British Mother, Irish Child

ian_m

Hi


Seeking information regarding a new single Mum who is ordinarily resident in the UK with a UK passport. She recently gave birth in Ireland and is living in Ireland on her own with the baby. She is currently looking after herself financially but I am not sure how long this is sustainable. Can someone point me in the direction of what supports she maybe able to apply for as a UK citizen with an Irish child living in Ireland.



Lets just say she decides to stay here, is it possible to apply for support even though she does not have any history of work? Is is possible to apply for support on the basis of her Irish child?


Hope I am in the right spot and someone can help or point me in the right direction. Thanks in advance.

Peregrinus

As a UK citizen resident in Ireland she'll get the same social welfare treatment in Ireland as an Irish citizen resident in Ireland would.

To qualify for a means-tested benefit, you have to be "habitually resident" in Ireland. Residence anywhere in the Common Travel Area can count towards habitual residence, so if she has only recently arrived in Ireland and, before that, was in the UK that's OK. But the habitual residence test also requires that there is evidence of your future intention to live in Ireland, and that your "main centre of interest" is now Ireland. So the Dept of Social Protection will be looking at why she came to Ireland, why she is here now and whether her circumstances point to her remaning here for the forseeable future.

it might be worth your while posting this query also in the "State Benefits" forum.

ohnonotgmail

As an aside the child is not an irish citizen. it would inherit british citizenship from its mother.

GerardKeating

The mother might/should also apply for a passport for the child, unless she or the father have lived in Ireland (or are irish citizen) the child won't be entitled to Irish citizenship, and since the child was not born in the UK, might have issues in the future.

Orobhsa

Re Citizenship


A child born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 is entitled to Irish citizenship if they have a British parent or a parent who is entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency.


https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

ohnonotgmail

Orobhsa wrote: »

Re Citizenship


A child born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 is entitled to Irish citizenship if they have a British parent or a parent who is entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency.


https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

i wasnt aware of that. thak you for the clarication.

stinkbomb

Child can be Irish or British or both, as they choose.

Peregrinus

stinkbomb wrote: »

Child can be Irish or British or both, as they choose.

Child has British Citizenship, regardless of whether it wants it or not. Child is entilted to Irish citizenship, an entitlement which it can convert into actual citizenship at any time by doing something that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do - e.g. vote in a referendum or presidential election; apply for an Irish passport;

stinkbomb

No. Child has the same entitlement to either, or both. They can choose to be either. If you're talking about automatic assumptions of citizenship for various reasons, they are automatically both British and Irish.

ax530

If her partner is working in Ireland entitled to Irish child benifit otherwise I think must apply in UK as that where she paid tax.
Uk child benefit then topped up to Irish rate as living in Ireland

ohnonotgmail

stinkbomb wrote: »

No. Child has the same entitlement to either, or both. They can choose to be either. If you're talking about automatic assumptions of citizenship for various reasons, they are automatically both British and Irish.

the child is not automatically an irish citizen. they are entitled to apply for irish citizenship. the two things are not the same.

padser

stinkbomb wrote: »

Child can be Irish or British or both, as they choose.

If they are any good at sport - we should cap the child early

Peregrinus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the child is not automatically an irish citizen. they are entitled to apply for irish citizenship. the two things are not the same.

Not quite. The child is entitled to Irish citizenship, but they don't have to apply for it. They just take up their entitlement by exercising their rights as an Irish citizen and, if they do that, they are an Irish citizen from birth. They do not have to "apply" or "register" or anything of the kind.

As regards British citizenship, we are told the child's mother is a British citizen, but we are not told how she comes to be a British citizen. But if she is a British citizen who was herself born in the UK, then her child, born in Ireland, is automatically a British citizen from birth. The child is not entitled to be a British citizens or to become a British citizen; they just are a British citizen

stinkbomb

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the child is not automatically an irish citizen. they are entitled to apply for irish citizenship. the two things are not the same.

A child born to a British parent in Ireland IS automatically an Irish citizen, in the exact same way that a child born to Irish parents in Ireland is, and in the same way a child born in the UK to Irish parents is automatically an Irish citizen.

None of them have to apply for anything. This child will have an Irish birth cert and can send it off for their Irish passport.

Peregrinus

stinkbomb wrote: »

A child born to a British parent in Ireland IS automatically an Irish citizen, in the exact same way that a child born to Irish parents in Ireland is, and in the same way a child born in the UK to Irish parents is automatically an Irish citizen.

Actually, no. Not quite.

Irish citizenship law divides the world into three groups:

A. Persons who are Irish citizens
B. Persons who are entitled to be Irish citizens
C. Everyone else

As already mentioned, a person who is entitled to be an Irish citizen (group becomes an actual Irish citizen (Group A) when he or she does something that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do.

Ok. As regards citizenship by place of birth, the basic rule is that “every person born in the island of Ireland is entitled to be an Irish citizen” (Group . Let’s call that rule 1. There are some qualifications to rule 1, but let’s not worry about them here.

As regards citizenship by descent, “a person is an Irish citizen from birth if at the time of his or her birth either parent was an Irish citizen”. Call that rule 2. Again, there are some qualifications, including to do with birth to parents who themselves were born abroad, but we won’t go into them here.

Right. A child is born in Ireland to two Irish citizen parents. Under rule 1, that child would be entitled to be an Irish citizen (Group , but under rule 2 the child is an Irish citizen (Group A).

