be abusive in one relationship may not be in another. Its not black and white.

ranto_boy

ranto_boy wrote: »

Spunout.ie gets massive funding from the government, in six figure range per year. Must be big right? Well check out their Twitter page, tweets get around 2 or 3 interactions. There's no one actually engaging with it. It's a nice scam and a perfect example of the cushy bs that the Irish government throws money at.

How would you get the education across to teenagers and young people?

ranto_boy

mariaalice wrote: »

How would you get the education across to teenagers and young people?

I'm not sure what's that has to do with the price of eggs.

hayoc

mariaalice wrote: »

How would you get the education across to teenagers and young people?

Therapy - therapy for everyone, through their teenage years.

Kylta

Why does everybody need therapy in their teenage years? As there all individuals leading individual lives with all different circumstances, not everybody is emotionally abused. Life is never the same for the majority of people at any time. And I would think that if therapy was given to all teenagers they would be the first to complain about being objectified.
I think Emotional abuse in a relationship only lasts as long as the emotionally abused person is willing to put up with it.

Kylta

Kylta wrote: »

Why does everybody need therapy in their teenage years? As there all individuals leading individual lives with all different circumstances, not everybody is emotionally abused. Life is never the same for the majority of people at any time. And I would think that if therapy was given to all teenagers they would be the first to complain about being objectified.
I think Emotional abuse in a relationship only lasts as long as the emotionally abused person is willing to put up with it.

Therapy for every teen is a bit far fetched alright

hayoc

mariaalice wrote: »

Therapy for every teen is a bit far fetched alright

Why? One hour per week on the school curriculum. You asked how best to get the message across.

Therapy can benefit everyone - even those not suffering emotional abuse.

Earthhorse

I don't know about therapy but perhaps some education on warning signs of abuse would be of benefit. Yes, it's true sometimes a red flag isn't an actual red flag but knowing the red flags will allow people not feel paranoid about it when they feel something's wrong with the way they're being treated.

But it's obviously more complex than this because a lot of it is to do with the confidence to walk away from these relationships.

I wonder if abusers always recognise what they are doing as abuse too? We think of education as benefiting and empowering the abused. I wonder if it might potentially prevent some abuse happening in the first place too?

Sardonicat

eviltwin wrote: »

I take it you're talking about emotional abuse. Its not that easy to recognise, especially if you've grown up in a home where its the norm, it makes you more vulnerable and abusers are great at recognising that.

Abuse is insidious. Its often something that can start really small and minor and gradually builds over time. There's grown adults in relationships who can't recognise or get out of these types of relationships, how can you expect a young person to be any better at recognising it?

Indeed, if you've grown up in a home being the scapegoat your boundaries are already weak to non-existent and you are 100% correct in saying abusers can spot that a mile away.

Mrsmum

Abusers always make their victims carry the shame that belongs alone to the abuser. In that way they isolate them from reaching out for help.

hayoc

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder if abusers always recognise what they are doing as abuse too? We think of education as benefiting and empowering the abused. I wonder if it might potentially prevent some abuse happening in the first place too?

100% agree.

Learned behaviours are so ingrained people act without thinking. In some cases this means taking on the role of the abuser without "intending" it to be this way.

hayoc

Sardonicat wrote: »

Indeed, if you've grown up in a home being the scapegoat your boundaries are already weak to non-existent and you are 100% correct in saying abusers can spot that a mile away.

Its like magnetic attraction - or how it was explained to me - like doing a dance with someone that knows all the same moves you do.

An abusee meets an abuser and they BOTH feel comfortable and familiar in the dance moves because its how they both learned how to behave at a young age.

Mrsmum

hayoc wrote: »

100% agree.

Learned behaviours are so ingrained people act without thinking. In some cases this means taking on the role of the abuser without "intending" it to be this way.

100% disagree with this.
I think abusers intend very much everything they do.

hayoc

Mrsmum wrote: »

100% disagree with this.
I think abusers intend very much everything they do.

Depends on the type of abuse and the situation IMO.

My father HATED that he was an alcoholic. HATED that he was a man who was destroying his family. Didnt want to be that man, but the call to booze was stronger than his will. He was full of regret, hated himself, this drove him to drink even more and rain down more chaos.

He had grown up in an abusive home too.

Sardonicat

Sardonicat wrote: »

Indeed, if you've grown up in a home being the scapegoat your boundaries are already weak to non-existent and you are 100% correct in saying abusers can spot that a mile away.

That presupposes that the abuser knows they are an abuser in the first palace.

Take two young people say 18-22 starting out on an adult type relationship for the first time their framework is their family because they have not had any other life experience.

The abuser who thinks they love the other person is crushed with jealousy and also has self-esteem issues so they put their partner down to make themselves better, they project their own issue on to their partner, they may not realise it is abuse they may feel entitled to put their partner down they may think that sort of behavior is normal in relationships.

