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EU Democratic Deficit

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Fair enough if you didnt mean anything nefarious. I just punched as too many claim that Brexit was foisted on the UK by a cabal of old rich men. Remain had a similar budget a little smaller but similar and if anything the old rich men supported Remain. Brexit was primarily a working class rebellion.

    The vast majority of Labour voters voted for Remain. The vast majority of Conservatives ones voted for Leave.

    Unless you are trying to suggest that the Conservatives are the party of the working class, and Labour isn’t, Brexit clearly wasn’t “primarily a working class rebellion“.

    And there’s no way that Brexiters would have had a larger budget than Remain, if, instead of being backed by “a canal of rich old men”, they were relying on working class people passing the hat round in impromptu collections.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,473 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    View wrote: »
    The vast majority of Labour voters voted for Remain. The vast majority of Conservatives ones voted for Leave.

    Unless you are trying to suggest that the Conservatives are the party of the working class, and Labour isn’t, Brexit clearly wasn’t “primarily a working class rebellion“.

    And there’s no way that Brexiters would have had a larger budget than Remain, if, instead of being backed by “a canal of rich old men”, they were relying on working class people passing the hat round in impromptu collections.
    Yes because propositions in debates can be more highly motivated. Also I said primarily working class. Not entirely.

    Not all conservative supporters are middle class despite the Tory brass being against it. They won over the older poorer Tory wing and they got over a 1/3 Labour and all of UKIP who are disportionately working class.
    Hermy wrote: »
    Brexit was foisted upon a naive electorate by a rich cabal who lied through their teeth about the benefits of leaving the EU.

    Remain was supported by a far larger rich cabal but they overestimated their support.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Fair enough if you didnt mean anything nefarious. I just punched as too many claim that Brexit was foisted on the UK by a cabal of old rich men. Remain had a similar budget a little smaller but similar and if anything the old rich men supported Remain. Brexit was primarily a working class rebellion.

    Firstly can explain how if they had the same funding where the 435000 illegally funneled to the DUP came from as a way to avoid the campaign limits?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dup-s-brexit-ads-who-bankrolled-the-secretive-435-000-campaign-1.4320055
    Remain was supported by a far larger rich cabal but they overestimated their support.

    Secondly id love to see your evidence to back this up please and please no Soros conspiracy theories as we are all expecting.

    Thirdly this is all wildly off topic stop derailing into other topics to avoid the topic of the thread because you cant back up your ridiculous statements when questioned. Take it to the Brexit thread.

    Also finally can you please answer my original question that you keep avoiding regarding your quote here?
    The majority of Irish alive today never had a chance to to vote on whether we should be in the EU. That is undemocratic. I am pro EU but let's be honest here.


    How and when should we be rerunning all the other referendum that have passed during the lifetime of our country? The current count is 33, the list is here if youd like a look

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amendm...nd_referendums

    Lets start at the beginning, should we rerun the very first referendum from 1937 to adopt or scrap our constitution? Since you had to be 18 at the time virtually nobody alive had a choice to vote for it unless they are 99 years old or older therefore under your definition our adoption of Bunreacht na hÉireann is undemocratic.

    If you can't answer it you can just admit your original statement was childishly ignorant.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,127 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Remain was supported by a far larger rich cabal but they overestimated their support.

    Remain may well have had wealthy supporters but they weren't lying about the benefits of remaining.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Yes because propositions in debates can be more highly motivated. Also I said primarily working class. Not entirely.

    Not all conservative supporters are middle class despite the Tory brass being against it. They won over the older poorer Tory wing and they got over a 1/3 Labour and all of UKIP who are disportionately working class.

    While the Conservatives do indeed attract a sizeable working class vote, they primarily appeal to the better off within British society. There is no way they’d pitch themselves as the party of the working class.

    You also are overestimating the number of Labour supporters who supported Leave, and as the overwhelming majority of Labour supporters backed Remain, it clearly wasn’t a case of the working class revolting.
    Remain was supported by a far larger rich cabal but they overestimated their support.

    No, Remain adhered to the law and kept their spending within the limits set down in law. Leave, though, deliberately broke those laws and illegally overspent the limits.

    And Leave did not manage to outspend the legal limits by relying on whip rounds - they were funded by a cabal of rich, old men, otherwise they’d never have close to reaching the legal spending limits, much less outspending them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,525 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Fair enough if you didnt mean anything nefarious. I just punched as too many claim that Brexit was foisted on the UK by a cabal of old rich men. Remain had a similar budget a little smaller but similar and if anything the old rich men supported Remain. Brexit was primarily a working class rebellion.

