Proposed new motor tax regime and VRT changes for 2021

hoodie6029

Spotted this the other day. Looks like the civil servants have started the Budget 2021 leaks already.
Motor tax per car is down and continues to fall due to the 2008 change. So a new way of taxing cars is required.
Looks like they want to base it on the new WLTP system, no mention of how it will be priced, based on CO2 or a mixture of CO2 and NOX, who knows? It won't be as cheap as the current system anyway.
More VRT bands and the scrapping of 0% rate for electric cars. I can see the Greens fighting that. Bringing more cars and new cars into the NOX charge too.
A scrappage scheme ruled out though.
And diesel to go up every year.

What a time to be any kind of motorist...

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/diesel-price-hike-and-motor-tax-overhaul-proposed-for-budget-2021-1017909.html

colm_mcm

Just on that, they’re suggesting a move to tax based on WLTP emissions. Does this data actually exist for cars back as far as 2008?
May be just a change for new cars.

It was obvious by 2009 that they had gotten the Co2 bands completely wrong and had totally underestimated what the manufacturers were capable of.

ba_barabus

hoodie6029 wrote: »

More VRT bands and the scrapping of 0% rate for electric cars. I can see the Greens fighting that.

Nah, they'd love the thoughts of us all being forced on Public transport, even where it doesn't exist.

_Kaiser_

colm_mcm wrote: »

Just on that, they’re suggesting a move to tax based on WLTP emissions. Does this data actually exist for cars back as far as 2008?
May be just a change for new cars.

It was obvious by 2009 that they had gotten the Co2 bands completely wrong and had totally underestimated what the manufacturers were capable of.

My read is that the existing 2 tax structures remain for cars within that range, but any new registrations would be on the WLTP rates?

Its preferred reform would be that separate tax regimes would apply depending on when a vehicle was first registered. Therefore, cars registered pre-July 2008 will still be taxed on engine size, while cars registered up to December 31st this year will be taxed on the outgoing NEDC testing system.

Wildly Boaring

Surely the Greens learned after their last disaster

It's the only thing people remember their last stint in government for. Need to be seen to achieve this time rather than just throwing about new taxes.

_Kaiser_

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Surely the Greens learned after their last disaster

It's the only thing people remember their last stint in government for. Need to be seen to achieve this time rather than just throwing about new taxes.

They haven't learned a thing. The "Greens" here are all about unworkable/impractical notions that are ultimately just new ways to tax people who have no choice in the matter as it is.

coylemj

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

They haven't learned a thing. The "Greens" here are all about unworkable/impractical notions that are ultimately just new ways to tax people who have no choice in the matter as it is.

+1 Eamon Ryan is an 'old Green', a true well-meaning ecologist but the rest of the 'new Greens' are a bunch of Trotskyites masquerading as ecologists.

When they talk about 'climate justice', what they really mean is that people who can afford to drive cars should be taxed off the road and the money given to the less well-off. Just don't ask them how they're going to manage without all the tax currently collected from VRT, annual road tax, excise on fuel and VAT. Because they don't have an answer.

And if your nan or elderly mother drives to the golf club once or twice a week to play bridge or golf with her mates, the Greens will tell her that she'll have to cycle there instead.

Atlantic Dawn

Changing tax rates on cars already registered on our roads is a poor way to treat drivers who bought based on the rates at the times, I guess there's nothing new in that.

hoodie6029

Who knows how it will work out? The new system, if it comes in, could be so punitive that paying €700 odd to tax a 2007 1.9TDI might seem like a bargain :pac:

galwaytt

hoodie6029 wrote: »

Who knows how it will work out? The new system, if it comes in, could be so punitive that paying €700 odd to tax a 2007 1.9TDI might seem like a bargain :pac:

better snap up all those PumpDuse A4's no one wants............

Miscreant

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Changing tax rates on cars already registered on our roads is a poor way to treat drivers who bought based on the rates at the times, I guess there's nothing new in that.

