New PO- Advice on joining Civil Service

NewbeeePO

First time poster here. Joining the service as a PO in 2 or possibly 3 months depending on how the panel moves- Just waiting on the call from PAS at present.

Nervous and excited in equal measure, have done a fair bit of reading into transitioning into new jobs, first 100 days etc. I have never worked in the Civil Service- mostly private sector with some time in a voluntary organisation.

Looking for any advice existing CS staff can share in relation to the culture.

Specifically,

- How to address more senior staff members in email / informally in conversation- is it ok to use their first name- I've also noticed in dealing with PAS, emails tend to be prefaced just with the recipients firstname as in
XXX,
I refer to YYY - no 'Hi XXX' or 'Dear XXX'- this would be a bit different to the other organisations I've worked in.
- In order to build a network, is it ok to reach out and get to know people in other sections/divisions outside of your immediate reports and line manager. For example, would it be considered odd to invite a peer PO in a different section which has an overlap with your own area for coffee to get to understand their role better or would this be considered unusual.
- As a non CS entrant at a senior grade like PO, what supports/ induction process would be usual, and how before you're typically expected to be fully self- sufficient- days/ weeks/ months. For example, if you've begun a new role as say an AP or PO, how often would you meet your line manager in the initial period.
- Any do's and don't's you can think of- particular anxious not to commit an avoidable faux pas early on as I learn the culture and decision making systems
- Any specific documents that are useful to be reading now to get acclimatised.
- Is there a social aspect to the job?

Many thanks for any advice/guidance you can share

Newb

Augme

You'd be better off waiting to ask these questions to the HR department you are assigned to. From my experience departments can be quite different in culture in a number of the areas you mentioned so it isn't a case that all civil service is the same.

I know Departments who would be very informal email wise and you'd just use the first name or even just a hi.

In generally reaching out to people is fine, I've never heard anything different but naturally some people would be more open to an offer then others. But you'll get an idea on this once you start.

In generally I would say not to worry about it. The civil service is generally fairly relaxed and the nature of it is very slow. You'll be fine and will be given plenty of time to get up to speed. My advice would be to sit back and learn for the first while rather than going in with an attitude of hitting the ground running or stamping your name across things etc.

Glinda

Hi Newbee,

In relation to your specific questions i've put a few thoughts below. But if you need some impartial support in the first few weeks after you start, feel free to drop me a PM and I'll happily help out where i can.

- How to address more senior staff members in email / informally in conversation- is it ok to use their first name- I've also noticed in dealing with PAS, emails tend to be prefaced just with the recipients firstname as in
XXX,
I refer to YYY - no 'Hi XXX' or 'Dear XXX'- this would be a bit different to the other organisations I've worked in.

This depends. For anyone internal of the same grade or below, first name is fine. Hi XXX, would be less formal and more friendly, so use that one when you either know the person well or definitely want to be friendly/informal.

In general, I'd also use first names for anyone inside the organisation who is more senior, unless I'm being really formal, or unless emailing the Sec Gen or the Minister. Some Sec Gen's prefer first names, but again it depends on the content of the email too, so that's one you just have to sound out when you get there. Secretary General is the formal title. The Minister is always 'Minister', never anything else, even in person. Dail deputies are always Deputy XXX, Senators are Senator XXX, even when speaking.
Depending on where you are you'll have more or less dealings with the political side - if you're running an operational area that aspect will be limited, but if you're in a policy or legislative role it could be significant. Anyone outside, i'd address by Mr, Ms, Dr, etc., at least at first and until I know we are on first name terms.


- In order to build a network, is it ok to reach out and get to know people in other sections/divisions outside of your immediate reports and line manager. For example, would it be considered odd to invite a peer PO in a different section which has an overlap with your own area for coffee to get to understand their role better or would this be considered unusual.
Other POs in general will be very friendly. If this came up naturally, it would be fine. Emailing someone you've never met asking them for coffee might be a little weird. People are nice though, and unless you're somewhere very isolated you'll have no problem in this regard.

- As a non CS entrant at a senior grade like PO, what supports/ induction process would be usual, and how before you're typically expected to be fully self- sufficient- days/ weeks/ months. For example, if you've begun a new role as say an AP or PO, how often would you meet your line manager in the initial period.