What is the position if a child is born in Ireland to two British citizen parents? Under rule 1, the child would be entitled to be an Irish citizen (Group . Rule 2 does not apply to them.

Finally, what about a child born abroad, but to Irish parents? Under rule 1, nothing; under rule 2, the child is an Irish citizen (Group A).

So the bottom line is that if you are born to Irish parents, whether in Ireland or outside, you are likely to be an Irish citizen. If you are born in Ireland to non-Irish parents you are likely to be entitled to be an Irish citizen - you need to take up that entitlement by doing some act that only a citizen is entitled to do. And if you are born outside Ireland to non-Irish parents you are likely to be neither an Irish citizen nor entitled to become one.

stinkbomb wrote: »

None of them have to apply for anything. This child will have an Irish birth cert and can send it off for their Irish passport.

This bit is right. A person born in Ireland to non-Irish parents who is entitled to be an Irish citizen converts that entitlement into actual citizenship by doing something that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do. And the most obvious thing is, acquire an Irish passport.

stinkbomb

I'm afraid that's nonsense.

Child born in Ireland to Irish parents: gets Irish birth cert, is Irish, and at any point can get Irish passport to prove they are Irish.
Child born in Ireland to British parents: gets Irish birth cert, is Irish, and at any point can get Irish passport to prove they are Irish.

There is no distinction between the 2 groups due to CTA rules. None at all. The only difference, and its only semantic, is that the former is Irish due to principle of jus solis AND jus sangunis, and the latter is Irish due to jus solis only. But BOTH are automatically Irish. Same as a child born to Irish parents amywhere in the world, they gain through jus sanguinis only.

All are Category A, by your classification. None are Category B.

Peregrinus

stinkbomb wrote: »

I'm afraid that's nonsense.

It's not nonsense.

stinkbomb wrote: »

There is no distinction between the 2 groups due to CTA rules. None at all.

I never said the distinction was due to the CTA rules. Where did you get that notion?

The distinction is made by Irish citizenship law - specifically, by the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended, which you can read here. The quotes in my earlier post are from that Act.

stinkbomb wrote: »

The only difference, and its only semantic, is that the former is Irish due to principle of jus solis AND jus sangunis, and the latter is Irish due to jus solis only. But BOTH are automatically Irish. Same as a child born to Irish parents amywhere in the world, they gain through jus sanguinis only.

Nope. The position is as set out in my earlier post.

Ireland's jus solis rule is set out in section 6 of the Act; birth in Ireland normally confers an entitlement to Irish citizenship, rather than conferring Irish citizenship itself. Section 6 goes on to say how that entitlement can be converted into actual citizenship, and also to set out exceptions to the general rule and to deal with special cases.

Ireland's jus sanguinis rule is set out in section 7; birth to an Irish citizen confers citizenship, and not merely entitlement to citizenship. Again, the legislation goes on to specify exceptions and deal with special cases.

stinkbomb wrote: »

All are Category A, by your classification. None are Category B.

Again, nope. Irish law, as enacted by the Oireachtas, says otherwise.

The basic point is that Irish citizenship law privileges descent from an Irish citizen (which confers actual citizenship) over birth in Ireland (which confers only an entitlement to citizenship). The difference in treatment is not onerous, since it is normally easy to convert an entitlement to citizenship into actual citizenship; anyone entitled to citizenship to whom citizenship would be beneficial or useful can become a citizen. But the distinction is real, and there are many people who are entitled to be Irish citizens but who are not actually Irish citizens. And many of them will never become Irish citizens, simply because they never have occasion to.

stinkbomb

No again you are wrong, solely because the parent is British. IF they were any other nationality, you would be right, but due to the CTA rules (which I never said YOU mentioned, I said that was why you were wrong), a child born to British parents in Ireland is indistinguishable from a child born to Irish parents.
Britain and Ireland have a great number of special rules for each other that apply to no-one else. This is one of them.

Peregrinus

stinkbomb wrote: »

No again you are wrong, solely because the parent is British. IF they were any other nationality, you would be right, but due to the CTA rules (which I never said YOU mentioned, I said that was why you were wrong), a child born to British parents in Ireland is indistinguishable from a child born to Irish parents.
Britain and Ireland have a great number of special rules for each other that apply to no-one else. This is one of them.

A reading of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, to which I have already linked, does not bear you out.

Can you link to the rule that produces the outcome you claim?

(NB: My understanding is that the CTA rules do not regulate citizenship at all, but rather travel. But if I am wrong no doubt you will be able to link me to the rules dealing with rights to citizenship.)

Sonrisa

Peregrinus wrote: »

A reading of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, to which I have already linked, does not bear you out.

Can you link to the rule that produces the outcome you claim?

(NB: My understanding is that the CTA rules do not regulate citizenship at all, but rather travel. But if I am wrong no doubt you will be able to link me to the rules dealing with rights to citizenship.)

Sections 6 and 6A of the 1956 Act as amended as amended/inserted by sections 3 and 4 of the 2004 Act

Or the citizens information website: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

ohnonotgmail

Sonrisa wrote: »

Sections 6 and 6A of the 1956 Act as amended as amended/inserted by sections 3 and 4 of the 2004 Act

Or the citizens information website: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

that page confirms what peregrinus said.