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Heat pumps

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    Ionised wrote: »
    This heat pump business seems awfully controversial reading through this thread.

    Yeah, Black_Knight started it - he pulled the pin, chucked in the grenade & ran off :D.

    Synopsis - most people don't want to pay €1000 odd extra for a heat pump, regardless of the likely extra range, running cost savings & environmental benefits.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Kramer wrote: »
    Synopsis - most people don't want to pay €1000 odd extra for a heat pump, regardless of the likely extra range, running cost savings & environmental benefits.

    I thought it was much less black and white than that, a couple of people don't think it's worth it, a couple of people do, and most people don't really have an opinion either way :D


  • Moderators Posts: 12,371 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Kramer wrote: »
    Yeah, Black_Knight started it - he pulled the pin, chucked in the grenade & ran off :D.

    .

    In my defense, 24 hours after I started the thread I had a new baby, so my priorities shifted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    In my defense, 24 hours after I started the thread I had a new baby, so my priorities shifted.

    Congratulations!!!

    Was the fierce debate around heat pumps enough to induce labour? :D

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In my defense, 24 hours after I started the thread I had a new baby, so my priorities shifted.

    Congrats lad, :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    In my defense, 24 hours after I started the thread I had a new baby, so my priorities shifted.

    tenor.gif


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Did you go onto the Kia site and check the specs ?

    I don't think the heat pump is very beneficial, sure it's more efficient but in the recent cold snap for instance it would be absolutely useless.

    Automotive heat pumps are generally more efficient than resistive heating down to around -8C. just how cold did it get out your way


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    Automotive heat pumps are generally more efficient than resistive heating down to around -8C. just how cold did it get out your way

    More efficient sure but not so that it will matter to anyone every day because if you got 350 odd Kms range in an E-soul/Niro etc who cares ?

    In a 24 Kwh Nissan Leaf or even a 94 Ah BMW i3 I get it, you want to squeeze out as much range as possible.

    And anyone pre-heating and not plugged in will use the restive heating also lessening it's efficiency or usefulness but whether plugged in or not I don't think any EV uses the heat pump, again, because it's not necessary.

    Most of the range will be lost to the motor and wind resistance + cold batteries.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    The Up! used to lose about 40% range in winter months, the Mini with it's heat pump is losing about 20%. That works out about 20% more range at the time of year that I need to worried about it.

    Our climate is in the goldilocks zone for heat pumps, so I think it's ridiculous that they aren't a standard option here.

    Whilst I agree with you that the poster shouldn't get too worked up about it not being available here, statements like
    sure it's more efficient but in the recent cold snap for instance it would be absolutely useless.
    are just untrue based on the temperatures we hit in cold snaps


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    The Up! used to lose about 40% range in winter months, the Mini with it's heat pump is losing about 20%. That works out about 20% more range at the time of year that I need to worried about it.

    Our climate is in the goldilocks zone for heat pumps, so I think it's ridiculous that they aren't a standard option here.

    Whilst I agree with you that the poster shouldn't get too worked up about it not being available here, statements like are just untrue based on the temperatures we hit in cold snaps

    My point is that spending 1200 Euro's or more on the heat pump in a 350-400 Km+ range car is pointless because unless taking the range to the max every day it's just not worth it, " in my undervalued opinion as usual" :P


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    My point is that spending 1200 Euro's or more on the heat pump in a 350-400 Km+ range car is pointless because unless taking the range to the max every day it's just not worth it, " in my undervalued opinion as usual" :P

    Unfortunately you don't get a choice here as someone in Kia has made that for us. The electric Kia Soul would benefit from a heat pump in Irish winter weather, the question, and I can see where you come from on this, is at what point does it make sense for an individual driver. If you buy a 350km range car as you regularly do a 300km journey, the heat pump could well make the difference between a charging stop for 4 months of the year. In which case, the cost to the individual is entirely worth it.

    It's a similar effect to spending a bit extra on the REX. The other use case for cars with large batteries being those who don't charge at home, where again, having a longer range in the colder months could minimise the number of times a charge is required.