In my experience, in terms of induction or supports, almost none. This is a very senior grade, and you'll be expected to be up to speed almost straight away. an organised handover of responsibilities is very rare, and the most likely scenario is that either there's been a vacancy in your role for a while (months) or it's a newly created role nobody has done before. Have a really good chat with your ASec and make sure you understand what they are expecting from you. It's not a role where you'll have your hand held or be supervised to any great degree, you'll be expected to solve your own problems (or at least be able to suggest solutions) and while most people will be cooperative, the division or section will be your responsibility and your domain.
Having said that, you've passed all the assessments, so your situational judgement must be good :P and most of it is knowing what to handle yourself, what to delegate, and when to seek guidance.

- Any do's and don't's you can think of- particular anxious not to commit an avoidable faux pas early on as I learn the culture and decision making systems
Be friendly with your team, but don't forget you're the leader and not a team member, so not one of the lads. Don't waste your time trying to ingratiate yourself by doing work that's not your responsibility - figure out as fast as you can what your key senior management responsibilities are and concentrate as hard as you can on those. Keep an eye on cues from your ASec and adjust quickly according to feedback from them. Big cultural thing around being polite too, even when you're not necessarily being nice.

Also, senior people in the CS are generally very quiet about titles and qualifications. So don't assume anyone you deal with is less qualified or less educated than you are - they are very likely not to mention their quals or title. There are of course a few that are quite forward about these things, but in general that just makes people uncomfortable and is seen as embarrassing and 'not done'. When/if you do something remarkable, the people who need to know will know, it's not the done thing to draw attention - you'll be more appreciated for being understatedly fabulous :P. (I remember one scenario where someone came to introduce themselves to me when I was new in a role, and told me in the first two sentences that they had a degree. Myself and the other person in the room had four degrees between us. Nobody said a word, but we both thought he was a twat).


- Any specific documents that are useful to be reading now to get acclimatised. This probably needs to wait until you have an idea where you're going. When you know, if there's been any big scandal in that area, read the report!

- Is there a social aspect to the job? I think people have different experiences. I see the poster above said the pace is slow, I would say the exact opposite. For the first year, I would expect you'll be knackered by the speed, once you've figured out enough to be useful, and potentially pulling some very long hours with limited time or energy for anything else. But there's a great social side, once you settle in, mainly with other people who are having the same experiences you are.

Good luck, and maybe when you have some idea of the general area you're moving to, post here and people will be able to give a little more info.

AndrewJRenko

Glinda wrote: »

Hi Newbee,

In relation to your specific questions i've put a few thoughts below. But if you need some impartial support in the first few weeks after you start, feel free to drop me a PM and I'll happily help out where i can.

- How to address more senior staff members in email / informally in conversation- is it ok to use their first name- I've also noticed in dealing with PAS, emails tend to be prefaced just with the recipients firstname as in
XXX,
I refer to YYY - no 'Hi XXX' or 'Dear XXX'- this would be a bit different to the other organisations I've worked in.

This depends. For anyone internal of the same grade or below, first name is fine. Hi XXX, would be less formal and more friendly, so use that one when you either know the person well or definitely want to be friendly/informal.

In general, I'd also use first names for anyone inside the organisation who is more senior, unless I'm being really formal, or unless emailing the Sec Gen or the Minister. Some Sec Gen's prefer first names, but again it depends on the content of the email too, so that's one you just have to sound out when you get there. Secretary General is the formal title. The Minister is always 'Minister', never anything else, even in person. Dail deputies are always Deputy XXX, Senators are Senator XXX, even when speaking.
Depending on where you are you'll have more or less dealings with the political side - if you're running an operational area that aspect will be limited, but if you're in a policy or legislative role it could be significant. Anyone outside, i'd address by Mr, Ms, Dr, etc., at least at first and until I know we are on first name terms.


- In order to build a network, is it ok to reach out and get to know people in other sections/divisions outside of your immediate reports and line manager. For example, would it be considered odd to invite a peer PO in a different section which has an overlap with your own area for coffee to get to understand their role better or would this be considered unusual.
Other POs in general will be very friendly. If this came up naturally, it would be fine. Emailing someone you've never met asking them for coffee might be a little weird. People are nice though, and unless you're somewhere very isolated you'll have no problem in this regard.

- As a non CS entrant at a senior grade like PO, what supports/ induction process would be usual, and how before you're typically expected to be fully self- sufficient- days/ weeks/ months. For example, if you've begun a new role as say an AP or PO, how often would you meet your line manager in the initial period.

