Child rights to female changing?

JoannaJag

Does my daughter have a legal right to a single sex changing room for swimming? I know people can self-ID from age 16 and go wherever they want.

Under the age of 16, if a school allows a male child who says they are a girl to start using a communal changing room for girls, (no cubicles) are they breaking any law? Citizens Advice told me they can’t help. Theoretically, is it possible the school is discriminating on gender/religious grounds?

Sonrisa

JoannaJag wrote: »

Does my daughter have a legal right to a single sex changing room for swimming? I know people can self-ID from age 16 and go wherever they want.

Under the age of 16, if a school allows a male child who says they are a girl to start using a communal changing room for girls, (no cubicles) are they breaking any law? Citizens Advice told me they can’t help. Theoretically, is it possible the school is discriminating on gender/religious grounds?

There is no legal right to a single sex changing room. A business can organise their changing facilities as they wish e.g letting small children change with their opposite sex parent.

Theoretically, you complain to the school, business, or your daughter chooses not to go swimming.

Dravokivich

Have you actually got a complaint to make, or just looking for someone else to construct a "hypothetical" argument for you?

JoannaJag

It is not hypothetical. My daughter is uncomfortable changing in the same communal area as a male bodied person (as are we as her parents). This is a public school, not a business.

I wondered if there was any legal reason for a complaint about the arrangement. Is there a case for discrimination on the basis of gender under section 42 of the human rights act where the school is a service and children are the service users?

I put an objection in writing and did not receive a response beyond an acknowledgment. I’d like to know where we stand legally before pursuing my complaint.

Zookey123

JoannaJag wrote: »

Does my daughter have a legal right to a single sex changing room for swimming? I know people can self-ID from age 16 and go wherever they want.

Under the age of 16, if a school allows a male child who says they are a girl to start using a communal changing room for girls, (no cubicles) are they breaking any law? Citizens Advice told me they can’t help. Theoretically, is it possible the school is discriminating on gender/religious grounds?

How would the private facility that provides the changing rooms for swimming be discriminating on your daughters gender or religion? Is there even a male to female transgender in her school or is this just hypothetical?

GreeBo

Zookey123 wrote: »

How would the private facility that provides the changing rooms for swimming be discriminating on your daughters gender or religion? Is there even a male to female transgender in her school or is this just hypothetical?

It seems like the OP thinks there is positive discrimination towards the trans individual?

JoannaJag

It’s not the private facility but the school who have not made a female changing room available. I was hoping she would have some gender based rights to not have to strip naked in front of a male bodied person in order to participate in a school activity (during school hours).

Yes there is a trans girl in the school.

endacl

If they’re male (bodied?), they should be changing in the “male-bodied” changing room.

Somebody’s going to be uncomfortable either way. This way there’s only one, as opposed to all the girls.

Minimise the discomfort.

JoannaJag

The school has been very accommodating and supportive to the trans child and has made these arrangements in order not to discriminate but my own daughter is experiencing discrimation as a result as there is no single sex area to access the in school activity.

endacl

JoannaJag wrote: »

The school has been very accommodating and supportive to the trans child and has made these arrangements in order not to discriminate but my own daughter is experiencing discrimation as a result as there is no single sex area to access the in school activity.

I’d imagine your daughter isn’t the only one. Just the only one who’s told you.

LessOutragePlz

JoannaJag wrote: »

The school has been very accommodating and supportive to the trans child and has made these arrangements in order not to discriminate but my own daughter is experiencing discrimation as a result as there is no single sex area to access the in school activity.

It would appear that the trans persons rights are more important than the rights of your daughter to feel safe and comfortable in a changing room. Now whether that is legally correct I don't know to be honest.

Zookey123

JoannaJag wrote: »

It’s not the private facility but the school who have not made a female changing room available. I was hoping she would have some gender based rights to not have to strip naked in front of a male bodied person in order to participate in a school activity (during school hours).

Yes there is a trans girl in the school.

Ok as far as im aware as long as the trans girl has legally changed her sex then there is nothing you can really do. Many places are adopting gender neutral changing rooms with stalls nowadays perhaps bring that up in your next parents teacher meeting?

walshb

Why don’t the school construct a special changing area for the boy, who thinks he is a girl?

The boy should not be able to change in a female changing room. End of.

Male changing areas for those born male

Female changing areas for those born female

Gender neutral changing areas for those who can’t decide, or don’t know..This group have two choices now. One for the sex they were born, and 2 for them not knowing..

JoannaJag

It’s not possible in Ireland to legally change gender before the age of 16 (yet). This is a social transition.

emeldc

Do the school allow the trans girl to use the girls toilets.

Zookey123

JoannaJag wrote: »

It’s not possible in Ireland to legally change gender before the age of 16 (yet). This is a social transition.

