Should people who dont follow guidelines lose their jobs/welfare

Pkiernan

With all the virtue signalling, everyone in the public eye who doesnt follow guidleines is losing their jobs.

Should this be extended to people on low profile normal jobs?
What about the lowlifes you see on the Dart not wearing masks? By the same logic they should be losing their dole money?

Phil Hogan may be a jackass, but its a big loss to Ireland, and his behaviour is no worse then huge swathes of our population.

Is it a case that successful people should know better than us common folk?

Wanderer78

Definitely, humans who are forced to change their ways by poverty, always behave rationally, and change their behaviours accordingly!

rtron

Pkiernan wrote: »

With all the virtue signalling, everyone in the public eye who doesnt follow guidleines is losing their jobs.

Should this be extended to people on low profile normal jobs?
What about the lowlifes you see on the Dart not wearing masks? By the same logic they should be losing their dole money?

Phil Hogan may be a jackass, but its a big loss to Ireland, and his behaviour is no worse then huge swathes of our population.

Is it a case that successful people should know better than us common folk?

You make good point op. Successful people such as Hogan and Calleary should know better. What's more they should also receive fines of 2500 for not adhering to the guidelines like us normal folk. I think a fine of 2500 to a person on the dole will eat in to their retirement fund.

Wanderer78

rtron wrote:

You make good point op. Successful people such as Hogan and Calleary should know better. What's more they should also receive fines of 2500 for not adhering to the guidelines like us normal folk. I think a fine of 2500 to a person on the dole will eat in to their retirement fund.

So people on the dole generally have a couple of grand sitting around?

rtron

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So people on the dole generally have a couple of grand sitting around?

If they don't they may face jail.

Wanderer78

rtron wrote:

If they don't they may face jail.

And incarceration is the cheaper option?

ronivek

Nobody who doesn't follow 'guidelines' should lose anything. It's a guideline; it's not a law.

If something is enshrined in law then punish them as the law requires; not in the court of public opinion.

Electronic Writer

If those lowlifes on the Dart were given the choice of a free mask , which , let's " face " it , pardon the pun , would be a proper suggestion from Dart station authorities , or , they wouldn't get into the station , even more of them would do what is asked .

What's fifty cents in the new covid19 world ?

And , the public purse could pay for it by checking for valid tickets from well to do fare dodgers in suits.

Pardon , thieves in suits !

rtron

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And incarceration is the cheaper option?

Probably not. But these are the penalties that were put in place to surpress the virus and maintain public safety.
If it's not working then we have bigger problems than Hogan and Calleary.

biko

People cancelling other people are contemptible.
People make mistakes and there is no need to try to kill their career over it.

Remember that what you do unto others today may just be used against you tomorrow.

Ash.J.Williams

my mileage makes phil hogans look miniscule, it's funny watching the amazement of some people at the fact he can do 5 counties in one day

Fr Tod Umptious

rtron wrote: »

You make good point op. Successful people such as Hogan and Calleary should know better. What's more they should also receive fines of 2500 for not adhering to the guidelines like us normal folk. I think a fine of 2500 to a person on the dole will eat in to their retirement fund.

Callery lost his job as minister because he should have known better.
He was part of the cabinet that created the guidelines but immediately broke them.
That was fairly cut and dried.

Hogan was more of a witch hunt.

He broke the guidelines by being at the dinner, no different than someone being at a house party if you ask me.
But because he was high profile people dug deeper, and found that he had broken guidelines more than once in the previous weeks, no different than someone going to multiple house parties if you ask me.

But because he was high profile he had to go.

LeBash

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And incarceration is the cheaper option?

If thats the way you want to go, everyone has a PPS number, and you could take x per week off it.

Yeah, that'll never happen though. Serious criminals don't go to prison often, so i don't see that happen.

Wanderer78

rtron wrote: »

Probably not. But these are the penalties that were put in place to surpress the virus and maintain public safety.
If it's not working then we have bigger problems than Hogan and Calleary.

so it could potentially cost the taxpayer more, and its unclear if it will prevent people from braking the rules....

do we need to rethink this approach?

Wanderer78

LeBash wrote: »

If thats the way you want to go, everyone has a PPS number, and you could take x per week off it.

Yeah, that'll never happen though. Serious criminals don't go to prison often, so i don't see that happen.

would this really resolve the issue, or further complicated it?

does incarceration actually work in preventing crime?