    Too many users on this sub forum can't see past their own use case, that goes from the never REX'rs, to the always AC crew. People just need to be less black and white, they should realise that as with most things in life, it's all shades of grey.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    Unfortunately you don't get a choice here as someone in Kia has made that for us. The electric Kia Soul would benefit from a heat pump in Irish winter weather, the question, and I can see where you come from on this, is at what point does it make sense for an individual driver. If you buy a 350km range car as you regularly do a 300km journey, the heat pump could well make the difference between a charging stop for 4 months of the year. In which case, the cost to the individual is entirely worth it.

    It's a similar effect to spending a bit extra on the REX. The other use case for cars with large batteries being those who don't charge at home, where again, having a longer range in the colder months could minimise the number of times a charge is required.

    Too many users on this sub forum can't see past their own use case, that goes from the never REX'rs, to the always AC crew. People just need to be less black and white, they should realise that as with most things in life, it's all shades of grey.

    Fair points but remember also that a lot of People don't understand that preheating doesn't use the HP so if preheating off the mains it's still going to use the resistive heating even when getting in and turning on the car the resistive heating will still come on for faster warm up.

    People should think carefully though because the HP isn't the holy grail of cold weather driving they might think, the Rex is completely different really because it doesn't just extend your range maybe 20 Kms if you're lucky, it can take you wherever you want to go without having to stop at all as long as there's Petrol in the tank and it eliminates coldgating completely.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Fair points but remember also that a lot of People don't understand that preheating doesn't use the HP so if preheating off the mains it's still going to use the resistive heating even when getting in and turning on the car the resistive heating will still come on for faster warm up.

    At that point it doesn't make any difference anyway, you are plugged into the mains so it doesn't matter (from a range point of view) whether the car using a heat pump, resistive heating or some other system.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    At that point it doesn't make any difference anyway, you are plugged into the mains so it doesn't matter (from a range point of view) whether the car using a heat pump, resistive heating or some other system.

    No I was talking about pre-heating while not plugged in, I do this a lot so I'm assuming I'm not the only one though when I don't need the range I can leave the heat on in the i3 if I go into a shop and the car stays nice and warm, very handy feature but when it's very cold does consume a notable amount more juice. A HP is of no benefit in these circumstances.

    I would like some consumption reports on the id.3 though as it uses Co2 as the refrigerant which is supposed to work better at lower temps.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    No I was talking about pre-heating while not plugged in, I do this a lot so I'm assuming I'm not the only one though when I don't need the range I can leave the heat on in the i3 if I go into a shop and the car stays nice and warm, very handy feature but when it's very cold does consume a notable amount more juice. A HP is of no benefit in these circumstances.

    What makes you think it doesn't use the heat pump in those circumstances? A heat pump will still be more efficient at supplying a given amount of thermal energy per kWh whether the car is driving or pre heating. So there will still be some benefit.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    What makes you think it doesn't use the heat pump in those circumstances? A heat pump will still be more efficient at supplying a given amount of thermal energy per kWh whether the car is driving or pre heating. So there will still be some benefit.

    Of course there's some benefit but is it worth 1200 Euro's or more ?

    The HP only comes on when the HV system is initialised and this comes on only when the car is turned on.

    A good way to test this, is to activate pre-heat, make sure the car is unplugged from the mains and if the radiator fan isn't spinning then the HP isn't working because there's no other way to suck heat through the radiator in order for the HP to work.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    The heat pump is a €600 euro option on the I3, not all of them use the expensive CO2 VW tech :)
    For the Mini, the radiator comes on when I activate the heat pump. Even had a neighbour knock the door to tell me I'd left the car on as it was making "weird" noises.
    Mine uses the HV to pre-heat, I can see the battery percentage drops a little when ever I use it in an unplugged state.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    The heat pump is a €600 euro option on the I3, not all of them use the expensive CO2 VW tech :)
    For the Mini, the radiator comes on when I activate the heat pump. Even had a neighbour knock the door to tell me I'd left the car on as it was making "weird" noises.
    Mine uses the HV to pre-heat, I can see the battery percentage drops a little when ever I use it in an unplugged state.