Ok well then you might have some grounds to make a formal complaint however I would be aware that you could get some heat for it so best do it anonymously.

JoannaJag

Yes gender neutral changing would solve the conflict for sure but the school is using a private pool and have no control over the changing facilities (which are pretty poor to begin with).

JoannaJag

Yes I the trans girl uses the girls toilets but that doesn’t affect my daughter either way. The issue is with the communal changing facility.

GerardKeating

JoannaJag wrote: »

The school has been very accommodating and supportive to the trans child and has made these arrangements in order not to discriminate but my own daughter is experiencing discrimation as a result as there is no single sex area to access the in school activity.

Just to clarify your point about the lack of single sex changing areas.

The "Female" changing area is use by Females and a Trans Child, but the "Male" changing area is used exclusivilly by males?

JoannaJag

GerardKeating wrote: »

Just to clarify your point about the lack of single sex changing areas.

The "Female" changing area is use by Females and a Trans Child, but the "Male" changing area is used exclusivilly by males?

Correct.

Zookey123

walshb wrote: »

Why don’t the school construct a special changing area for the boy, who thinks he is a girl?

The boy should not be able to change in a female changing room. End of.

Male changing areas for those born male

Female changing areas for those born female

Gender neutral changing areas for those who can’t decide, or don’t know..This group have two choices now. One for the sex they were born, and 2 for them not knowing..

There was absolutely no need for that. It doesnt help the discussion at all.
Thats not true. A lot of places nowadays have gender neutral changing areas with stalls that accommodate everyone so you dont have to change out in the open.

Losty Dublin

JoannaJag wrote: »

The school has been very accommodating and supportive to the trans child and has made these arrangements in order not to discriminate but my own daughter is experiencing discrimation as a result as there is no single sex area to access the in school activity.

Let's break this one down.

All the girls change in the one locker room. One of the girls happens to be a transgender girl.

Your daughter feels discriminated against because everybody gets the same facilities and the same classes and the same activity in the same school.

Is this correct?

If so then I really can't see this as discrimination against your daughter.

walshb

Zookey123 wrote: »

There was absolutely no need for that. It doesnt help the discussion at all.
Thats not true. A lot of places nowadays have gender neutral changing areas with stalls that accommodate everyone so you dont have to change out in the open.

I take your point, but overly censoring the discussion’s content should not be encouraged either..

Xterminator

JoannaJag wrote: »

I’d like to know where we stand legally before pursuing my complaint.

Not a leg to stand on legally.

What you want is them to break dept guidance to meet your wants.
here is the extract from schools guidance

"

Other students
and their families may feel uncomfortable
with a transgender student using the same
gender-specific facilities. This discomfort
may be rooted in an unfounded assumption
of inappropriate behaviour on the part
of the student who is transgender and
consequently it is not a reason to deny access
to the transgender student!

"

here is the whole document.
https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Being-LGBT-in-School.pdf

Please for the love of god ut yourself in the shoes of a transgender child in school today. they have higher rates of self harm, lower self esteem, and higher suicide rates.

Now tell them no you can't use the gender changing room you identify with. More damage caused.

Yet allowing them causes no harm no harm to cis students. Small snippet of evidence.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/5/13/17938102/transgender-people-bathrooms-locker-rooms-schools

https://transequality.org/what-experts-say

Im sorry to hear this makes you child uncomfortable. But i think the needs of the all students have to be balanced, with a focus on causing no harm.

All too many LGBT+ students have a bad school exerience. All to many experience homophobia and abuse, and many feel unsafe.

https://www.thejournal.ie/lgbt-students-at-school-survey-4887291-Nov2019/

I suggest you discuss with your child the situation, and listen to what their fears are. You can then reassure them there are no 'bad consequences' and have a serious discussion with your child. Gay is not catching.

Zookey123

walshb wrote: »

I take your point, but overly censoring the discussion’s content should not be encouraged either..

Ok how exactly did I censor you? I pointed out a a comment you made that was completely unnecessary. you have your opinion on that topic and thats fine but its not helping this discussion at all.

Sir Oxman

I think rather than this thread becoming a tit for tat exchange, maybe posters with legal knowledge of the actual law on this subject can advise the OP?

walshb

Zookey123 wrote: »

Ok how exactly did I censor you? I pointed out a a comment you made that was completely unnecessary. you have your opinion on that topic and thats fine but its not helping this discussion at all.

Ok,

Are you the mod here on what is and is not allowed be said?

Once I keep it civil, dignified and respectful, and within the rules here, that is all that matters!!

JoannaJag

My child is friends with the child in question. She is not afraid of them. But she does not want to be naked in front of a male bodied child - the same as this child does not want to be naked in front of the other male bodied children. The boys in the class are lovely and accepting and no risk to the trans child, but if that child can be moved because they are uncomfortable, why is my own child’s discomfort unreasonable?