This won't happen.
If they go ahead with the plan, it will affect new registrations from a certain date. Just like the CO2 system wasn't retrospectively applied to pre-2008 vehicles.

treatyman

Does anyone know what change in VRT will occur in Jan? I have a 09 Yaris I need to pay VRT on, looks like it will cost 505 euro now but I can't get an appointment until Jan 6th. It's 1.33 automatic, 117co2.

colm_mcm

It will almost certainly be higher than that in the new year. Not a huge amount more though so don’t panic.

bazz26

treatyman wrote: »

Does anyone know what change in VRT will occur in Jan? I have a 09 Yaris I need to pay VRT on, looks like it will cost 505 euro now but I can't get an appointment until Jan 6th. It's 1.33 automatic, 117co2.

https://www.vrt.ie/faq/budget-2021-vehicle-registration-tax/

treatyman

Thanks @bazz26, @colm_mcm, I think from what I can tell it will go from €538 if I were to pay VRT now to €595 in Jan, not too bad.

S.E.A.L.s

treatyman wrote: »

Thanks @bazz26, @colm_mcm, I think from what I can tell it will go from €538 if I were to pay VRT now to €595 in Jan, not too bad.

If the Revenue had their way, you'd be missing a 1 in there at least

And I only got a car on the post-2008 bracket a few months ago, had my 2007 2.0 diesel for almost 6 years beforehand, so, not happy reading about these potential hikes :rolleyes:

Also, after what happened last time with road tax and then NOX added to VRT (this actually held me up changing cars) where does it end and remember the "VRT will be abolished" talk...

So, overall I've no optimist the government will be balanced or fair here

colm_mcm

S.E.A.L.s wrote: »

remember the "VRT will be abolished" talk...

There’s a lot of nonsense talked.

Builder Ben

Hi all, just looking for opinions here - I brought in a 2014 car in December but couldn’t get a vrt appointment until January 2021 which means it is under the new WLTP rules. This puts €1400 onto the vrt. I am going to appeal but am unsure of how to proceed - as far as I can see I have 3 options:
1. Appeal based in fact that I couldn’t get an appointment in December. I shouldn’t be penalised because I can’t be furnished with an inspection in a reasonable time frame
2. I accept the uplift in vrt % and argue on basis on OMSP to get a few quid off.
3. A combination of both.

Really unsure what to do here but absolutely livid with myself for not researching more thorough before I bought the car 🀦*♂️
Any opinions more than welcome.

Montage of Feck

How about something like the kei car tax band in japan where lightweight small displacement cars get cheap tax. Maybe combine with a punitive SUV tax.

colm_mcm

We basically had that up til 2008.

beggars_bush

Abolish road tax.
Put motor tax onto fuel
With a rebate for businesses

Wildly Boaring

beggars_bush wrote: »

Abolish road tax.
Put motor tax onto fuel
With a rebate for businesses

Fuel like electricity?
Be very short sighted to do otherwise today.

That'd really piss off owners of houses who invested big money to get A rated and then get their petrol / diesel loaded too

S.E.A.L.s

beggars_bush wrote: »

Abolish road tax.
Put motor tax onto fuel
With a rebate for businesses

There are countries with this fuel system and motor insurance baked in from the state, why not road tax, at least then the tax on fuel would be worth something to road users

turbocab

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Sigh this again. No

because it moight be a fairer way of doing it

turbocab

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Look up the history. They tried it before and guess what Motor tax came back. So we got stuffed twice. Want to get hit a 3rd time?

its still the fairest way of doing it ,and the greenest the more you drive the more you pay no brainer.

turbocab

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You didnt answer my question. Whats to stop them reversing it and adding motor tax back again? Also the current system is already doing what you say. A person doing twice the mileage pays twice as much tax.

you already know the answe rto that ,they can do what they like and will

turbocab

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Grand so your point of "fairest way of doing it" has no merit.

So whats the point of this thread so.

mgbgt1978

turbocab wrote: »

because it moight be a fairer way of doing it

It won't.
It would be drawn up by an Irish Government (any political parties.... makes no difference) who would be guaranteed to feck it up.
Then they would have to create a new quango to run the system. They would have to be self-financing, and that would just add even more cost on to fuel prices.