    I meant it in the sense it was really a small group (incl. the wealthy backers) that were very obsessed with the EU for a long time. IMO things aligned fortuitously for them politically, and they got the vote held that they wanted (EU membership referendum).
    I'd be sure most businesses and wealthy interests in the UK wanted Remain to win.

    As others have mentioned how the Leave campaigns conducted the referendum has big question marks over it (esp. their funding).
    However, at the end of the day a hell of a lot of people in the UK voted for Brexit, then voted a shower of loonies into the EU parliament and voted again for the Conservative party led entirely by the Brexiters & running on a "Get Brexit Done" platform, so can't really say it has been foisted on the UK by a cabal.

    All very much a tangent, but I think the example shows in a democracy there can be a lot of factors involved in what issues may be put directly to the public in a plebiscite. The fact we don't get the chance to vote often on the very big stuff (like EU membership) isn't IMO necessarily undemocratic. I think having citizens voting on such things on a fairly regular basis, without planning it carefully and when there is no massive pent up demand for it is a recipe for chaos.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    I meant it in the sense it was really a small group (incl. the wealthy backers) that were very obsessed with the EU for a long time. .

    That’s where the ambiguity comes in though.

    People before profit, the communist party and even Eirigi supported leave.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,525 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Aegir wrote: »
    That’s where the ambiguity comes in though.

    People before profit, the communist party and even Eirigi supported leave.

    Bit of a rag bag there, with PBP [is that NI branch of the crowd here or something else?] being only semi-rational ones.
    If what you claim re their positions during UKs EU referendum is true (I don't know), is it telling us something about the sanity of the UK leaving the EU? (:pac:)


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    Bit of a rag bag there, with PBP [is that NI branch of the crowd here or something else?] being only semi-rational ones.
    If that what you claim re their positions during UKs EU referendum is true (I don't know), is it telling us something about the sanity of the UK leaving the EU? (:pac:)

    it shows that people from opposite sides of the spectrum have issues with the EU, for various reasons. Eaise to blame it on a rich cabal though I guess.

    https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/
    https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave
    https://peoplesworld.org/article/britains-communist-party-blames-labours-stop-brexit-stance-for-election-defeat/
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/tory-brexit-not-the-same-as-our-lexit-boyd-barrett-says-1.3871508


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,525 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Aegir wrote: »

    Some good examples of idea of "Brexit" being all things to all men.
    SF have also been eurosceptics and opposed every referendum on the EU held here I think. They've gone quiet on that now though.

    edit: Irish Times article is a bit of shocker. Didn't know PBP in Ireland actually supported a UK Leave vote at that time.
    They are more dangerous than I thought!


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    Some good examples of idea of "Brexit" being all things to all men.
    SF have also been eurosceptics and opposed every referendum on the EU held here I think. They've gone quiet on that now though.

    edit: Irish Times article is a bit of shocker. Didn't know PBP in Ireland actually supported a UK Leave vote at that time.
    They are more dangerous than I thought!

    just on Sinn Fein https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/02/01/sinn-fein-failed-to-register-for-the-brexit-referendum-ie-it-took-no-part-in-preventing-brexit/


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,125 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark


    Aegir wrote: »
    That’s where the ambiguity comes in though.

    People before profit, the communist party and even Eirigi supported leave.

    The so-called "Lexiteers" were the biggest fools of all over Brexit.

    As if the UK once "set free from Brussels" :rolleyes: would suddenly turn into a workers' paradise? The UK which opted out of the EU Social Charter, and IIRC substantially watered down the working time directive? All in the interests of workers, of course...

    It's now got the most right-wing government since the Peterloo Massacre, and is heading rapidly towards a crash-out no deal Brexit which will destroy millions of jobs.

    Well done lads.

    Defund Alcohol Action Ireland



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 88,444 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The majority of Irish alive today never had a chance to to vote on whether we should be in the EU. That is undemocratic. I am pro EU but let's be honest here.
    The 1918 election was a proxy for independence.


    Likewise we had a proxy on EU membership last year during the European elections.

    The anti-EU Irish Freedom Party got 2,441 first preference votes out of an electorate of 884,118 in Dublin. They did a bit better in South. 10,582 out of an electorate of 1,417,017


  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭millb


    Hermy wrote: »
    Brexit was foisted upon a naive electorate by a rich cabal who lied through their teeth about the benefits of leaving the EU.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54225572

    FinCEN Files banking details (Panorama investigation) pointing to more Ru$$ian money ($7M) moving to Tory fundraising


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