Mongfinder General

Try enforcing rules/legislation. For example, a Garda spots somebody breaking the rules. The person is either compliant and hands over personal details requested or is not compliant. There are many ways to be non compliant. 1. F you, civil liberties blah, blah. Stand off, back up called. 2. A runner. Legs it. Garda may or may not capture the person. 3. Violent reaction - we all know how that can go. Then there's the process through the judiciary etc. The amount of time and resources needed to enforce measures against civil disobedience may not be worth it unless it pays for itself. You would need a stasi type operation were thousands of snitches and enforcement agents prosecuted these measures. I can't see that happening in this country. No appetite for it

Wanderer78

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Try enforcing rules/legislation. For example, a Garda spots somebody breaking the rules. The person is either compliant and hands over personal details requested or is not compliant. There are many ways to be non compliant. 1. F you, civil liberties blah, blah. Stand off, back up called. 2. A runner. Legs it. Garda may or may not capture the person. 3. Violent reaction - we all know how that can go. Then there's the process through the judiciary etc. The amount of time and resources needed to enforce measures against civil disobedience may not be worth it unless it pays for itself. You would need a stasi type operation were thousands of snitches and enforcement agents prosecuted these measures. I can't see that happening in this country. No appetite for it

im sure it would cost the tax payer little or nothing to do all that!

Pkiernan

I brought the kids on the Dart into the Natural History Museum.

Unfortunately some utter filth boarded at Killester with no masks, generally acting the maggot.
What should their punishment be?

Otherwise decent people are getting fired, dirtbags face no consequences, and these animals are more likely to have Covid!

Wanderer78

Pkiernan wrote: »

I brought the kids on the Dart into the Natural History Museum.

Unfortunately some utter filth boarded at Killester with no masks, generally acting the maggot.
What should their punishment be?

Otherwise decent people are getting fired, dirtbags face no consequences, and these animals are more likely to have Covid!

no clue, but maybe it would be a good idea if we started by not calling them 'lowlifes'!

Sardonicat

Pkiernan wrote: »

With all the virtue signalling, everyone in the public eye who doesnt follow guidleines is losing their jobs.

Should this be extended to people on low profile normal jobs?
What about the lowlifes you see on the Dart not wearing masks? By the same logic they should be losing their dole money?

Phil Hogan may be a jackass, but its a big loss to Ireland, and his behaviour is no worse then huge swathes of our population.

Is it a case that successful people should know better than us common folk?

How about just chucking them off the train at the next station? Or nor letting them on the train to begin with? Employ a few inspectors to walk the platform/carriages. We could do with them even without covid.

Donald Trump

Wanderer78 wrote: »

no clue, but maybe it would be a good idea if we started by not calling them 'lowlifes'!

In case it hurts their feelings? :rolleyes:

Wanderer78

Donald Trump wrote: »

In case it hurts their feelings? :rolleyes:

or maybe its just fcuking ignorance, shouldnt you be busy with your campaign?

Donald Trump

Wanderer78 wrote: »

or maybe its just fcuking ignorance, shouldnt you be busy with your campaign?

I have people to do that for me.


Do you think those people on the DART might not be aware of this whole "corona" thing? I mean, it is fairly new and not a whole lot of people would have noticed anything about it. You'd think the authorities or media might have some items on the news about it or something the odd time so that people aren't ignorant of it!

Wanderer78

Donald Trump wrote: »

I have people to do that for me.


Do you think those people on the DART might not be aware of this whole "corona" thing? I mean, it is fairly new and not a whole lot of people would have noticed anything about it. You'd think they might have some items on the news about it or something the odd time.

fair play

sadly some people are extremely unaware of the dangers of the virus, ive seen this myself in the autism community, id imagine others, with other complex issues are similar

Donald Trump

Wanderer78 wrote: »

fair play

sadly some people are extremely unaware of the dangers of the virus, ive seen this myself in the autism community, id imagine others, with other complex issues are similar

Oh of course. If someone has other issues then there should be some exceptions or understanding given. There are plenty of people though who should know better and could easily behave but instead just spout out "my doctor etc." when confronted. I think that those are the people who are insulting to the genuine cases.


That poster appeared to be painting a picture of someone with just bad manners/attitude


What really pisses me off with people in general is when they are badly behaved for little things with minimal actual benefit to themselves and which would take almost zero effort to be a bit more respectful. The classic example I can always think of is the person at the bus stop either smoking a cigarette or eating something and the bus comes so the butt/wrapper gets dropped on the ground. Despite the queue for the bus passing a bin.

Wanderer78

Donald Trump wrote: »

Oh of course. If someone has other issues then there should be some exceptions or understanding given. There are plenty of people though who should know better and could easily behave but instead just spout out "my doctor etc." when confronted. I think that those are the people who are insulting to the genuine cases.