Phoenix32

Abusers grew up in an abusive environment, it's how they have learned how to interact themselves. I think to a certain extent they don't even realise their behaviour is abnormal as it is normal to them, but there is realisation on another level I think. The same with people who are abused and who stay, it's generally because they experienced abuse on some level growing up too and it's normal to them to some extent, or like Sardonicat said, they just don't have the boundaries. People repeat patterns in their lives as that is what makes sense to them. Someone who has been abused is far more likely to end up with an abuser as they subconsciously feel that is what they deserve.

eviltwin

mariaalice wrote: »

That presupposes that the abuser knows they are an abuser in the first palace.

Take two young people say 18-22 starting out on an adult type relationship for the first time their framework is their family because they have not had any other life experience.

The abuser who thinks they love the other person is crushed with jealousy and also has self-esteem issues so they put their partner down to make themselves better, they project their own issue on to their partner, they may not realise it is abuse they may feel entitled to put their partner down they may think that sort of behavior is normal in relationships.

Abusers are often vulnerable themselves, just in a different way. Most abuse is based on insecurity. Its rare you will get a sadist who actually enjoys inflicting pain on another person. Mostly its someone who has terrible fear of losing the person they are with and who thinks that being controlling is the best way to prevent that happening. Possibly they know on some level its not normal but its amazing how we can rationalise this kind of thing to ourselves.

Phoenix32

I think it's also important for people being abused to realise that an abuser is not black and white, that no one is 100% abusive 100% of the time. For someone being abused they'll think of their partner and think of the times that are good, when they are kind, when they are remorseful, when they are filled with self-hate and guilt and the abusee will feel ''oh my partner isn't some abusive monster that people describe, they are a lot more complex than that'', and then question whether they are being abused at all. These things aren't black and white and that's why it's not so easy as looking at a checklist online.

Phoenix32

Phoenix32 wrote: »

I think it's also important for people being abused to realise that an abuser is not black and white, that no one is 100% abusive 100% of the time. For someone being abused they'll think of their partner and think of the times that are good, when they are kind, when they are remorseful, when they are filled with self-hate and guilt and the abusee will feel ''oh my partner isn't some abusive monster that people describe, they are a lot more complex than that'', and then question whether they are being abused at all. These things aren't black and white and that's why it's not so easy as looking at a checklist online.

But a checklist is a start to the realisation that they are being abused or that they are the abuser and also its a pointer on how to get help.

Even well adjusted people are vulnerable. I actually accepted responsibility for my first boyfriend cheating, I was gaslighted into believing that he was all but forced to because I was so busy and hadn't enough time for him and that made him feel unloved etc etc. I was the one who felt guilty, and I've never seen myself as a soft touch or particularly gullible.

I think he believed his excuses, I'm not sure he was ever held responsible for any bad behaviour as a child himself. His parents always found a way to excuse him, according to his sister (who was cast as the scapegoat). Families are complex, even the apparently good ones can damage people, and damaged people damage other people without knowing. The first step is recognising red flags, easier said than done when you've no prior experience of them.

eviltwin

mariaalice wrote: »

But a checklist is a start to the realisation that they are being abused or that they are the abuser and also its a pointer on how to get help.

Even that isn't fool proof. You mentioned having access to each others social media in an earlier post. Now that can be a sign of abuse but isn't always. It always comes back to context and intent. Having a checklist is very black and white, it doesn't recognise the nuance in relationships.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Even that isn't fool proof. You mentioned having access to each others social media in an earlier post. Now that can be a sign of abuse but isn't always. It always comes back to context and intent. Having a checklist is very black and white, it doesn't recognise the nuance in relationships.

I'd say demanding access as a way of demonstrating trust, or wanting access to email, social media and phone passwords as a matter of course is a red flag.

Obviously having someones phone lock is common enough, but the expectation that there's something up if you refuse to give it is a bad sign. Loads of grey areas around that sort of thing, too many for it to be unqualified as a sign of abuse.

corner of hells

mariaalice wrote: »

Do individuals not realise or recognise behaviors they are the recipient of in a relationship is abusive, younger people have grown up with a lot of education, access to social media, and access to information for example https://spunout.ie. There is a lot resources explaining what abuse is.

Its not about physical abuse which most people do recognise as abuse.

Have a look at the "boiling frog" theory or syndrome in relation to abuse and neglect.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

Genuinely as well as sex education should young people give education about relationships about relationships which would cover things like abuse and what is abuse and what is not abuse in an intimate relationship.

No. Absolutely not. Abuse isn't a definitive thing that can be taught. One person's abuse is another's relationship. Its very much dependent on the personality and emotional fragility of both parties.

What are you thinking? Relationships should have a set of rules and if you break them, then it's abuse? Bizarre.

hayoc

hayoc wrote: »

Why? One hour per week on the school curriculum. You asked how best to get the message across.

Therapy can benefit everyone - even those not suffering emotional abuse.

A massage can also benefit people. Let's do that too.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

But a checklist is a start to the realisation that they are being abused or that they are the abuser and also its a pointer on how to get help.

A checklist is also a way of affirming something that isn't true, much like googling symptoms of an illness.

