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F1 2020 :Round 7 Belgium GP

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  • I was a fairly big fan going back to the 90s. But it’s like a different sport now. Just so painfully predictable and boring.

    At least in the older days if a driver was dominant they could be nudged off the road or suffer a gearbox failure or massive engine blowout ( remember those? Huge cloud of black smoke and the road ruined by the oil).

    Now the cars are too reliable, every incident scrutinized like VAR ruining the drama in football. It was fun when bastards sometimes got away with something. And the drivers are so dull, bar Ricciardo, I like him.

    Maybe when HAM hangs up his steering wheel things will improve. But I fear not.

    And Spa used to be an epic race, now it’s just another boring procession like the others.

    I even found myself watching British Touring Cars recently. I never had any interest before.




  • rock22 wrote: »
    Surely there are enough one make or one design series already? I would have thought that the whole purpose of F1 was to allow different engines etc. In fact I think a good argument could be made to allow different engine type. F1 was more successful when there were fewer regulations on engine types.

    Maybe you’re right.

    To be honest I’m just frustrated as it’s turned into a bit of a farce at this stage.

    The F2 shouldn’t be more enjoyable to watch but it is.




  • When I saw the crash I instantly thought Red flag. Both cars looked mangled into each other. Thank god it wasn't, as it could've been a very nasty accident. Good reactions from Russell. Really increasing my liking of him each race.




  • Not that we rate Giovinazzi highly anyway but Spa is turning into a bit of a bogey track for him. That's twice now he's had an unforced error causing an accident.


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  • Spa 98: Still two silver and black Mercedes powered cars at the front there!

    Remember that mad race well. Also, I trace back the decline of the F1 I loved to when Hockenheim (the real one) was binned.

    Still sad to think that great track is rotting away in the forest. Will probably show up on Abandoned Engineering one day.




  • LIGHTNING wrote: »
    The more I watch Bottas the more angry I get.


    He can't do anything. Wolff can go on about whatever he wants, the actions of Mercedes demonstrate he's required, by contract, to come in behind Lewis. The importance of a Nico Rosberg being there is now more obvious than it ever was.

    I wonder would an approach along the lines of "do whatever you want" shake things up?

    As in, teams can decide if they want to refuel, or take a two stop or one stop, or no stop! Just let the teams have at it to do whatever suits their car and their driver best. Let them use whatever tyres they want rather than having to use two compounds.

    I feel there's too many rules to follow and too many regs. What was supposed to open the sport up and give the smaller teams a chance has done the opposite. Besides, most of the teams have big investors now, gone are the days of the little teams getting by on a dime. Is there a case to bring back mid season testing?

    Last night I watched the race on 30x fast forward. Besides the crash and the pit stops and one or two moves midfield, from lap 22 onwards the positions didn't change at all. I can't say I was even bored by it as I didn't even watch it properly, there was nothing to engage me. And this is "my" sport, as in, the only one I follow and has been since the Senna days. I want to stay engaged with it, but I don't see how. The pre-show is more interesting than the race (and that's saying something).


    It would do absolutely nothing - there would maybe be a couple of crazy races, then a cookie cutter approach would win out and the situation would be that while the rules are "open", everyone will work to the same script.



    The problem is that what we're seeing are the effects of TECHNOLOGY, nothing else - each team uses the same cutting-edge mathematical models and simulation software. They have tonnes of data about every single nook and cranny, every movement or load on the car. And technology, for all the good it can do to the human condition, is the absolute enemy of enjoyment and inventiveness. Its ruthless efficiency leaves virtually no space for the little mistakes that create the opportunity for differentiation.



    Formula 1 used to be more unpredictable because the technology behind it was less efficient, square and simple; It left room for mistakes and left-field approaches. Now, it's no more - a computer will tell you what is the best way to do each thing.



    If you follow F1 since Senna's times, you should know this already - the early 1990s is when technology started taking over and the "cookie cutter" approach appeared; It is no more evident than in the engine formula - the "V10 era" wasn't something that was enforced by regulatons, it saw birth purely by R&D: it became increasingly clear that the V10 layout offered the best compromise between power, reliability and fuel consumption. By 1998, every single car on the grid was powered by a V10 (even Ford moved from their legendary V8s to V10s).

    Maybe you’re right.

    To be honest I’m just frustrated as it’s turned into a bit of a farce at this stage.

    The F2 shouldn’t be more enjoyable to watch but it is.


    Gotta say this - lower formulae, as well as touring car and certain other series (e.g. Indycar, Nascar) kind of always have been more "enjoyable" for the spectator than F1, simply by virtue of the less advanced technological content, leaving space for mistakes, upsets etc.




