Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

Quin_Dub

Manic Moran wrote: »

Rooftop Koreans disagree with you. So do a few business owners from this year in places like Atlanta and San Antonio.

It may not be their lives they are being deprived of, but it often is their livelihoods or their life’s work. There is a reason that they are often shown distraught after having received the attentions of looters. Who are rioters or looters to destroy the lives of others?

Indeed , and had the guys with guns in Kenosha been on the roof of properties or even on Private property carrying out that defence then the story would be a bit different I suspect.

However they weren't, they were out on the public streets walking around acting as a "para-military" force.

I suspect that that difference might be crucial in any upcoming legal proceedings.

Potatoeman

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Indeed , and had the guys with guns in Kenosha been on the roof of properties or even on Private property carrying out that defence then the story would be a bit different I suspect.

However they weren't, they were out on the public streets walking around acting as a "para-military" force.

I suspect that that difference might be crucial in any upcoming legal proceedings.

Or crossing state lines with an automatic weapon on a public street like Rittenhouse.

Carfacemandog

Potatoeman wrote: »

Or crossing state lines with an automatic weapon on a public street like Rittenhouse.

Rittenhouse is claiming he didn't cross state lines with the gun, which then brings up the question of where he got it and who is supplying people with AR15s to roam the streets with.

Potatoeman

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Rittenhouse is claiming he didn't cross state lines with the gun, which then brings up the question of where he got it and who is supplying people with AR15s to roam the streets with.

Has to be registered, if it’s not then that’s even more charges.

Dyr

Manic Moran wrote: »

Rooftop Koreans disagree with you. So do a few business owners from this year in places like Atlanta and San Antonio.

It may not be their lives they are being deprived of, but it often is their livelihoods or their life’s work. There is a reason that they are often shown distraught after having received the attentions of looters. Who are rioters or looters to destroy the lives of others?

The National Guard needs a Rooftop Korean regiment in each state

GreeBo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It's a different circumstance, the officer didn't feel it was sufficiently threatening of a situation presumably.

So when he said "I'll fúcking kill you" that wasnt a threat?

GreeBo

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I'm confused, is he threatening people like Kyle or BLM?

AbusesToilets

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Like a skateboard?

Or a fist, or a can of soup in a bag. More people per year are killed in the US by fists than rifles, FYI

Retr0gamer

What about protesters that turn up with tins of soup?

Potatoeman

Retr0gamer wrote: »

What about protesters that turn up with tins of soup?

They get thrown in the can.

Carfacemandog

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm confused, is he threatening people like Kyle or BLM?

Given his connections to, promotions of, and speaking at events hosted by militias with significant white supremacist ties, there's not really any way to take this other than this being directed exclusively at the likes of black militias while also supporting white ones.

Facebook are known to leave stuff up that other social media sites don't, that they were quick to take this down is pretty telling, all things considered. It's pretty clearly trying to incite violence and race bait.

briany

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Indeed , and had the guys with guns in Kenosha been on the roof of properties or even on Private property carrying out that defence then the story would be a bit different I suspect.

However they weren't, they were out on the public streets walking around acting as a "para-military" force.

I suspect that that difference might be crucial in any upcoming legal proceedings.

You get the feeling with the roof Koreans that they didn't exactly relish their task and would have much preferred that no riots were happening and it was just a usual business day.

The militia types on the other hand, considering the amount of crowing and braggadocio they engage in, it seems like they'll take any old excuse to get stuck in.

GreeBo

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Given his connections to, promotions of, and speaking at events hosted by militias with significant white supremacist ties, there's not really any way to take this other than this being directed exclusively at the likes of black militias while also supporting white ones.

Facebook are known to leave stuff up that other social media sites don't, that they were quick to take this down is pretty telling, all things considered. It's pretty clearly trying to incite violence and race bait.

Its strange though, as he says they will target people coming into their town armed, which is exactly what Mr Kyle did.