That poster appeared to be painting a picture of someone with just bad manners/attitude

but what if we dont know what the story is with others, many of these issues are in fact undiagnosed, even the person involved maybe unaware of their issues

suicide_circus

If some people refuse to cower and obey the diktats brought in through Project Fear, they need to be sent for immediate re-education at special camps we set up for the purpose.

Donald Trump

suicide_circus wrote: »

If some people refuse to cower and obey the diktats brought in through Project Fear, they need to be sent for immediate re-education at special camps we set up for the purpose.

For some reason, this reminds me of the fella who was videoing himself licking toilet seats when corona first appeared and then caught it himself and videoed himself crying about it.

Pkiernan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

no clue, but maybe it would be a good idea if we started by not calling them 'lowlifes'!

They were lowlifes.
One of them appeared to be arranging a cocaine deal loudly on his phone

Still, maybe he's a misunderstood most-vulnerable...
Let's give him more dole.

suicide_circus

Donald Trump wrote: »

For some reason, this reminds me of the fella who was videoing himself licking toilet seats when corona first appeared and then caught it himself and videoed himself crying about it.

Yes, good, excellent! Anxiety levels increasing...must....comply!!!

Wanderer78

Pkiernan wrote: »

They were lowlifes.
One of them appeared to be arranging a cocaine deal loudly on his phone

Still, maybe he's a misunderstood most-vulnerable...
Let's give him more dole.

what do you actually mean by this statement? why do people turn to drug dealing?

throwing a few quid at people, doesnt solve their issues!

Uriel.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

fair play

sadly some people are extremely unaware of the dangers of the virus, ive seen this myself in the autism community, id imagine others, with other complex issues are similar

So all scroungers have autism now? FFS some people will go the lengths to defend, the thankfully, minority of low life leeches in the State.

Like anything, and this goes well beyond covid, we should limit the money for nothing approach. Turn welfare from support to incentive.

For those who can work but don't for whatever reason, their weekly payment should be tied to community style service. For family carers, pay them more and support them more but have full proper checks and balances including mandatory training.

In covid land, let all the pubs reopen ASAP but put in place minimum mandatory requirements and police them fully and inspect very regularly. Not by the gardaí but by health safety inspectors. Have an escalation process. 1st breach immediate, 24 hour closure order, 2nd Breach weekend closure order, third 1 week, 4th 1 month, 5th, 3 months etc. X months without any breach, have step back system (eg you're on 2 breaches, step back to 1).

It's time we started shifting responsibility, leave things in people's own hands but have proper oversight and compliance systems in place and use them. Then if people lose money or lose business more of it is on their own heads.

Wanderer78

Uriel. wrote: »

So all scroungers have autism now? FFS some people will go the lengths to defend, the thankfully, minority of low life leeches in the State.

Like anything, and this goes well beyond covid, we should limit the money for nothing approach. Turn welfare from support to incentive.

For those who can work but don't for whatever reason, their weekly payment should be tied to community style service. For family carers, pay them more and support them more but have full proper checks and balances including mandatory training.

In covid land, let all the pubs reopen ASAP but put in place minimum mandatory requirements and police them fully and inspect very regularly. Not by the gardaí but by health safety inspectors. Have an escalation process. 1st breach immediate, 24 hour closure order, 2nd Breach weekend closure order, third 1 week, 4th 1 month, 5th, 3 months etc. X months without any breach, have step back system (eg you're on 2 breaches, step back to 1).

It's time we started shifting responsibility, leave things in people's own hands but have proper oversight and compliance systems in place and use them. Then if people lose money or lose business more of it is on their own heads.

what????

Mrs OBumble

Pkiernan wrote: »

I brought the kids on the Dart into the Natural History Museum.

Unfortunately some utter filth boarded at Killester with no masks, generally acting the maggot.
What should their punishment be?

Otherwise decent people are getting fired, dirtbags face no consequences, and these animals are more likely to have Covid!

For all you know, they have a disability which means they are recommended not to mask.

But that's irrelevant. At the moment, public transport is only supposed to be used for journeys which are "absolutely necessary". You shouldn't have been there for a totally unnecessary jaunt to the museum. You should be fined as much as the non mask-wearer..

Do people who lose their jobs also lose their forthcoming welfare, or are they just relegated to welfare first, followed by loss of welfare for any further transgressions?

The half-witted nonsense that right wingers come up with never fails to amuse me.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

Do people who lose their jobs also lose their forthcoming welfare, or are they just relegated to welfare first, followed by loss of welfare for any further transgressions?

The half-witted nonsense that right wingers come up with never fails to amuse me.