    Yes the heating used the HV system, but the HP usually doesn't come on until the car is turned on, Check next time that the radiator fan is actually spinning because if it's not then the HP isn't active.

    Perhaps your neighbour just heard the cabin fan, it is noticeable from outside.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    So the heating uses the HV system but instead of using the efficient form of heating it deliberately uses the less efficient one? I don't want to judge the engineers, but that sounds like an "interesting" theory.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    So the heating uses the HV system but instead of using the efficient form of heating it deliberately uses the less efficient one? I don't want to judge the engineers, but that sounds like an "interesting" theory.

    When the car is turned on it will use the HP if installed but if sitting plugged in with pre-heat set it won't or if pre-heating from battery it won't use the HP.

    This is my experience with HP but if anyone can confirm that when pre-heating the car either on or off the mains if the radiator fan is spinning or not, it will be quite noticeable as it needs to move some decent air or the HP can't function.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    When the car is turned on it will use the HP if installed but if sitting plugged in with pre-heat set it won't or if pre-heating from battery it won't use the HP.

    This is my experience with HP but if anyone can confirm that when pre-heating the car either on or off the mains if the radiator fan is spinning or not, it will be quite noticeable as it needs to move some decent air or the HP can't function.

    That's based on the Nissan Leaf right? The I3 REX is not available with a heat pump.
    Did some research, the Leaf used the heat pump to pre-heat too, it would stop using it if it detected icing (in the heat pump), in which case it would switch to resistive heating instead.
    https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23617&sid=97081bc4b9f81a94b5e2907afb6ea067&start=10


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    That's based on the Nissan Leaf right? The I3 REX is not available with a heat pump.
    Did some research, the Leaf used the heat pump to pre-heat too, it would stop using it if it detected icing (in the heat pump), in which case it would switch to resistive heating instead.
    https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23617&sid=97081bc4b9f81a94b5e2907afb6ea067&start=10

    My 2015 leaf did not use the HP on pre-heat either plugged in or not, neither did the Ioniq.

    If the fans are not spinning moving lots of air it's not working. Simple and easy for anyone to check.

    As soon as I got into the Leaf and turned it on I could hear the fans spin up.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Maybe you just think Heat Pumps are much louder on cars than they are.
    It makes way more sense for engineers to use the more efficient heating system in a system that is primarily used to increase range (pre-heating).

    Either that or I need to go and file a patent, and correct some other people on the internet.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    Maybe you just think Heat Pumps are much louder on cars than they are.
    It makes way more sense for engineers to use the more efficient heating system in a system that is primarily used to increase range (pre-heating).

    Either that or I need to go and file a patent, and correct some other people on the internet.

    No you're not reading what I'm saying, in order for the HP to function the radiator needs to be able to extract heat from the air, it can't do this magically while the car is stationary so it needs the fans to force the air through the radiator.

    And it may make sense that the engineers would use the HP for preheating but they don't always do things that make sense and they might see not having the HP come on while plugged in unnecessary or even when not plugged in.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    No you're not reading what I'm saying, in order for the HP to function the radiator needs to be able to extract heat from the air, it can't do this magically while the car is stationary so it needs the fans to force the air through the radiator.

    No I am reading what you are saying, the radiator doesn't necessarily need to be running at 100% for the heat pump to be effective. You've based your assertion on car's don't use heat pumps when pre-conditioning on not hearing the radiator for your Leaf, or a limited test drive of the Ioniq. It's shaky at best.

    You can hear the heat pump kicking in on this video at around 4:45



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    No I am reading what you are saying, the radiator doesn't necessarily need to be running at 100% for the heat pump to be effective. You've based your assertion on car's don't use heat pumps when pre-conditioning on not hearing the radiator for your Leaf, or a limited test drive of the Ioniq. It's shaky at best.

    You can hear the heat pump kicking in on this video at around 4:45


    OK that's interesting, I think I did hear some compressor noise, but your man wouldn't shut up!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Ionised


    I'm not sure what the noise is, but my Cooper SE is bloody loud when preheating. I can hear it inside the house through double glazing.


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