In my experience, in terms of induction or supports, almost none. This is a very senior grade, and you'll be expected to be up to speed almost straight away. an organised handover of responsibilities is very rare, and the most likely scenario is that either there's been a vacancy in your role for a while (months) or it's a newly created role nobody has done before. Have a really good chat with your ASec and make sure you understand what they are expecting from you. It's not a role where you'll have your hand held or be supervised to any great degree, you'll be expected to solve your own problems (or at least be able to suggest solutions) and while most people will be cooperative, the division or section will be your responsibility and your domain.
Having said that, you've passed all the assessments, so your situational judgement must be good :P and most of it is knowing what to handle yourself, what to delegate, and when to seek guidance.

- Any do's and don't's you can think of- particular anxious not to commit an avoidable faux pas early on as I learn the culture and decision making systems
Be friendly with your team, but don't forget you're the leader and not a team member, so not one of the lads. Don't waste your time trying to ingratiate yourself by doing work that's not your responsibility - figure out as fast as you can what your key senior management responsibilities are and concentrate as hard as you can on those. Keep an eye on cues from your ASec and adjust quickly according to feedback from them. Big cultural thing around being polite too, even when you're not necessarily being nice.

Also, senior people in the CS are generally very quiet about titles and qualifications. So don't assume anyone you deal with is less qualified or less educated than you are - they are very likely not to mention their quals or title. There are of course a few that are quite forward about these things, but in general that just makes people uncomfortable and is seen as embarrassing and 'not done'. When/if you do something remarkable, the people who need to know will know, it's not the done thing to draw attention - you'll be more appreciated for being understatedly fabulous :P. (I remember one scenario where someone came to introduce themselves to me when I was new in a role, and told me in the first two sentences that they had a degree. Myself and the other person in the room had four degrees between us. Nobody said a word, but we both thought he was a twat).


- Any specific documents that are useful to be reading now to get acclimatised. This probably needs to wait until you have an idea where you're going. When you know, if there's been any big scandal in that area, read the report!

- Is there a social aspect to the job? I think people have different experiences. I see the poster above said the pace is slow, I would say the exact opposite. For the first year, I would expect you'll be knackered by the speed, once you've figured out enough to be useful, and potentially pulling some very long hours with limited time or energy for anything else. But there's a great social side, once you settle in, mainly with other people who are having the same experiences you are.

Good luck, and maybe when you have some idea of the general area you're moving to, post here and people will be able to give a little more info.

Great advice indeed. Just one clarification on the highlighted point above, you would definitely default to 'Minister' but there are Ministers who insist on being called by their first name. I can think of one current (and very senior) Minister and one former Minister of State, but I'm sure there are more.

So start out with Minister, but be prepared to go first-names if the person tells you.

SFC1895

Great advice from Glinda above there.


In relation to



- Any specific documents that are useful to be reading now to get acclimatised.

For this, once you know your assignment, I would seek out Departmental strategy statements, business plans, any programme for Govt commitments. This might give a good overview and direction of your new Department. If you're going to an Agency, Tribunal etc, check out their 2019 annual report.


In addition, have a look on the Oireachtas website for Parliamentary Questions that your new Dept/Minister is being asked - this will give an insight into what are the live/politically sensitive issues.

NewbeeePO

Glinda wrote: »

Hi Newbee,

In relation to your specific questions i've put a few thoughts below. But if you need some impartial support in the first few weeks after you start, feel free to drop me a PM and I'll happily help out where i can.

- How to address more senior staff members in email / informally in conversation- is it ok to use their first name- I've also noticed in dealing with PAS, emails tend to be prefaced just with the recipients firstname as in
XXX,
I refer to YYY - no 'Hi XXX' or 'Dear XXX'- this would be a bit different to the other organisations I've worked in.

This depends. For anyone internal of the same grade or below, first name is fine. Hi XXX, would be less formal and more friendly, so use that one when you either know the person well or definitely want to be friendly/informal.

In general, I'd also use first names for anyone inside the organisation who is more senior, unless I'm being really formal, or unless emailing the Sec Gen or the Minister. Some Sec Gen's prefer first names, but again it depends on the content of the email too, so that's one you just have to sound out when you get there. Secretary General is the formal title. The Minister is always 'Minister', never anything else, even in person. Dail deputies are always Deputy XXX, Senators are Senator XXX, even when speaking.
Depending on where you are you'll have more or less dealings with the political side - if you're running an operational area that aspect will be limited, but if you're in a policy or legislative role it could be significant. Anyone outside, i'd address by Mr, Ms, Dr, etc., at least at first and until I know we are on first name terms.


