Buying at auction

Thirsty

A property I had indicated an interest in to purchase at auction (and had undertaken the usual pre-purchase steps), was withdrawn the day before it was due for Auction.

This happened about two weeks ago.

C'est la vie. Continued with my search.

On checking the same website for the next auction, I see the property in question was sold at Auction, at the date and time previously given. It had not in fact been withdrawn, there was just one accepted bid at a figure of AMV.

Prior to the property being withdrawn there were 8 other 'interested' parties.

Do I have grounds for complaint here? or is this legitimate business practice?

Donald Trump

Thirsty wrote: »

A property I had indicated an interest in to purchase at auction (and had undertaken the usual pre-purchase steps), was withdrawn the day before it was due for Auction.

This happened about two weeks ago.

C'est la vie. Continued with my search.

On checking the same website for the next auction, I see the property in question was sold at Auction, at the date and time previously given. It had not in fact been withdrawn, there was just one accepted bid at a figure of AMV.

Prior to the property being withdrawn there were 8 other 'interested' parties.

Do I have grounds for complaint here? or is this legitimate business practice?

If it's a private seller I'd imagine that they can do what they like.



If the seller wasn't aware that potential bidders were told it was withdrawn then that is a whole different matter.

Thirsty

If it's a private seller I'd imagine that they can do what they like.

Indeed, but I (and likely others) were told the property was withdrawn, so did not attend the online auction. Whereas in fact the online auction did go ahead.

My question is if this is legitimate practice for an auction house?

If the seller wasn't aware that potential bidders were told it was withdrawn then that is a whole different matter.

I've no way of knowing that, and any complaint there would be for the vendor I would think.

Auction properties often have “unless sold prior” notice attached to them. If you are interested in a property, nothing to stop you contacting them before the auction to make an offer subject to it being withdrawn from auction. It is then up to the seller to decide if they want to take your money, or spin the wheel at an auction and potentially get less for the property.

Thirsty

Dav010 wrote: »

Auction properties often have “unless sold prior” notice attached to them. If you are interested in a property, nothing to stop you contacting them before the auction to make an offer subject to it being withdrawn from auction. It is then up to the seller to decide if they want to take your money, or spin the wheel at an auction and potentially get less for the property.

Yes all this is true; but perhaps I am not asking my question clearly.

1. Property is listed for auction.
2. I do my pre work / legals etc.
3. I am registered to bid at the online auction.
4. The day before the online auction I am told the property is withdrawn.
5. A short time later, I find out that the property was not in fact withdrawn and was auction on the date and time previously set.

I can't say if the email advising of the withdrawal was malignant or not, but it was clearly unprofessional.

My question is this: do I have grounds for complaint?

ELM327

Simply put, no.

Thirsty

Thirsty wrote: »

Yes all this is true; but perhaps I am not asking my question clearly.

1. Property is listed for auction.
2. I do my pre work / legals etc.
3. I am registered to bid at the online auction.
4. The day before the online auction I am told the property is withdrawn.
5. A short time later, I find out that the property was not in fact withdrawn and was auction on the date and time previously set.

I can't say if the email advising of the withdrawal was malignant or not, but it was clearly unprofessional.

My question is this: do I have grounds for complaint?

Are you certain it went to public auction where bids were taken, or, was it just marked as sold on the day of the auction without going to public bids?

What did the auction house say when you contacted them regarding this?

It’s hard to see on what grounds you could base your complaint, they have no contractual obligation to you.

Thirsty

Are you certain it went to public auction where bids were taken, or, was it just marked as sold on the day of the auction without going to public bids?

Yes, there was one bid and it's marked as sold.

What did the auction house say when you contacted them regarding this?

Haven't yet had a reply from them.

It’s hard to see on what grounds you could base your complaint, they have no contractual obligation to you.

Agreed, no contract exists. However, is this normal and accepted business practice? Are there grounds for a complaint to the relevant authority?

I have no way of saying for certain there was anything nefarious going on; but if you wanted to be sure there were no other bidders, it would be an ideal way of doing it!

cruizer101

Does vendor live in the house, I know probably less likely for house at auction.
Could you contact them directly, call to house or drop letter in door they might see that even if don't live there, ask neighbour if they have contact details could they pass on message.

Thirsty

cruizer101 wrote: »

Does vendor live in the house, I know probably less likely for house at auction.
Could you contact them directly, call to house or drop letter in door they might see that even if don't live there, ask neighbour if they have contact details could they pass on message.

I'm a bit lost? Why would I do that?

cruizer101

From my understanding you are implying the auction house sent out an email saying auction was off in order to allow a single person to attend auction and bid and win auction on the house.

If that is the case the vendor would not be happy about that and would have a likely have a case against auction house and would not have to sell the property.

You could then make a direct offer to the vendor to purchase the property.

cruizer101

cruizer101 wrote: »

From my understanding you are implying the auction house sent out an email saying auction was off in order to allow a single person to attend auction and bid and win auction on the house.

