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Daikin Altherma 3 and Solis Inverter

  • 14-08-2020 9:58am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭ BuzzFish


    Hi folks,
    Hoping for a little guidance here. I have recently moved into a new house in which we upgraded from the standard gas offering to a Daikin Altherma 3 Air to Water system. All working away fine.

    The house has 8 PV panels on the roof, and this has only been fully commissioned this week by the builder. It’s using a Solis-mini-2500-4G inverter. Having been exporting to the grid already and I want to make use of the surplus.

    When I ordered the Daikin unit, I also ordered the LAN Adapter (Online controller & PV Panel) - BRP069A61 with the intention of taking excess energy to the Daikin unit for hot water. So far, I have this unit wired in from a LAN perspective only and its working fine.
    The builder wants nothing to do with linking the Daikin to the PV setup as I specified the Daikin unit. I've not spoken to the Solis installer yet but the electrician for the house knows nothing about Daikin or the Solis.

    My question: Has anyone else on here got a similar setup and has the Daikin and Solis hardware linked… that could guide me though the setup..... or recommend someone if I require a specialist. It seems like I'm 80% there but just need a pulse metre installed and maybe connectivity up to the inverter.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭✭ BFMadden


    A LAN adapter allows you to control the Heat Pump from an app or browser, it wouldn't have anything to do.with connect your PV setup to the Heat Pump.


  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭ BuzzFish


    BFMadden wrote: »
    A LAN adapter allows you to control the Heat Pump from an app or browser, it wouldn't have anything to do.with connect your PV setup to the Heat Pump.

    Thanks for the reply but as per my post the model I have also makes it possible to connect to photovoltaïc solar panels to optimise self-consumption of electricity produced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭ thos


    I've not done it, unfortunately my Altherma is older and won't support the Smart Grid via LAN Adapater, but I did do a good bit of research here in my attempt at it.

    You can try talking to Daikin directly, they weren't a massive help unfortunately. Tried to fob me off on a dealer, NRG who do both Daikin and Solar, but they weren't clear whether they had done the integration.

    The info you need should all be here, in the installer reference guide - https://www.daikin.nl/content/dam/document-library/Installer-reference-guide/ctrl/BRP069A61,%20BRP069A62_4PEN464229-1_2017_08_Installer%20reference%20guide_English.pdf

    Also try this doc to make sure all your versions are correct and it's a supported config - https://www.daikin.nl/content/dam/document-library/Installer-reference-guide/ctrl/BRP069A61,%20BRP069A62_4PEN464229-1_2017_08_Installer%20reference%20guide_English.pdf

    Section 8 of the Installer doc is most relevant to how the Smart Grid piece works.

    It talks about needing digital outputs from the inverter to help the LAN Adpater switch Smart Grid modes, but from what I can see it's not very applicable to us, and I don't believe any inverters support this, nor is there a standard to do so. The use case I was planning for was buffering energy in the domestic hot water (DHW) tank, as opposed to in the rooms / space heating or cooling. Which reduces the need for the inverter to do any mode switching (as it likely can't)

    If you're only talking about DHW, then it becomes about the power limitation, and once you've got an energy meter hooked up to the LAN Adapter, then you can do this dynamically and it should operate in a similar fashion to an EDDI (in general concept, not diverting practice)

    So the whole digital outputs / switching modes could actually become static wiring, leaving the unit in a set mode, and relying on the power meter for dynamic power adjustment.

    That was my theory, unfortunately my unit was too old to support it, so I never got to try implement this. If the static wiring didn't work, then some small switches or even a Raspberry Pi could be used to flip a set of relays to adjust the modes.

    Good luck, let me know how it goes.

    Tom


  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭ BuzzFish


    thos wrote: »
    I've not done it, unfortunately my Altherma is older and won't support the Smart Grid via LAN Adapater, but I did do a good bit of research here in my attempt at it.

    You can try talking to Daikin directly, they weren't a massive help unfortunately. Tried to fob me off on a dealer, NRG who do both Daikin and Solar, but they weren't clear whether they had done the integration.

    The info you need should all be here, in the installer reference guide - https://www.daikin.nl/content/dam/document-library/Installer-reference-guide/ctrl/BRP069A61,%20BRP069A62_4PEN464229-1_2017_08_Installer%20reference%20guide_English.pdf

    Also try this doc to make sure all your versions are correct and it's a supported config - https://www.daikin.nl/content/dam/document-library/Installer-reference-guide/ctrl/BRP069A61,%20BRP069A62_4PEN464229-1_2017_08_Installer%20reference%20guide_English.pdf

    Section 8 of the Installer doc is most relevant to how the Smart Grid piece works.