- In order to build a network, is it ok to reach out and get to know people in other sections/divisions outside of your immediate reports and line manager. For example, would it be considered odd to invite a peer PO in a different section which has an overlap with your own area for coffee to get to understand their role better or would this be considered unusual.
Other POs in general will be very friendly. If this came up naturally, it would be fine. Emailing someone you've never met asking them for coffee might be a little weird. People are nice though, and unless you're somewhere very isolated you'll have no problem in this regard.

- As a non CS entrant at a senior grade like PO, what supports/ induction process would be usual, and how before you're typically expected to be fully self- sufficient- days/ weeks/ months. For example, if you've begun a new role as say an AP or PO, how often would you meet your line manager in the initial period.

In my experience, in terms of induction or supports, almost none. This is a very senior grade, and you'll be expected to be up to speed almost straight away. an organised handover of responsibilities is very rare, and the most likely scenario is that either there's been a vacancy in your role for a while (months) or it's a newly created role nobody has done before. Have a really good chat with your ASec and make sure you understand what they are expecting from you. It's not a role where you'll have your hand held or be supervised to any great degree, you'll be expected to solve your own problems (or at least be able to suggest solutions) and while most people will be cooperative, the division or section will be your responsibility and your domain.
Having said that, you've passed all the assessments, so your situational judgement must be good :P and most of it is knowing what to handle yourself, what to delegate, and when to seek guidance.

- Any do's and don't's you can think of- particular anxious not to commit an avoidable faux pas early on as I learn the culture and decision making systems
Be friendly with your team, but don't forget you're the leader and not a team member, so not one of the lads. Don't waste your time trying to ingratiate yourself by doing work that's not your responsibility - figure out as fast as you can what your key senior management responsibilities are and concentrate as hard as you can on those. Keep an eye on cues from your ASec and adjust quickly according to feedback from them. Big cultural thing around being polite too, even when you're not necessarily being nice.

Also, senior people in the CS are generally very quiet about titles and qualifications. So don't assume anyone you deal with is less qualified or less educated than you are - they are very likely not to mention their quals or title. There are of course a few that are quite forward about these things, but in general that just makes people uncomfortable and is seen as embarrassing and 'not done'. When/if you do something remarkable, the people who need to know will know, it's not the done thing to draw attention - you'll be more appreciated for being understatedly fabulous :P. (I remember one scenario where someone came to introduce themselves to me when I was new in a role, and told me in the first two sentences that they had a degree. Myself and the other person in the room had four degrees between us. Nobody said a word, but we both thought he was a twat).


- Any specific documents that are useful to be reading now to get acclimatised. This probably needs to wait until you have an idea where you're going. When you know, if there's been any big scandal in that area, read the report!

- Is there a social aspect to the job? I think people have different experiences. I see the poster above said the pace is slow, I would say the exact opposite. For the first year, I would expect you'll be knackered by the speed, once you've figured out enough to be useful, and potentially pulling some very long hours with limited time or energy for anything else. But there's a great social side, once you settle in, mainly with other people who are having the same experiences you are.

Good luck, and maybe when you have some idea of the general area you're moving to, post here and people will be able to give a little more info.

Hi Glinda,
Many thanks for your excellent and very comprehensive advice
Really appreciate it!
Newbee

Xofpod

Glinda wrote: »

Hi Newbee,

In relation to your specific questions i've put a few thoughts below. But if you need some impartial support in the first few weeks after you start, feel free to drop me a PM and I'll happily help out where i can.

- How to address more senior staff members in email / informally in conversation- is it ok to use their first name- I've also noticed in dealing with PAS, emails tend to be prefaced just with the recipients firstname as in
XXX,
I refer to YYY - no 'Hi XXX' or 'Dear XXX'- this would be a bit different to the other organisations I've worked in.

This depends. For anyone internal of the same grade or below, first name is fine. Hi XXX, would be less formal and more friendly, so use that one when you either know the person well or definitely want to be friendly/informal.