Quin_Dub

briany wrote: »

You get the feeling with the roof Koreans that they didn't exactly relish their task and would have much preferred that no riots were happening and it was just a usual business day.

The militia types on the other hand, considering the amount of crowing and braggadocio they engage in, it seems like they'll take any old excuse to get stuck in.

Indeed.

Standing guard in or on Private Property = Legitimate Property defence , probably covered by Castle Doctrine type laws.

Wandering the Streets with a weapon is NOT that. It's vigilantism.

AbusesToilets

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Indeed.

Standing guard in or on Private Property = Legitimate Property defence , probably covered by Castle Doctrine type laws.

Wandering the Streets with a weapon is NOT that. It's vigilantism.

I would agree with you, however seems a touch inaccurate to describe Rittenhouse as wandering the streets. From what I understand, he and the rest were positioned at the location (car dealership) deliberately.

Carfacemandog

GreeBo wrote: »

Its strange though, as he says they will target people coming into their town armed, which is exactly what Mr Kyle did.

It's a simple attempt at intimidation, otherwise he would not be intentionally showing one of the only black militias in the pictures below. His support and promotion of of white supremacist militias only backs that up further, and had this been targeted at Rittenhouse etc, he wouldn't have made sure to find a photo of one of the only black militias (who have also protested on the Breonna Taylor murder and been linked with, but deny any connection to, BLM) out of the many, many ones in the US which are almost all close to exclusively white.

When looking him up, I also found out why he is no longer a cop - he had to resign for unnecessary force used against (drum-roll) a black guy: https://www.bayoubrief.com/2020/07/13/after-using-unnecessary-force-against-an-unarmed-black-man-he-turned-in-his-badge-now-hes-a-two-term-congressman/

Basically, if you're looking to join a militia in Louisiana and are on "his side" Clay Higgins is all for it and will even point you towards white supremacist ones which he is well connected with. If you're not however, he's straight up threatening to murder you. Which isn't surprising given the Oath Keepers and 3 Percenters to which he keeps such close ties have a history of threatening to murder people they disagree with, including long time US Senator John McCain.

Quin_Dub

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I would agree with you, however seems a touch inaccurate to describe Rittenhouse as wandering the streets. From what I understand, he and the rest were positioned at the location (car dealership) deliberately.

Perhaps. but they were not positioned on Private Property , they were on a public street.

That removes the use of the "castle doctrine" as a defence.

AbusesToilets

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Perhaps. but they were not positioned on Private Property , they were on a public street.

That removes the use of the "castle doctrine" as a defence.

I'll be interested in how that aspect plays out. Could set an important precedent

Manic Moran

Potatoeman wrote: »

Has to be registered, if it’s not then that’s even more charges.

Where are you getting that from? As a general rule, Wisconsin doesn't have a registration requirement.

I'm also not aware of any relevant laws prohibiting short-term carriage of firearms across state lines. I do it not infrequently myself.

I'll be interested in how that aspect plays out. Could set an important precedent

I don't see why. It's not relevant.

Potatoeman

Police shot and killed Michael Reinoehl trying to arrest him. He’s the white guy that shot and killed the Trump supporter in Portland. He said it was self defence in a Vice interview, think it was filmed though. Anyone know what happened?

Water John

Mot much detail on that yet, This is the most I have on it. He seems to have been armed. Hope the officers had body cams. He seems to have done an interview with Vice.

Brian?

Potatoeman wrote: »

Police shot and killed Michael Reinoehl trying to arrest him. He’s the white guy that shot and killed the Trump supporter in Portland. He said it was self defence in a Vice interview, think it was filmed though. Anyone know what happened?

I'd love to hear from the posters who parrot the nonsense about the Portland PD giving Antifa et al a free ride.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

I'd love to hear from the posters who parrot the nonsense about the Portland PD giving Antifa et al a free ride.

It's not a complete banana republic. Suspected murder can't be ignored like rioting, looting, blocking roads, assaulting people, arson and robbery can.