    It talks about needing digital outputs from the inverter to help the LAN Adpater switch Smart Grid modes, but from what I can see it's not very applicable to us, and I don't believe any inverters support this, nor is there a standard to do so. The use case I was planning for was buffering energy in the domestic hot water (DHW) tank, as opposed to in the rooms / space heating or cooling. Which reduces the need for the inverter to do any mode switching (as it likely can't)

    If you're only talking about DHW, then it becomes about the power limitation, and once you've got an energy meter hooked up to the LAN Adapter, then you can do this dynamically and it should operate in a similar fashion to an EDDI (in general concept, not diverting practice)

    So the whole digital outputs / switching modes could actually become static wiring, leaving the unit in a set mode, and relying on the power meter for dynamic power adjustment.

    That was my theory, unfortunately my unit was too old to support it, so I never got to try implement this. If the static wiring didn't work, then some small switches or even a Raspberry Pi could be used to flip a set of relays to adjust the modes.

    Good luck, let me know how it goes.

    Tom

    Tom,

    This is great info, thank you for taking the time to reply.

    As an avid user of home assistant and SmartThings I think the idea of using a relay triggered based on excess energy is the way to go.

    I'll have a punt at this and report back so you have some info should you ever need it.

    Thanks again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭ thos


    Let me know how it goes


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,724 ✭✭✭ graememk


    BuzzFish wrote: »
    Tom,

    This is great info, thank you for taking the time to reply.

    As an avid user of home assistant and SmartThings I think the idea of using a relay triggered based on excess energy is the way to go.

    I'll have a punt at this and report back so you have some info should you ever need it.

    Thanks again.

    Have a look at Emonpi from openenergymonitor

    its a pi with power monitoring hardware, ie CT clamps etc and then you can control things from it using MQTT and Node-RED, also can display energy useage, excess/ export etc

    They also have heatpump monitoring and control(i think) in development


  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭ BuzzFish


    Small update on this...

    So I'm using a Aeotec HEM device to monitor the Solar, Grid and Daikin power draw in my house. I use this device:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aeotec-Electricity-Monitor-Consumption-detects/dp/B01708RIYU/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=aeotec+3+phase&qid=1598339125&s=diy&sr=1-1
    (Ignore the fact its 3 phase, you can use it for monitoring 3 seperate cables in single phase too.

    So this gives me detail on grid consumption/export.

    Next is the crude bit.... I found a NODERed flow that connects to the Daikin LAN adapter using a websocket and I have modified it to get me what I wanted. Firstly it gets me the DHW tank temperature (to display on my smart panels) and it also has the ability to swich the Daikin to "Powerful Mode". I trigger this based on the export value of the grid. My logic is.... if 1000w+ is being exported for >5 mins, enable powerful mode to heat DHW to comfort level (VIA a switch in Home assistant). When the grid consumption increases beyond (a to be decided value) disable Powerful mode again by turning off that same switch.

    This is very crude. I'm still trying to work out what electricity meter I need to have the Daikin fed the grid export to do this properly. I logged a call with them but I'm waiting....

    If you are interested in the NodeRed flow, here it is for you:
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Power"},{"property":"device_class","value":""},{"property":"icon","value":""},{"property":"unit_of_measurement","value":""}],"state":"payload","stateType":"msg","attributes":[],"resend":true,"outputLocation":"","outputLocationType":"none","inputOverride":"allow","x":210,"y":560,"wires":],[},{"id":"a890d834.fb0ea8","type":"server-state-changed","z":"98865fa5.3b5c3","name":"Excess Power","server":"382c1cb7.63e5f4","version":1,"exposeToHomeAssistant":false,"haConfig":[{"property":"name","value":""},{"property":"icon","value":""}],"entityidfilter":"switch.excess_power","entityidfiltertype":"exact","outputinitially":false,"state_type":"str","haltifstate":"off","halt_if_type":"str","halt_if_compare":"is","outputs":2,"output_only_on_state_change":true,"x":170,"y":980,"wires":"ca717895.bd5ca8"],["faa6b69e.d18668"},{"id":"d55fbade.d22c38","type":"websocket-client","z":"","path":"ws://192.168.1.244/mca","tls":"","wholemsg":"false"},{"id":"382c1cb7.63e5f4","type":"server","z":"","name":"Home Assistant"}]


  • Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭ thos


    Nice progress!
    BuzzFish wrote: »
    I'm still trying to work out what electricity meter I need to have the Daikin fed the grid export to do this properly. I logged a call with them but I'm waiting....

    From the installer doc:

    Image%202020-08-25%20at%2011.42.16%20a.m..png?source=viewer&v=4739224c300f18cd7aa34dd1d9c6b335

    Should be like these - from my searches a while back:
    https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-power-meters/7894089/
    https://shmmetershop.co.uk/product/abb-a42-steel-mid-approved-single-phase-ct-connected-kwh-meter-with-pulse-output-and-modbus-a42-112-100/

    If anyone else looks at the EmonPi route, some folk have gone a different way to the LAN Adapter and gone direct to P1/P2+RS485/Modbus. Looks pretty lairy
    https://community.openenergymonitor.org/t/hack-my-heat-pump-and-publish-data-onto-emoncms/2551/106


  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭ BuzzFish


    thos wrote: »
    Nice progress!