If that is the case the vendor would not be happy about that and would have a likely have a case against auction house and would not have to sell the property.

You could then make a direct offer to the vendor to purchase the property.

How would you stop people in the room/online bidding? A private seller would be able to log on and watch bid.

Thirsty

cruizer101 wrote: »

From my understanding you are implying the auction house sent out an email saying auction was off in order to allow a single person to attend auction and bid and win auction on the house.

I can swear under oath to the email withdrawing the property.

I can't say for certain what the motivation was.

Its a bit of a long game to see if the property comes back on the market so I wouldn't be going there.

Is this practice common I wonder?

Thirsty

Thirsty wrote: »

I can swear under oath to the email withdrawing the property.

I can't say for certain what the motivation was.

Its a bit of a long game to see if the property comes back on the market so I wouldn't be going there.

Is this practice common I wonder?

It is common for properties to be withdrawn from auction due to a bid being accepted before the auction time. If you like a property due to be auctioned, there is nothing to stop you making a bid before auction date.

Thirsty

It is common for properties to be withdrawn from auction due to a bid being accepted before the auction time.

Yes, I know. This property was apparently withdrawn the day before but was in fact auctioned at the time and date previously set.

Graham

Are you sure it was actually auctioned on the day and not simply listed in with all of the other properties sold at the auction.

Thirsty

Graham wrote: »

Are you sure it was actually auctioned on the day and not simply listed in with all of the other properties sold at the auction.

It's listed as a separate item, exact date and time and number of bids is clearly shown.

Graham

Thirsty wrote: »

It's listed as a separate item, exact date and time and number of bids is clearly shown.

Understood but not the question I asked.

Not having a go, I'm trying to understand if the Auction house lists pre-auction sales in with those that sold on the day.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

Understood but not the question I asked.

Not having a go, I'm trying to understand if the Auction house lists pre-auction sales in with those that sold on the day.

I’m pretty sure they do as it reflects well on sales stats.

Graham

Dav010 wrote: »

I’m pretty sure they do as it reflects well on sales stats.

+1

Thirsty

if the Auction house lists pre-auction sales in with those that sold on the day.

It's a fair point.

But in the past where properties were sold prior to auction, the communication says exactly that (I've had similar emails previously)

On the website listing it will say withdrawn.

Whereas in this case, it looks just like a normal auction lot and it was never withdrawn.

Thirsty

Thirsty wrote: »

It's a fair point.

But in the past where properties were sold prior to auction, the communication says exactly that (I've had similar emails previously)

On the website listing it will say withdrawn.

Whereas in this case, it looks just like a normal auction lot and it was never withdrawn.

I really can’t see the benefit of them being underhanded in this. In my experience auction houses are impersonal, they don’t much care who the buyers are, the properties are just numbers, they don’t visit them or interact with the sellers/buyers apart from listing the property and organising the bid.

Thirsty

At the end of the day one of these things has to be true:

1. They have been shockingly remiss in incorrectly advising all interested parties that the property was withdrawn, thus removing a cohort of potential bidders.

2. They sold the property prior to Auction for exactly the AMV.

3. They listed the property as having a bid at auction and being sold for the AMV when it wasn't sold at all.

4. There is something underhanded going on.

In the case of 1,2 and 3 I think they are very remiss in their duty to the vendor. They are certainly undermining their own integrity.

I can live with the loss of the pre-auction costs; it goes with the territory sometimes. But I don't think it's reasonable to mess people around in this way. Hence my original question - do I have grounds for complaint?

I'll give the auction house a little more time to respond and then see.

Graham

Thirsty wrote: »

do I have grounds for complaint?

Personal opinion, I don't see any.

Properties are frequently sold before an auction.

Donald Trump

Op, I suppose the important question for you is were you willing to go above what it was sold for?

Graham

Don't see the importance for a property that's already been sold.

Occam's Razor suggests property was withdrawn the day before the auction (as the OP was advised) for an AMV offer and the sale was listed in with all the other sales.

Thirsty

It is listed as being sold for exactly the AMV; I think it would certainly have sold for more if there had been more than one bidder.

Colours to the mast here - I'd have been thrilled to get it at AMV!

Properties are frequently sold before an auction.

Except that, on the basis of the information currently available, it wasn't sold prior to auction.

Thirsty

Thirsty wrote: »

It is listed as being sold for exactly the AMV; I think it would certainly have sold for more if there had been more than one bidder.

Colours to the mast here - I'd have been thrilled to get it at AMV!
Except that, on the basis of the information currently available, it wasn't sold prior to auction.

Looking at it from the sellers point of view, in the current climate it may not have made the AMV so a bid of AMV subject to it being withdrawn from auction may have appealed to the seller.

Thirsty

in the current climate it may not have made the AMV

Unlikely, but we can't know since it was not truly 'auctioned'.