I porpose 10% of the new cost of the car, reduced by 10% of the initial tax each year until 10 years old and tax free after

saabsaab

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Its the bi monthly motor tax thread thats what it is

Not really surprising. Its a daft system(s) much better and easier to transfer to fossil fuels.

turbocab

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Its the bi monthly motor tax thread thats what it is

yeah and your happy with the status quo, so pointless is what it is

saabsaab

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Look up the history. They tried it before and guess what Motor tax came back. So we got stuffed twice. Want to get hit a 3rd time?

You need to check the history. It wasn't tried before. What was tried was abolish some road tax on smaller cars and a small increase on the gallon of fuel (unrelated to the motor tax amount lost). Of course they could reverse it but not likely if a simple system gives as much or more overall.

User1998

Here we go again

bazz26

Yep, with another lockdown the busy bodies have even more time on their hands.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Builder Ben wrote: »

Hi all, just looking for opinions here - I brought in a 2014 car in December but couldn’t get a vrt appointment until January 2021 which means it is under the new WLTP rules. This puts €1400 onto the vrt. I am going to appeal but am unsure of how to proceed - as far as I can see I have 3 options:
1. Appeal based in fact that I couldn’t get an appointment in December. I shouldn’t be penalised because I can’t be furnished with an inspection in a reasonable time frame
2. I accept the uplift in vrt % and argue on basis on OMSP to get a few quid off.
3. A combination of both.

Really unsure what to do here but absolutely livid with myself for not researching more thorough before I bought the car 🀦*♂️
Any opinions more than welcome.

First of all it looks like a mod merged a thread which is not relevant to this one or people are smoking a lot more weed these days and answering questions that weren’t asked.

Did you actually go online and enter your vehicle details in December? If you did then I think your VRT assessment will be based on December rates. Not being able to get an appointment wasn’t your fault however if you didn’t actually book or try to book an appointment then yes you are lumbered in the new system and appealing it stating that you couldn’t get an appointment will be fruitless.

mickdw

Deleted User wrote: »

I porpose 10% of the new cost of the car, reduced by 10% of the initial tax each year until 10 years old and tax free after

So on a 30k car you propose 16500 motor tax payable over the first 10 years.
No thanks.

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

So on a 30k car you propose 16500 motor tax payable over the first 10 years.
No thanks.

Sounded better in my head.

boetstark

1809 euro Road tax each year on a 2009 porsche boxster is criminal. Why don't they just tell me I can't have one. There is no incentive to better oneself and enjoy the nicer things in life.

S.E.A.L.s

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Did you actually go online and enter your vehicle details in December? If you did then I think your VRT assessment will be based on December rates. Not being able to get an appointment wasn’t your fault however if you didn’t actually book or try to book an appointment then yes you are lumbered in the new system and appealing it stating that you couldn’t get an appointment will be fruitless.

Think the point you're making is that people should have saved their statistical codes/results from the VRT calculator :pac:

S.E.A.L.s

boetstark wrote: »

1809 euro Road tax each year on a 2009 porsche boxster is criminal. Why don't they just tell me I can't have one. There is no incentive to better oneself and enjoy the nicer things in life.

Revenue like to encourage our delusions of grandeur and just stop being poor is the solution

Also, if you're determined to be a hairdresser the Mazda MX-5 is much more cost effective

boetstark

S.E.A.L.s wrote: »

Revenue like to encourage our delusions of grandeur and just stop being poor is the solution

Also, if you're determined to be a hairdresser the Mazda MX-5 is much more cost effective

Not sure what your point is or if you are trying to be funny

saabsaab

bazz26 wrote: »

Yep, with another lockdown the busy bodies have even more time on their hands.

Or you just don't like people with ideas different to your own.

bazz26

saabsaab wrote: »

Or you just don't like people with ideas different to your own.

I have no problem with other ideas when they actually might benefit the majority but your idea only benefits those like yourself who probably do feck all mileage or have a second car as a hobby. Your suggestion is not going to happen anytime soon because they will probably put more tax on fuel as well as motor tax for years to come in order to pay for this pandemic whenever it decides it's done with us.

saabsaab

bazz26 wrote: »

I have no problem with other ideas when they actually might benefit the majority but your idea only benefits those like yourself who probably do feck all mileage or have a second car as a hobby. Your suggestion is not going to happen anytime soon because they will probably put more tax on fuel as well as motor tax for years to come in order to pay for this pandemic whenever it decides it's done with us.