In general, I'd also use first names for anyone inside the organisation who is more senior, unless I'm being really formal, or unless emailing the Sec Gen or the Minister. Some Sec Gen's prefer first names, but again it depends on the content of the email too, so that's one you just have to sound out when you get there. Secretary General is the formal title. The Minister is always 'Minister', never anything else, even in person. Dail deputies are always Deputy XXX, Senators are Senator XXX, even when speaking.
Depending on where you are you'll have more or less dealings with the political side - if you're running an operational area that aspect will be limited, but if you're in a policy or legislative role it could be significant. Anyone outside, i'd address by Mr, Ms, Dr, etc., at least at first and until I know we are on first name terms.


- In order to build a network, is it ok to reach out and get to know people in other sections/divisions outside of your immediate reports and line manager. For example, would it be considered odd to invite a peer PO in a different section which has an overlap with your own area for coffee to get to understand their role better or would this be considered unusual.
Other POs in general will be very friendly. If this came up naturally, it would be fine. Emailing someone you've never met asking them for coffee might be a little weird. People are nice though, and unless you're somewhere very isolated you'll have no problem in this regard.

- As a non CS entrant at a senior grade like PO, what supports/ induction process would be usual, and how before you're typically expected to be fully self- sufficient- days/ weeks/ months. For example, if you've begun a new role as say an AP or PO, how often would you meet your line manager in the initial period.

In my experience, in terms of induction or supports, almost none. This is a very senior grade, and you'll be expected to be up to speed almost straight away. an organised handover of responsibilities is very rare, and the most likely scenario is that either there's been a vacancy in your role for a while (months) or it's a newly created role nobody has done before. Have a really good chat with your ASec and make sure you understand what they are expecting from you. It's not a role where you'll have your hand held or be supervised to any great degree, you'll be expected to solve your own problems (or at least be able to suggest solutions) and while most people will be cooperative, the division or section will be your responsibility and your domain.
Having said that, you've passed all the assessments, so your situational judgement must be good :P and most of it is knowing what to handle yourself, what to delegate, and when to seek guidance.

- Any do's and don't's you can think of- particular anxious not to commit an avoidable faux pas early on as I learn the culture and decision making systems
Be friendly with your team, but don't forget you're the leader and not a team member, so not one of the lads. Don't waste your time trying to ingratiate yourself by doing work that's not your responsibility - figure out as fast as you can what your key senior management responsibilities are and concentrate as hard as you can on those. Keep an eye on cues from your ASec and adjust quickly according to feedback from them. Big cultural thing around being polite too, even when you're not necessarily being nice.

Also, senior people in the CS are generally very quiet about titles and qualifications. So don't assume anyone you deal with is less qualified or less educated than you are - they are very likely not to mention their quals or title. There are of course a few that are quite forward about these things, but in general that just makes people uncomfortable and is seen as embarrassing and 'not done'. When/if you do something remarkable, the people who need to know will know, it's not the done thing to draw attention - you'll be more appreciated for being understatedly fabulous :P. (I remember one scenario where someone came to introduce themselves to me when I was new in a role, and told me in the first two sentences that they had a degree. Myself and the other person in the room had four degrees between us. Nobody said a word, but we both thought he was a twat).


- Any specific documents that are useful to be reading now to get acclimatised. This probably needs to wait until you have an idea where you're going. When you know, if there's been any big scandal in that area, read the report!

- Is there a social aspect to the job? I think people have different experiences. I see the poster above said the pace is slow, I would say the exact opposite. For the first year, I would expect you'll be knackered by the speed, once you've figured out enough to be useful, and potentially pulling some very long hours with limited time or energy for anything else. But there's a great social side, once you settle in, mainly with other people who are having the same experiences you are.

Good luck, and maybe when you have some idea of the general area you're moving to, post here and people will be able to give a little more info.

Absolutely agree with all of the above, excellent advice. The only thing I'd add is a note on the current context - Covid and remote working. This does add a little to the challenge of integrating, as you won't have the same immediate face time with your new team or colleagues. While a lot of people have adapted well to working from home, there's definitely "drift" from others. Once you get a handle on what's expected of you, it's probably a good idea to set some fairly clear structures for reporting, performance management (in a daily/weekly sense rather than the longer term PMDS system) and communication pathways with your team.

Chaos Black

Not a PO but as a general rule of thumb the job environment varies a lot in the CS, so if you end up in a policy area (e.g. Taoiseachs/DPER/Finance) for example that will be likely quite different to a more operation focused area (Revenue, Social Welfare etc).

I would guess at PO level it is a 50/50 where you end up as policy areas tend to be top heavy.