In my experience a bid of exactly the AMV the day before auction would be refused; but this is speculation.

brisan

I would be suspicious to say the least
Maybe a friend of the auction house ??

Vikings

Thirsty wrote: »

At the end of the day one of these things has to be true:

1. They have been shockingly remiss in incorrectly advising all interested parties that the property was withdrawn, thus removing a cohort of potential bidders.

2. They sold the property prior to Auction for exactly the AMV.

3. They listed the property as having a bid at auction and being sold for the AMV when it wasn't sold at all.

4. There is something underhanded going on.

In the case of 1,2 and 3 I think they are very remiss in their duty to the vendor. They are certainly undermining their own integrity.

I can live with the loss of the pre-auction costs; it goes with the territory sometimes. But I don't think it's reasonable to mess people around in this way. Hence my original question - do I have grounds for complaint?

I'll give the auction house a little more time to respond and then see.

You don't have grounds for a complaint - who would you complain to and for what purpose?

Here's what we know:

A buyer offered AMV on the property.
That offer was accepted by the seller.
The property was withdrawn from the open auction.
The property is recorded on the auctioneers website as having been sold with 1 'bid'.

You're annoyed you didn't get an opportunity to bid on the property.

In reality the seller contracts the auctioneer to sell the property. I don't believe there's any contractual or legal obligation for that sale to be conducted by a physical auction.

Thirsty

You're annoyed you didn't get an opportunity to bid on the property.

Very true. I didn't expend money on the pre-auction work and not have the intent to bid.

physical auction.

It was always listed as an online auction.

From what I know at present, the order of events was

Interested buyers were advised that the property was withdrawn from the open (online) auction.
The online auction went ahead, at the date and time previously advised.
The property is recorded on the auctioneers website as having been sold with 1 bid at the AMV.

I think it's reasonable to seek an explanation from the auction house; depending on that it may or may not be appropriate to make a complaint.

I'm still waiting to hear from the auction house.

Thirsty

who would you complain to and for what purpose

To answer this question; I believe the PSRA handles these matters.

Vikings

Thirsty wrote: »

The online auction went ahead, at the date and time previously advised.
The property is recorded on the auctioneers website as having been sold with 1 bid at the AMV.

You're (or anyone elses) intent to bid is fairly irrelevant when the buyers were happy to accept the AMV offer. You had the same opportunity as everyone else to make contact and make an offer prior to the auction - perhaps experienced auction buyers are aware of these things.

You seem convinced that the auction did take place, when I think it is abundantly clear it didn't. This appears to me to be a very simple and clear process - the auction house recorded 1 bid on their system, the AMV, and closed the auction. What you are seeing is the auction house recording the fact that they were responsible for the sale.

Depending on how sophisticated the platform is, that may be the only way for a property to be marked as sold by recording the bid, even if it appears like there was an auction to viewers on the front end.

Thirsty

You seem convinced that the auction did take place

Based on the information that is currently available to me, that is my current conclusion.

when I think it is abundantly clear it didn't.

Based on the information that is currently available, I don't believe we can say that.

that may be the only way for a property to be marked as sold by recording the bid, even if it appears like there was an auction to viewers on the front end.

It's possible that is the case, though more than a little outdated given modern IT systems. The auction house should be able to explain, I would think.

Graham

Thirsty wrote: »

Based on the information that is currently available to me, that is my current conclusion.

What is this 'currently available information'?

Thirsty

Graham wrote: »

What is this 'currently available information'?

I believe I've posted that already.

Graham

Thirsty wrote: »

I believe I've posted that already.

You haven't really, your posts appear to be based around your understanding/interpretation of how the auction company updated their website to reflect this specific transaction.

Thirsty

Graham wrote: »

You haven't really, your posts appear to be based around your understanding/interpretation of how the auction company updated their website to reflect this specific transaction.

I have posted as clearly as I can the information that is currently available to me. If you have a specific question, I'll be happy to answer it if I can.

Graham

Thirsty wrote: »

I have posted as clearly as I can the information that is currently available to me. If you have a specific question, I'll be happy to answer it if I can.

The point is you can't answer any of the questions necessary to clarify what actually happened as opposed to what you think might have happened.

Thirsty

Graham wrote: »

The point is you can't answer any of the questions necessary to clarify what actually happened as opposed to what you think might have happened.

I agree, I don't have the full picture as yet; I have requested that from the auction house.

My question at the outset was to know if advising interested parties that a lot was withdrawn and yet, it appears, still selling it at auction was normal practice; I've not seen it done before, perhaps others have.

javaboy

If it did actually go ahead as an actual auction, then only one of the interested bidders must’ve known about it which implies some sort of conspiracy. Occam’s razor suggests an IT system that doesn’t provide a clear way of entering this type of event or if it does, that the auction house entered the sale incorrectly.