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Jesus 30-40 shots fired at that fella from 4 officers

there is your "Law and Order" Trump supporters

Revenge execution killings in a mob style for someone who was defending himself from crazy people

Some of you are watching too many films where one shot is all it takes to neutralise a threat.

Simple bit of advice if any of you go to America. Comply with the police and don't shoot at or threaten them.

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Now lets apply same logic to the young fella who travelled to another town and shot several people. Why does he not have 30-40 bullet holes in him?

Because he wasnt shooting at the police, he handed himself in.

Brian?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's not a complete banana republic. Suspected murder can't be ignored like rioting, looting, blocking roads, assaulting people, arson and robbery can.

None of those things are ignored.

Manic Moran

Brian? wrote: »

I'd love to hear from the posters who parrot the nonsense about the Portland PD giving Antifa et al a free ride.

They were federal marshals as he was in a different State. Little reason to believe, though, that Portland PD would or would not have done anything else in a similar situation.

Remains to be seen if there will be any footage. Until a year ago, Feds generally had a policy against bodycams, a pilot program starting only October of last year. I don't know if there is widespread use of them yet. That said, there may be other surveillance video.

Brian?

Manic Moran wrote: »

They were federal marshals as he was in a different State. Little reason to believe, though, that Portland PD would or would not have done anything else in a similar situation.

Remains to be seen if there will be any footage. Until a year ago, Feds generally had a policy against bodycams, a pilot program starting only October of last year. I don't know if there is widespread use of them yet. That said, there may be other surveillance video.

Why were federal marshals arresting someone who wasn't wanted for a federal crime? I find it strange that Portland PD weren't there.

I know the FBI can't operate without the approval local police, is the same not true for the Marshalls?

Quin_Dub

Brian? wrote: »

Why were federal marshals arresting someone who wasn't wanted for a federal crime? I find it strange that Portland PD weren't there.

I know the FBI can't operate without the approval local police, is the same not true for the Marshalls?

As I understand it , the Marshals are used when someone is a fugitive from a warrant or if said person has crossed state lines.

I think in this case he had crossed State lines

Manic Moran

Portland, Oregon PD has no jurisdiction in the State of Washington.

There are two ways for a local PD to obtain service of warrants on folks out of state. The first is if they know that the guy in question is at an address in, say, Washington, they can submit an extradition request, the Olympia PD or whoever then go to the address, arrest the bloke, then it goes through the court extradition proceedings for handoff. This is what happened with Rittenhouse. They knew where he was, was arrested by Aurora, Illinois police, and the extradition process to Wisconsin is currently working its way through the courts. (Court has implemented a months' delay on the extradition for procedural reasons).

The other is if they are fairly sure the guy's gone out of jurisdiction but they don't know exactly where, they put a request in to the Feds. One of the functions of the US Marshal's Service is to assist local law enforcement in the location and arrest of persons. The feds make the arrest, and I believe immediately hand over the arrestee to the requesting agency.

https://archive.naplesnews.com/news/local/in-the-know-when-do-us-marshals-get-involved-in-local-cases-ep-387831181-342432981.html/
"A lot of people don't even know we exist," said John Kinsey, a deputy U.S. marshal with the U.S. Marshals Florida/Caribbean Regional Fugitive Task Force. "We're not jumping off of trains and chasing people through the swamp every day."

It's true that U.S. Marshals are involved in federal crimes and witness protection, but their duties include a lot more. The U.S. Marshals Service also conducts domestic and international fugitive investigations, plans and implements the extradition and deportation of fugitives, conducts financial and technical surveillance on specific fugitive investigations, and even serves court papers, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

"Our main objective is to service the federal courts," Kinsey said.

Marshals also are assigned by the U.S. attorney general to help local law enforcement agencies, Kinsey said. Involvement with the recent Lee County case falls under the U.S. Marshals' duties to work closely on fugitive task forces and special cases with local, state, federal and international law enforcement agencies.