Sardonicat

hayoc wrote: »

Its like magnetic attraction - or how it was explained to me - like doing a dance with someone that knows all the same moves you do.

An abusee meets an abuser and they BOTH feel comfortable and familiar in the dance moves because its how they both learned how to behave at a young age.

Not necessarily. Not all abusers learned to abuse at a young age. They are just deeply manipulative people and abuse different people in different ways. If you've come out of an abusive household your boundaries are very weak and you won't even notice being taken advantage of in a 'fruendship' for example. Some people see kindness, gentleness, generosity etc in others as weaknesses to br taken advantage of. If someone with those traits has been brought up having no idea they have a right to personal boundaries they will find themselves in abusive friendships, romantic relatiobships and the victims of workplace bullying. If people keep telling you that you're too nice for your own good you'd better start listening.

hayoc

Sardonicat wrote: »

Not necessarily. Not all abusers learned to abuse at a young age. They are just deeply manipulative people and abuse different people in different ways. If you've come out of an abusive household your boundaries are very weak and you won't even notice being taken advantage of in a 'fruendship' for example. Some people see kindness, gentleness, generosity etc in others as weaknesses to br taken advantage of. If someone with those traits has been brought up having no idea they have a right to personal boundaries they will find themselves in abusive friendships, romantic relatiobships and the victims of workplace bullying. If people keep telling you that you're too nice for your own good you'd better start listening.

This is also true. Some abusers were abused, others werent.

Some abusees go on to never be abused again.

There are many variables.

JustAThought

Coercive control is one of the most dangerous and invisible forms of abuse. Yet our criminal justice system has only caught up this in the oast few years. Still a partner can batter another to a pulp while a witness watches and calls the police and yet the gaurds STILL can NOT be able to prosecute unless the victim agrees. In other forward looking first world countries it is the police force that decides to prosecute regardless of whether they have the victims permission.

I know or have known several educTed, articulate, brilliant people who have been beaten into hospital by their charming, educated, professional partners Lets get things straight - the abuser is NOT the victim. They may be damaged, but this does not give them the right to destroy another human beings life.
Lets stop excusing it and casually making excuses like it dosn’t matter and the cictims don’t count.

Cruel, manipulative, moneygrabbing, violent people who destroy others lives for their selfish gain, power and ego ARE monsters and should also be treated as such. Not soft stroked and made excuses for.

Laughing with Me

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Are you blaming victims of abuse for not realising they are being abused?

He's just asking.

ILoveYourVibes

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Because the abuser makes them believe they deserve it.

Not always.

The victim can have grown up thinking this is the way you talk to people or treat them. The odd slap etc is ok.

The way your father talks about women etc or to your mother in front of you is your template for normality.

ShatterAlan

mariaalice wrote: »

Do individuals not realise or recognise behaviors they are the recipient of in a relationship is abusive, younger people have grown up with a lot of education, access to social media, and access to information for example https://spunout.ie. There is a lot resources explaining what abuse is.

Its not about physical abuse which most people do recognise as abuse.

What are you talking about?


What is your point?

Airyfairy12

When you grow up in an abusive home you dont develop a healthy self esteem or an internal locus of evaluation, abuse is normalized, particularly covert abuse which are subtle but very damaging over time, things like enmeshment and the blurring of healthy boundaries in relationships with parents or siblings. Adults that had enmeshed family relationships don't understand healthy boundaries, when they enter into relationships later in life, either platonic or romantic they can engage in behaviours such as sharing each others passwords or controlling one another.

Covert narcissism where a parent or older sibling uses emotional manipulation, guilt trips, tantrums, lying for attention, scapegoating the child and unmining the child's self esteem over years. With a covert narcissist the childs worth is placed in what they can do for the parent, the parent will make inappropriate or unattainable demands of the child and when the child cant meet these demands theyre punished. The parent will disregard the childs emotional needs and well being as they view their own needs more important than the childs
Punishment can include prolonged silent treatment where the parent wont speak to the child, the child has to win back the parents love and approval, the parent might make up lies about the child to other family members, childs teachers, friends or the childs friends parents, they might say things like the child is very badly behaved or the child is difficult at home. They might punish the child through calling them names and putting them down. The child never knows where they stand with the parent and they dont know what the parent wants them to be, In situations like this the child is constantly trying to please the parent and 'win' their love. From the outside the family may look normal as the child is not physically neglected.
Theres lots of other types of covert emotional abuse which contribute to the liklines of ending up in abusive romantic and platonic relationships.


Allot of information regarding abusive relationships is geared towards the victim and the signs listed are often the extreme like violence and obvious control. They also massively demonise the abusers, now im not defending abusers but I genuinely think allot of emotionally abusive people don't fully understand that theyre abusive. They likely come from abusive, enmeshed or unhealthy backgrounds and often dont know how to have relationships as they have no awareness of their own behaviours coupled with low self esteem from the abuse - Thats not to defend their behaviour or belittle victims, there are always people who are well aware of what theyre doing but id be inclined to think, similarly to some victims, they can have a lack of understanding of what a healthy relationship looks like.