    From the installer doc:

    Image%202020-08-25%20at%2011.42.16%20a.m..png?source=viewer&v=4739224c300f18cd7aa34dd1d9c6b335

    Should be like these - from my searches a while back:
    https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-power-meters/7894089/
    https://shmmetershop.co.uk/product/abb-a42-steel-mid-approved-single-phase-ct-connected-kwh-meter-with-pulse-output-and-modbus-a42-112-100/

    If anyone else looks at the EmonPi route, some folk have gone a different way to the LAN Adapter and gone direct to P1/P2+RS485/Modbus. Looks pretty lairy
    https://community.openenergymonitor.org/t/hack-my-heat-pump-and-publish-data-onto-emoncms/2551/106


    I saw that in the doc (BRP069A61-A62_4PEN464229-1B_2018_10_Installer%20refernce%20guide_English.pdf) this morning as it happens but having a look those part numbers look to be out of date as the 212 is showing as discontinued in a few places.

    This page below proved useful though and I decided on the 311 meted instead of trying to find the 212. This will give me 2 outputs so I can stick one to the Daikin and use one in Home Assistant or maybe use for something else in the future. I don't believe I need MBUS/ModBUS but as I use a night meter I thought maybe there is some use in the 311 as it accounts for multi tarrif. I may have over spent this but would be a pain to try get this working and come up short.
    https://www.camax.co.uk/product/abb-b21-single-phase-65a-meter-series-2ma10014r1000-2ma100149r1000-2ma100152r1000

    I just bought the meter form Germany so I guess I'll await delivery and update you....

    https://www.elektronetshop.de/product/abb-wechselstromzaehler-2cma100154r1000-typ-b21-311-100.2867598.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,724 ✭✭✭ graememk


    Been looking into nodeRed for other projects, and just for curiosity.

    It's crazy powerful, if you can talk to the machine in any way there is a whole load of things you could do.

    And then you have the people with their head really screwed on making tools for the rest of us that can be just plugged in.

    (There's mqtt relays available too, if you need to switch a signal or provide power to something)

    I think if my dishwasher and washing machine if you set them going then turn them off, they will pick up where they left off when they regain power.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭ thebigmc



    @BuzzFish Digging up your thread as I'm interested to hear how this has worked out please. I'm researching the best heat pump to use excess solar and this is the only one I've come across.

    I'm linking a video showing a PV setup with the same heat pump and LAN controller for reference: Looks like a different invertor setup to yours.

    From the comments on that video:

    "Smart Energy ZigBee® Plug-in (for set-app) - as on the picture https://www.solaredge.com/products/device-control#/ to send Zigbee signal to: Dry Contact Switch (Smart Energy Relay) https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se-device-control-dry-contact-switch-installation-guide.pdf or Smart Energy Socket or Smart Energy switch. Daikin LAN Adapter is able to use all of them.

    Power meter https://www.solaredge.com/products/metering-and-sensors/solaredge-modbus-meter#/ with clamps

    Bad thing is, that HP will be switched On and Off several times a day, which will affect lifespan of HP.."



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,840 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    I think most heat pumps have an internal minimum runtime to prevent short cycling of the pump, so I don't think it'll suffer much of an impact

    I'm interested as well to hear how this setup went. I'll probably be upgrading the heat pump in a few years and I'm looking at Daikin for their Solar PV integration among other things



  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭ thebigmc


    @the_amazing_raisin Sorry to go off topic, but what other benefits are you seeing with the Daikin Heat pump? As far as I can see, its the only one with manufacturer integrated PV available.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,840 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    I think the main advantage to me is that Daikin have been building heat pumps for over 30 years, and seem to have a few agents in Ireland

    Currently I've a Dimplex heat pump, and while it's fine, I wouldn't go with them again. You can tell they're new to heat pumps and they only seem to have one or two customer service agents around Dublin, so not great for getting it serviced or fixed



  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭ BuzzFish


    Hi folks,

    Have this working perfectly for quite a while now. Took a while to get all the settings right but once my battery is full (recent addition!) the heatpump will take DHW to 53degrees using excess solar.

    If you go this road, I will paste in my complete config. You cannot get this working on "leaving water setpoint" control. You need the heatpump to be stat controlled (most are but my installer had configured the heatpump wrong!)

    Ross.



  • Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭ Mr Q


    I have a NIBE HP and you can connect it to a CT clamp kit they sell to use the excess solar. I have purchased one but yet to fit it.

    Once fitted it can control DHW, heating and cooling with the solar excess. Hopefully it will work well but I know there was at least one user on here with one and they seemed to have issues with it.

    There are definitely more companies than just Daikin and NIBE with a way to integrate solar PV.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3 markmcmullan


    Hi BuzzFish - I'm looking to do this (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058253949/solis-s6-daikin-altherma-3-heat-pump#latest) - would you mind sharing any tips you might have on your setup? How did you get the digital inputs to the LAN adapter?

    Thanks in advance

    Mark



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