"Basically, what it does is give the local guy a longer arm. It also gives them extra manpower," said Lee County sheriff's spokeswoman Sgt. Stephanie Eller.

In addition to manpower, especially for the long hours required for surveillance of crime suspects, U.S. Marshals also support local law enforcement agencies by providing additional equipment and funding, said Kinsey.

There may also be funding issues. The one time I wrote an arrest warrant, it was later pointed out to me that I obligated the spending of money to pay the responding agency (Carson City PD) for their time and costs of transport to deliver the arrestee to me 70 miles (and 90 minutes) away. Funding paths and amounts may be different for paying for extradition vs requesting federal support.

Anyone see the video doing the rounds of the two cops and a guy in a yellow t shirt. The guy is coming at them with a gun or knife or something, the cops shoot him multiple times yet he is still coming at them. Manages to overpower one of the cops and get him in a headlock before the other cop comes in and shoots him again ending the attack.

It is a clear demonstration of just how dangerous some of these situations cops face and how difficult it can be to stop people.

Water John

So police should carry M8s to make sure?

rossie1977

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone see the video doing the rounds of the two cops and a guy in a yellow t shirt. The guy is coming at them with a gun or knife or something, the cops shoot him multiple times yet he is still coming at them. Manages to overpower one of the cops and get him in a headlock before the other cop comes in and shoots him again ending the attack.

It is a clear demonstration of just how dangerous some of these situations cops face and how difficult it can be to stop people.

Not what this thread is about. For every incident like that there are 10 of police shooting an unarmed person or using over the top reactions to incidents like this. Imagine threatening to shoot a family over a child taking a $1 toy

Manic Moran

M8?

Not sure when this went up, but from a non-lawyer, non-media, non-politician person, this is probably the best, most accurate and balanced assessment of the Rittenhouse/Kenosha shooting. I might quibble with one or two things, but 'best' doesn't have to be 'perfect'.

https://www.bullshido.net/anatomy-of-a-catastrophe/

There are a lot of opinions floating around about Kyle Rittenhouse and his actions. Normally when we have an emotionally charged series of events like those surrounding young Mister Rittenhouse, the first and most immediate of these opinions can be quickly parsed into a few easy-to-comprehend categories. You have shrieking partisans, useful idiots, and raging assholes. Reasoned views addressing the complexity of the underlying issues tend not to come until much later because reasoning requires facts and objectivity. Both of which tend to be in short supply for the first forty-eight hours or so.

What makes the Rittenhouse incident so interesting is that virtually every expletive-laden opinion surrounding his actions and the actions of the involved parties has an objective truth at its hate-filled heart. That is a rare thing, and it baked my noodle pretty good when I noticed this ridiculous coincidence. Whatever your opinion of what happened in Kenosha, there is probably a solid factual foundation justifying it. I stewed on that for a while before a potential reason for this formed in my head. Are you ready?

Everyone involved in and around this tragedy is a f***g moron.

He then breaks down each failure in the chain of stupidity. Like an airplane accident, it takes multiple things going wrong.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

So police should carry M8s to make sure?

I dont know what an m8 is. But if I was back in America it wouldn't bother me what they were carrying because I comply with police direction.

FrostyJack

Deleted User wrote: »

Some of you are watching too many films where one shot is all it takes to neutralise a threat.

Simple bit of advice if any of you go to America. Comply with the police and don't shoot at or threaten them.

It is reported on some sites, that eye withness's said it was a hit by the police, they just straight up murdered him. With things like this there is always a narrative by both sides. Hopefully we will get more details.

Brian?

rossie1977 wrote: »

Not what this thread is about. For every incident like that there are 10 of police shooting an unarmed person or using over the top reactions to incidents like this. Imagine threatening to shoot a family over a child taking a $1 toy

That's absolutely disgusting. The worst part for me was the cop at the end shouting at the woman to put the child down. As a parent, this is really upsetting to watch.