It would benefit most people in the long run but you just want to stay with the status quo. ICE is on the way out anyway.

Leonard Hofstadter

saabsaab wrote: »

ICE is on the way out anyway.

Not necessarily. Who knows where the work being done by Porsche, Mazda and other manufacturers on synthetic fuels will lead us. Or hydrogen might take off. BMW are doing a lot of research into fuel cells along with Toyota, and other manufacturers are interested, too.

Even if hydrogen or synthetic fuels amount to nothing and EV really is the solution (we'll just pretend that the 10 extra tonnes of CO2 produced per vehicle in the manufacturing process over an ICE equivalent isn't pollution at all), no country in the world is proposing to ban ICE before 2035 (the only country that has actually done it is the UK - it is illegal under EU law to have any sort of ban on petrol or diesel, and you will still be allowed buy a new petrol or diesel until 2035 because it's only pure petrol/diesel new cars that are being banned from 2030), and as cars typically last 15-20 years ICE is realistically going to be around until at least 2050, so there is still plenty of time to enjoy all the charm and character the best examples of cars with internal combustion engines have. If they can make synthetic fuels work, then ICE will be around for many more years to come - because no government in the world has said they will ban internal combustion engines, what they have said is they will ban new petrol and diesel cars from being sold. A subtle, but important, difference.

I would also point out that F1 is switching to carbon neutral biofuels from next year - so that means F1 can use combustion engines forever now. Fingers crossed it will mean the revival of the naturally aspirated engines from the glory days of the sport - the modern turbo units are so boring compared to the V10s and V12s we were treated to in the 90s and early 00s. Even going back to the V8s we had until 2013 would be a vast improvement on what we have now. Anyway, that means there is still a reason to develop combustion engines as of course an enormous part of the appeal of the F1 is the theatre from the cars.

One thing is certain: whatever fuel, or fuels, end up powering our cars in the decades to come - motoring will not get one bit cheaper. They'll do road pricing, or increase car tax/VRT, or make fast charging quite expensive, that shortfall has to be replaced somehow.

galwaytt

Builder Ben wrote: »

Hi all, just looking for opinions here - I brought in a 2014 car in December but couldn’t get a vrt appointment until January 2021 which means it is under the new WLTP rules. This puts €1400 onto the vrt. I am going to appeal but am unsure of how to proceed - as far as I can see I have 3 options:
1. Appeal based in fact that I couldn’t get an appointment in December. I shouldn’t be penalised because I can’t be furnished with an inspection in a reasonable time frame
2. I accept the uplift in vrt % and argue on basis on OMSP to get a few quid off.
3. A combination of both.

Really unsure what to do here but absolutely livid with myself for not researching more thorough before I bought the car 🀦*♂️
Any opinions more than welcome.

Different people are getting different answers to that, even from Revenue itself.

I got an email from Revenue telling me that any car inspected post Jan 1st will be on the new system & new rates, even if in the country prior to December 31st.

andekwarhola

ba_barabus wrote: »

Nah, they'd love the thoughts of us all being forced on Public transport, even where it doesn't exist.

They think everybody cycles to work from Dublin 6 or Dublin 4, like they do.

galwaytt

saabsaab wrote: »

It would benefit most people in the long run but you just want to stay with the status quo. ICE is on the way out anyway.

No it isn't.

Quite apart from synthetic or biofuels being one path, from an engineering perspective the likes of Koenigsegg Free Valve technology will extend it's viability much further.

galwaytt

Doubling down on VAT it seems.

Irish Examiner: Importing used cars has become far more complicated and expensive.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40201356.html

Larbre34

Overall the Pound is forecast to decline and no doubt the British economy will be in something of a toilet for a while, so a car bought in the UK for a very good deal could still be worth privately importing, even with duties and VAT added. After all, second hand stock of Irish cars is going to be scarce for a while based on very depressed new sales last year.

I'd still rather pay a bit of a premium for a UK spec car anyway.

Northern Monkey

Am I right that the duties and VAT aren’t applicable to second hand cars bought in Northern Ireland?