  • Only seeing the crash now. What's going on with the wheels, I thought they're tethered for that exact reason, how have we seen two or more come off in the last few races?




  • Agreed, the tech and over-reliance on aerodynamic grip, rather than mechanical, is a big part of the problem.

    For me the decline began with the introduction of grooved tyres in '98. True, it was a gradual decline, but it was a move that seemed to push us away from F1 being a crazy, men-of-steel type sport.




  • They could throw 2 things in very quickly that might help , but only in a tiny way and not at Monza
    classification from the last race only the top 10 get to go for Pole in Qual , below 10 you have your start position
    If you F up your starting at the back . (Your only as good as your last race ) and if your Like Gasly you earned your place in the top ten . Now try keep it .

    and there is no tire rules . Use what ever you want and as many as you want for all drivers. This sparing of the tires is annoying. If you have free tire choice you can do an awful lot but the gap between the tires has to be a bit more. The Red walls are fast but for too short a spell , and I could see no real difference between Hard and Meduim yesterday

    I think they should even be able mix and match tires Soft on the front hard on the back . What ever setup makes your car better on the tires provided for the weekend .


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  • That sounds great, but at the end of the day the teams have probably run hundreds of simulations and worked out that a one-stop (or two-stop as was the case two weeks ago) strategy of backing off by about 1-1.5s/lap to nurse the tyres is the best strategy.

    You just can't win; if you make the tyres softer so that a 2-stop around Spa/Monza/Sochi is viable you'll just get complaints about "bubblegum tyres" just like when Pirelli first entered the sport, but if you make the tyres harder, then we're back to 2010 with the rock-hard Bridgestones...or god forbid, the 2014 Russian GP when Rosberg made a set last 52 of the 53 laps.




  • 2011 wrote: »
    I think that Bottas has accepted being number 2 in the team.
    I have given up on him.

    Thank God for Max, not much else of interest in F1 these days.
    I think he has a real chance of second.
    I think if Max had a car equal in ability to the 98-99 Ferrari (in terms of distance from the best car) he would be challenging for the WDC. It's just a pity RBR can't give him that car.




  • I am more far the push the person in front , A silly thing from yesterday was DannyRic fastest lap , last lap of the race 4 seconds faster than Max doing the final lap , I know max was comfortable , but why the holding back for so long . If Danny Ric had pushed earlier , Max would have been forced to push more on Bottas ....maybe . Its the nursing and just doing enough that kills me.




  • AMKC wrote: »
    I don't envey Carlos Seinz going to Ferrari. I would say if he had of known how bad Ferrari were going to be this year he would have stayed putt. Absolutely a disgrace Ferrari are at the moment.

    Again another predictable race but at least it was not as dull as the spanish race. We had some midfield action here which was good Renault done great. I hope they keep it up. I predict Renault will be ahead of Ferrari in the Constuctors standings after next week.
    Ferrari is still the team every driver would like to sign for simply because of it's heritage in the sport so it's a great gig for Sainz because Ricciardo is the man who ought to have been given the drive. This current slump in form is likely to be temporary and a solution found for the engine problems before next year.




  • The start yesterday from Bottas' viewpoint. I was wondering why he didn't get a better run on Lewis, looks like lewis lifts slightly going into Eau Rouge.

    https://streamable.com/4mn502




  • Max looks pretty bored with how things are now. He' s generally driving around on his own in the races and for the born racer that he is, that must be incredibly frustrating and boring. The Mercedes are too far ahead of him to race and generally the rest are too far behind him. I can see why he said he war bored.




  • namloc1980 wrote: »
    Max looks pretty bored with how things are now. He' s generally driving around on his own in the races and for the born racer that he is, that must be incredibly frustrating and boring. The Mercedes are too far ahead of him to race and generally the rest are too far behind him. I can see why he said he war bored.

    Which has to make you wonder what Lewis is getting out it, apart from the shiny trophy. Does he genuinely think he's racing out there? I'd be bored off my tree driving around in circles with the nearest car nearly 10 seconds behind me for 2 hours.

    Last time after the obligatory "GET IN THERE LEWIS" he admitted that he zoned out for most of the race.




  • chicorytip wrote: »
    Ferrari is still the team every driver would like to sign for simply because of it's heritage in the sport so it's a great gig for Sainz because Ricciardo is the man who ought to have been given the drive. This current slump in form is likely to be temporary and a solution found for the engine problems before next year.

    I don't get this 'everyone want to drive for Ferrari'. The only people who say this are Ferrari fans. By right Williams and McLaren should also be getting some heritage payments like Ferrari do. Ferrari aren't around that much longer than either in the grand scheme of things.