Admittedly the cops who rolled in towards the end were trying their best to calm everything down, but what happened up to then was a disgrace.

On a personal note, it looks exactly like the Apartment complex I used to live in in Chandler, which is a suburb of Phoenix.

Water John

Sorry meant M15, the Americans poor version of a AK -47.

FrostyJack

Water John wrote: »

Sorry meant M15, the Americans poor version of a AK -47.

M-16 ? Car- 15?

Brian? wrote:

That's absolutely disgusting. The worst part for me was the cop at the end shouting at the woman to put the child down. As a parent, this is really upsetting to watch.

Admittedly the cops who rolled in towards the end were trying their best to calm everything down, but what happened up to then was a disgrace.

On a personal note, it looks exactly like the Apartment complex I used to live in in Chandler, which is a suburb of Phoenix.

That is the exact type of person that should not be a cop.

Brian?

Water John wrote: »

Sorry meant M15, the Americans poor version of a AK -47.

AR15?

Water John

I didn't want to ref that gun because of its recent use. The M 16 really is the one I meant to reference, jungle assault rifle.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I dont know what an m8 is. But if I was back in America it wouldn't bother me what they were carrying because I comply with police direction.

Plenty of people dead in the state's that have complied with police direction. The over militarisation if the police and the trained in mentality that everyone is your enemy training which comes from military contractors means no one's ever real safe. And many less safe than others due to their skin or appearance.

At no point should one be smug where there is aggressive extremely poorly trained trigger happy people given a badge a gun and a car in weeks from sign-up.

eldamo

listermint wrote: »

Plenty of people dead in the state's that have complied with police direction. The over militarisation if the police and the trained in mentality that everyone is your enemy training which comes from military contractors means no one's ever real safe. And many less safe than others due to their skin or appearance.

At no point should one be smug where there is aggressive extremely poorly trained trigger happy people given a badge a gun and a car in weeks from sign-up.

There is a horrid video doing the rounds of a white guy being ordered out of hotel room by screaming cops who want him to crawl on his belly with his hands in the air, when he fails to comply with these confusing orders, he is shot dead.

Seems just best not to cross paths with law enforcement over there.

Shooting of Daniel Shaver

Carfacemandog

"Doing the rounds" isnt all that accurate given if happened over 4 and a half years ago, with the video coming out 3 and and a half years ago. It might ring bells that it was the one where the cop had "you're f*cked" engraved in his AR15 that he used to kill Shaver with.

The police department released an edited version during the trial, and only the full video a few hours after the cop had been acquitted.

I do mainly agree though - as much as I think there are systemic issues regarding racism among some cops (and literal racist gangs with in police departments, as per federal judges, like the 3000 Boys, Jump Out Boys and Lynwood Vikings) the larger issue is the militarized, Judge Dredd type mentality of a good number of police officers who seem to view themselves as above the law, able to do what they want, and answerable to nobody whose job is less to do with keeping the peace and more to do with squashing anyone who gets in their way.

Together, that's an outrageously bad mix.

Manic Moran

Another example as to why police don't like to mess around was released today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSa2EomQAbA

Pulled over for a traffic infraction, no license, no insurance, expired registration. Car to be towed. After being patient for nearly ten minutes, then tasing once, pepper sprayed twice, and in the middle of a struggle, the man managed to shoot one cop dead, the other critically wounded. My guess is that after ten minutes of arguing and the driver playing the idiot, the cops let their guard down thinking the suspect to be unarmed.

Retr0gamer

Manic Moran wrote: »

Another example as to why police don't like to mess around was released today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSa2EomQAbA

Pulled over for a traffic infraction, no license, no insurance, expired registration. Car to be towed. After being patient for nearly ten minutes, then tasing once, pepper sprayed twice, and in the middle of a struggle, the man managed to shoot one cop dead, the other critically wounded. My guess is that after ten minutes of arguing and the driver playing the idiot, the cops let their guard down thinking the suspect to be unarmed.