She is being treated differently on the basis of her gender.

The religious discrimination was hypothetical. I wondered if someone Muslim for example would be experiencing religious discrimination.

Zookey123

walshb wrote: »

Ok,

Are you the mod here on what is and is not allowed be said?

Once I keep it civil, dignified and respectful, and within the rules here, that is all that matters!!

So what I cant point out an unnecessary comment that you made but you can say whatever nonsense you want? Perhaps follow your own rule then?

Caranica

My heart goes out to the trans girl if this is the kind of transphobia she has to deal with. Do you think the girl enjoys the thought of changing in a shared changing room?

You cannot discriminate on grounds of gender. A transgender female is a female and should be accommodated in the female changing facilities.

Bubbaclaus

I have no pity for you and your daughter, and feel for the trans person having to suffer transpobia from the pupils and parents of pupils in her own school.

GreeBo

JoannaJag wrote: »

She is being treated differently on the basis of her gender.

Differently to whom? From what I can see she is being treated exactly the same as all the other females? (and indeed the males)

JoannaJag

Thanks but I wasn’t looking for pity or a pat on the back. I wanted to know my legal position. A trans woman must be treated as a woman once they can self-ID but as pre-teens they are still legally a boy.

walshb

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I have no pity for you and your daughter, and feel for the trans person having to suffer transpobia from the pupils and parents of pupils in her own school.

This attitude is worse than the perceived transphobia you allege..

Diplomacy, understanding and empathy on both sides is what is needed..

I may have a view on how to solve this, but not at the expense of what your are espousing..There are two sides in this. Not just the transgender person.

Jasper79

JoannaJag wrote: »

Thanks but I wasn’t looking for pity or a pat on the back. I wanted to know my legal position. A trans woman must be treated as a woman once they can self-ID but as pre-teens they are still legally a boy.

Yes this seems crazy, Id approach the school for any policy. I would not be comfortable with a male ( male organs) sharing a changing room with my daughter and would be making it known to the school/ BOM or whoever .

Sardonicat

Caranica wrote: »

My heart goes out to the trans girl if this is the kind of transphobia she has to deal with. Do you think the girl enjoys the thought of changing in a shared changing room?

You cannot discriminate on grounds of gender. A transgender female is a female and should be accommodated in the female changing facilities.

Female bodied female is also a female. She doesn't want to change in front of male bodied person. Neither did the male bodied female and she was facilitated. Why is the male bodied female's discomfort catered to but the female bodied person's discomfort is labelled transpophobia?

quokula

Sardonicat wrote: »

Female bodied female is also a female. She doesn't want to change in front of male bodied person. Neither did the male bodied female and she was facilitated. Why is the male bodied female's discomfort catered to but the female bodied person's discomfort is labelled transpophobia?

There's a pretty big difference between asking a female to change in a male changing room full of boys, and asking a female to change in a female changing room full of girls, one of whom happens to be transexual which makes her "uncomfortable"

I'm a straight male but I've always been uncomfortable getting naked in front of other people in any changing room regardless of their gender or orientation - I don't think that would give me a right to ban them from the changing room.

I also don't think I've ever been in a position where I couldn't deal with it with a towel or changing in a toilet cubicle or waiting for one of the one or two private spaces in the changing room to come available.

Sonrisa

JoannaJag wrote: »

It is not hypothetical. My daughter is uncomfortable changing in the same communal area as a male bodied person (as are we as her parents). This is a public school, not a business.

I wondered if there was any legal reason for a complaint about the arrangement. Is there a case for discrimination on the basis of gender under section 42 of the human rights act where the school is a service and children are the service users?

I put an objection in writing and did not receive a response beyond an acknowledgment. I’d like to know where we stand legally before pursuing my complaint.

My view would be no, there is no legal basis for your complaint and it's therefore a matter for you to resolve with the school on a non-legal basis. Your daughter feels uncomfortable but she isn't being discriminated against.

Also, you said swimming, which for most schools is outside the school and therefore in an outside business so it would be ultimately up to them I would think but probably with discussion with the school.

emeldc

Sardonicat wrote: »

Female bodied female is also a female. She doesn't want to change in front of male bodied person. Neither did the male bodied female and she was facilitated. Why is the male bodied female's discomfort catered to but the female bodied person's discomfort is labelled transpophobia?

I was trying to think how to word that exact post for the last 10 minutes. That's it in a nut shell (no pun intended).

NuMarvel

JoannaJag wrote: »

My child is friends with the child in question. She is not afraid of them. But she does not want to be naked in front of a male bodied child - the same as this child does not want to be naked in front of the other male bodied children. The boys in the class are lovely and accepting and no risk to the trans child, but if that child can be moved because they are uncomfortable, why is my own child’s discomfort unreasonable?