...and i thought i come up with some weird sh1t, being a lefty!

smellyoldboot

"And number two
You have the right to food money
Providing of course
You don't mind a little
Investigation, humiliation
And if you cross your fingers
Rehabilitation"

Mongfinder General

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im sure it would cost the tax payer little or nothing to do all that!

What? Hiring thousands of enforcement agents costs nothing?

owlbethere

If people are jot following the guidelines and they are on jobseekers allowance, they do have a risk of picking up the virus if they are not following the guidelines. No one knows what way your body is going to react to the virus, whether you will get a mild dose, or become ill for some weeks, or develop long haul covid, or require hospital care. To be on jobseekers, someone has to be seeking and available for work. If someone is not following the guidelines and they become unwell, they do have a high chance of losing the jobseekers allowance.

It's best to follow the guidelines and minimise risks of catching covid.

paw patrol

yes we should interfere (and possibly ruin) the lives of those who won't do as there told.
then we can point at china and scold the CCP for being - see you next tues.


I posted this before , but i'll say it again.



covid19 has exposed an insidious side to irish society. A weird perversion in trying to punish those that don't agree with the man on the telly.

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Definitely, humans who are forced to change their ways by poverty, always behave rationally, and change their behaviours accordingly!

its regrettable that you believe people are incapable of showing responsibility due to their potential " low " means

i think at times like this we must expect and demand more of everyone

Wanderer78

Mongfinder General wrote: »

What? Hiring thousands of enforcement agents costs nothing?

exactly!

owlbethere wrote: »

If people are jot following the guidelines and they are on jobseekers allowance, they do have a risk of picking up the virus if they are not following the guidelines. No one knows what way your body is going to react to the virus, whether you will get a mild dose, or become ill for some weeks, or develop long haul covid, or require hospital care. To be on jobseekers, someone has to be seeking and available for work. If someone is not following the guidelines and they become unwell, they do have a high chance of losing the jobseekers allowance.

It's best to follow the guidelines and minimise risks of catching covid.

to be honest, if you end up in icu from covid, whether your on the dole or the wealthiest person on the planet, i suspect you wont be giving a fcuk of your financial situation

Mad_maxx wrote: »

its regrettable that you believe people are incapable of showing responsibility due to their potential " low " means

i think at times like this we must expect and demand more of everyone

you can expect all you want, sometimes people dont really understand the dangers and/or give a fcuk

ThunbergsAreGo

No, we need to stop these curtain twitching witch hunts

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And incarceration is the cheaper option?

What does the cost have to do with it?

It's cheaper for society to let O'Reilly out to work, should we?

I certainly think there should be penalties but the idea that someone that works gets punished more, nope.

Equality in law, equality in life.

Wanderer78

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What does the cost have to do with it?

It's cheaper for society to let O'Reilly out to work, should we?

if we start locking up a sh1te load of people, i suspect many taxpayers are gonna be concerned about the potential increase in their taxes, in order to facilitate these actions

begbysback

Pkiernan wrote: »

With all the virtue signalling, everyone in the public eye who doesnt follow guidleines is losing their jobs.

Should this be extended to people on low profile normal jobs?
What about the lowlifes you see on the Dart not wearing masks? By the same logic they should be losing their dole money?

Phil Hogan may be a jackass, but its a big loss to Ireland, and his behaviour is no worse then huge swathes of our population.

Is it a case that successful people should know better than us common folk?

People should lose their jobs for virtue signalling

no.8

Wanderer78 wrote:

no clue, but maybe it would be a good idea if we started by not calling them 'lowlifes'!

Awww the poor babies

Wanderer78

no.8 wrote: »

Awww the poor babies

or we could continue to ridicule them, im sure it ll cause change!:rolleyes:

smellyoldboot

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What does the cost have to do with it?

It's cheaper for society to let O'Reilly out to work, should we?

In some ways we only pay welfare because it's cheaper than maintaining an even larger prison system and police force. The cost of peace. It doesn't deter all crime but prevents a good deal of crimes of desperation that would otherwise be rampant. There's plenty scamming it/taking advantage and even some we pay for who you'd happily see starve but in a more harsh environment these types would be more desperate and likely more violent so to a certain degree you have to just hold your nose and get on with it.

Wanderer78

smellyoldboot wrote: »

In some ways we only pay welfare because it's cheaper than maintaining an even larger prison system and police force. The cost of peace. It doesn't deter all crime but prevents a good deal of crimes of desperation that would otherwise be rampant. There's plenty scamming it/taking advantage and even some we pay for who you'd happily see starve but in a more harsh environment these types would be more desperate and likely more violent so to a certain degree you have to just hold your nose and get on with it.

or are those doing so, doing so, in order to survive?