  • H3llR4iser wrote: »
    The problem is that what we're seeing are the effects of TECHNOLOGY, nothing else - each team uses the same cutting-edge mathematical models and simulation software. They have tonnes of data about every single nook and cranny, every movement or load on the car. And technology, for all the good it can do to the human condition, is the absolute enemy of enjoyment and inventiveness. Its ruthless efficiency leaves virtually no space for the little mistakes that create the opportunity for differentiation.

    Formula 1 used to be more unpredictable because the technology behind it was less efficient, square and simple; It left room for mistakes and left-field approaches. Now, it's no more - a computer will tell you what is the best way to do each thing.

    This.

    Right now, we have a Formula where the driver is the least centric it has ever been.

    No driver on the grid is "out driving" their car, because the cars come more or less set up on the Friday to the track from all the simulations and number crunching done at eat factory. The racing is just to confirm the numbers, the driver drives to a target and you are golden. That, ladies and gents, is F1 now. A glorified simulation.

    We get the occasional change up (Silverstaone this year), but once Merc saw that, they ran data and had all kinds of meetings back at the factory to make sure that they got to the root of the problem.

    Is that racing at all?

    This, to me at least, is why I can't really feel excited or interested in F1 anymore. I wrote up a big post about how Merc planned for these rules long before anyone started work on them. I sound like a bitter old fool when I talk about this, but they threatened to leave F1 if the rules did not switch to what we have now, which they had a 4 year head start on. Lewis is a great driver but it is REALLY hard for me to feel excited about his achievements when Merc basically shoehorned their agenda to F1 and throw the kitchen sink at it. It is sterile, predictable and utterly devoid of entertainment, and I stand by that. At least one of Schumachers "dominant" years involved a 3-way battle to the last race in 2003.

    The last season I can remember when a driver worked miracles in a car to get results was Alonso in 2012, at least that is the one that stands out to me. Other ones would be Schumacher 1997 and 1998, Kimi 2007 maybe too?

    F1 has let one manufacturer exercise a technical muscle over the sport to fully suit its technology and agenda, and the FIA or rule makers are sitting on their balls and doing nothing. Shame on them.




  • recyclebin wrote: »
    I don't get this 'everyone want to drive for Ferrari'. The only people who say this are Ferrari fans. By right Williams and McLaren should also be getting some heritage payments like Ferrari do. Ferrari aren't around that much longer than either in the grand scheme of things.


    It's basically a cultural relevance issue - outside the racetracks, it can be argued that Ferrari were a "brand" well before the whole modern marketing concept of "brand" was created. Inside the racetracks, Ferrari have pretty much always been involved in motorsports since their beginnings as an Alfa Romeo team - and are the one and only outfit that has been in each single F1 championship since its inception.



    Go to any F1 race anywhere, and at least 50% of the spectators (when they're allowed in...) will be wearing a Ferrari shirt, cap or have a flag. When Ferrari is at the front, F1 popularity soars pretty much anywhere - even if they're dominating 2002 style. It's not the significance of Ferrari in F1, it's their significance as a symbol of motorsport and a manufacturer of dream cars - the ones on the posters on kid's bedrooms. A modern marketer would say they are a "lifestyle icon".



    In automotive terms, there are a few brands that can come close or match Ferrari's significance - Alfa Romeo, Mercedes and Porsche; But they all either have been coming and going into F1 depending on their marketing needs and, in the case of both Porsche and Alfa Romeo, didn't really put in any serious efforts since the 1950s (heck, Porsche didn't even want their name associated with the McLaren engines in 1984 initially, fearing bad publicity if they turned out to be terrible).


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  • I get why the average man on the street would want to drive for Ferrari but from Sainz perspective it is already looking like a big mistake. Ricciardo jumping from Red Bull to Renault to McLaren is also risky.




  • McLaren current trajectory, paired with a Mercedes-Benz engine. I think they'll leap frog Red Bull next year.




  • Yeah, kudos to Ricciardo if next year he's leaving Max in his wake!




  • astrofluff wrote: »
    Yeah, kudos to Ricciardo if next year he's leaving Max in his wake!

    Well at least Max might have someone to race next year if the McLaren Mercedes does not outright leapfrog them they should at least be on a level playing field.




  • That would be good, Three way battle for the third podium spot , Renault , Mclaren and Redbull . ( yes harsh ) . It least it would create a better "second Tier" and at least challange on some race tracks . But as ever its the Hope that kills you .




  • I've been watching F1 since I was a kid but over the last few years I've been looking forward to watching F2 instead of F1




  • flazio wrote: »
    McLaren current trajectory, paired with a Mercedes-Benz engine. I think they'll leap frog Red Bull next year.
    Which would also be bad for the sport, as it's unlikely a mercedes customer team could beat the works team.


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