Thanks for more useless anecdotal evidence

eldamo

Manic Moran wrote: »

Another example as to why police don't like to mess around was released today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSa2EomQAbA

Pulled over for a traffic infraction, no license, no insurance, expired registration. Car to be towed. After being patient for nearly ten minutes, then tasing once, pepper sprayed twice, and in the middle of a struggle, the man managed to shoot one cop dead, the other critically wounded. My guess is that after ten minutes of arguing and the driver playing the idiot, the cops let their guard down thinking the suspect to be unarmed.

That is pretty scary alright. Being a cop in america is not a job I would ever want to have.


David Anthony Ware is pleading not guilty and his legal team were the ones that wanted that video released ( I can't see much that helps them)

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/defense-wants-video-released-that-shows-officers-being-shot-during-traffic-stop/article_38c89dbe-a12e-537d-b35f-94744915947c.html


They show police videos like this as part of their training, this is obviously necessary, but clearly could put the fear of god into you out on the beat.

This is the video I had in mind from a traffic stop in georgia in 1998
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mssNOhv1UMc


America is screwed with it's proliferation of firearms, you just never know who you are going to be faced with when you pull someone over.

A lot of officers are just not suited to the job for a variety of reasons. The extremes of being so scared you will shoot someone at the first twitch and those who just want to be judge dredd out there blasting away.


It is hard to tell in individual cases, but I do think the police need to stop defending the indefensible and hold their hands up and make an example of their own when they are clearly in the wrong, not the usual dirty tricks of losing body cam footage and trying to undermine the person who has been shot.


This should be an open and shut case, the civilian in this case escalated something simple, had that gun to hand, called a getaway vehicle.


You can debate that he might not have been given the time to behave like this if he had been a different ethnicity, but we know nothing of these officers character to claim that.

Sorry, this is all a bit wishy washy, you might ask why I would bother posting on here if I don't have a strong opinion that I definitely feel confident on. This is just a complex and multi layered and horrible situation.

Never let guns get into our small island to the extent that they have them over there.

GreeBo

Manic Moran wrote: »

Another example as to why police don't like to mess around was released today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSa2EomQAbA

Pulled over for a traffic infraction, no license, no insurance, expired registration. Car to be towed. After being patient for nearly ten minutes, then tasing once, pepper sprayed twice, and in the middle of a struggle, the man managed to shoot one cop dead, the other critically wounded. My guess is that after ten minutes of arguing and the driver playing the idiot, the cops let their guard down thinking the suspect to be unarmed.

Thats the job though, right?
I mean the other option is that you shoot first and ask questions later.

Overheal

Manic Moran wrote: »

Another example as to why police don't like to mess around was released today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSa2EomQAbA

Pulled over for a traffic infraction, no license, no insurance, expired registration. Car to be towed. After being patient for nearly ten minutes, then tasing once, pepper sprayed twice, and in the middle of a struggle, the man managed to shoot one cop dead, the other critically wounded. My guess is that after ten minutes of arguing and the driver playing the idiot, the cops let their guard down thinking the suspect to be unarmed.

Well that settles it, cops should just shoot people and let god sort it out yeah

Manic Moran

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Thanks for more useless anecdotal evidence

No more or less anecdotal than videos of what appears to be unnecessary escalation of force by police. If we are going to use actual, albeit rare examples of police abuse of force as a basis for discussion (or protest), it is not unreasonable to frame it in the context of actual, albeit rare examples of how things go lethal for the police in in the blink of an eye in confrontations.

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats the job though, right?
I mean the other option is that you shoot first and ask questions later.

Well, there is the medium position of using more force than Europeans (for example) might be comfortable with but which results in all parties surviving to the end of the day. After all, you can also say "That's just the risks of the job" for criminals who end up getting shot as well, if you want to take that perspectice.