She is being treated differently on the basis of her gender.

The religious discrimination was hypothetical. I wondered if someone Muslim for example would be experiencing religious discrimination.

The transgender child isn't using the girls' changing room just because she's uncomfortable though. She's using the girl's changing room, because she identifies as a girl, and the school have facilitated that by treating her as a girl.

I think the better approach here is to see if you can find out what's causing your daughter's discomfort and address that first. Does she understand what being transgender is (in so far is appropriate for whatever age she is)? Has she maybe subconsciously picked up signals somewhere that transgender people might be a danger to girls and women? There has been a lot of discussion of transgender people's rights lately, and even the way discussions are framed can leave people with a subconscious impression, especially children.

That might be a better option than the legal route, especially for something as sensitive as this.

pwurple

This changing room nonsense really annoys the absolute bajesus out of me. Just use a towel ffs, and stop thinking anyone who sees an inch of skin is going to be unable to resist and jump on someone.

Our swimming club had the most bizaar rules.
Female children with female parent -> female changing room.
Female children with male parent -> male changing room
Male children with male parent -> male changing room
male children with female parent -> male changing room.

And the male changing room was 1/3 the size of the female one. when I questioned this absurdity I was told the rule is because men are known to be predators. ???

Let's be honest, that's your daughters issue. She is assuming a male-bodied person is in some way a threat or harmful to her. It's really strange, unless she has actually been abused by every male she has encountered in her short life to date.


Is it normal to assume she has NOT been raped by her own father here, or are we to assume opposite is the default?

Mrs OBumble

Caranica wrote: »

A transgender female is a female and should be accommodated in the female changing facilities.

A person with a penis should not be getting changed in a communal space with persons who do not have penises.

No matter what gender any of them think they are.

Xterminator

Hi Op

did you see the link i posted to the schools guidance material provide by dept of education? School is following department policy, and correctly interpreting it.

Your child is not being discriminated against, in any way. you just don't agree with it. There is a difference.

You could alway have your child moved to another class or school that you hope does not have a transgender student. or withdraw them from swimming.

Losty Dublin

NuMarvel wrote: »

I think the better approach here is to see if you can find out what's causing your daughter's discomfort and address that first. Does she understand what being transgender is (in so far is appropriate for whatever age she is)? Has she maybe subconsciously picked up signals somewhere that transgender people might be a danger to girls and women? There has been a lot of discussion of transgender people's rights lately, and even the way discussions are framed can leave people with a subconscious impression, especially children.

A cursory glance over OP's posting history would shed a bit of light on same.

Sonrisa

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A person with a penis should not be getting changed in a communal space with persons who do not have penises.

No matter what gender any of them think they are.

That's what you think.....

But there's no provision of law that says so. In fact, the law recognises plenty of people with penises as female.

Perhaps this post would be better in some sort of school related forum about resolving school based issues?

Sonrisa

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi Op

did you see the link i posted to the schools guidance material provide by dept of education? School is following department policy, and correctly interpreting it.

Your child is not being discriminated against, in any way. you just don't agree with it. There is a difference.

You could alway have your child moved to another class or school that you hope does not have a transgender student. or withdraw them from swimming.

This is the solution.

Feisar

Sonrisa wrote: »

That's what you think.....

But there's no provision of law that says so. In fact, the law recognises plenty of people with penises as female.

Perhaps this post would be better in some sort of school related forum about resolving school based issues?

Did you ever hear the one: the law is a ass.

Xterminator

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A person with a penis should not be getting changed in a communal space with persons who do not have penises.

No matter what gender any of them think they are.

Do you think a penis defines a person? Are you defined as a person by your genitals? What do you say when people are born with both genitals. It does happen. Its called Intersex. what that doesnt fit your world view?


Follow that through to it logical conclusion? what happens to someone who has their genitals removed by accident or by design?

should someone who has been castrated be banned from male changing rooms ? What if a woman has a masectomy? No more changing room for her? Or a hysterectomy? No more womb, go change in the garden?

Feisar

Sonrisa wrote: »

This is the solution.

How is this right? We are talking about an early teenage girl not wanting to get changed in front of a person with a penis, i.e. a male.

Is this where we've gone to?

JoannaJag

I did see it Xterminator, thanks for posting. Yes I strongly disagree with the guidelines, particularly the assumption that any objection comes from
A place of fear of trans people. I was wondering if there was any legal basis for contesting it. Sadly and worryingly it seems not. Thanks to those who offered constructive advice. I’ll be speaking to the school next week. I wouldn’t have her removed from the class at all but we may choose to withdraw from swimming if we can’t come to an agreement.

facehugger99

The guy with the penis should be using the male changing room - simple.

if he tried to walk into the women's changing room in our gym when my daughter was using it, he'd be getting a kick in the balls for his trouble.