Israel and the UAE normalize relations

coinop

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53770859

I said it before and I’ll say it again: Israel is going nowhere. Sooner or later, all countries will come to formally recognize Israel’s right to exist. Maybe then all the Arabs born in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan will stop pretending to be “Palestinian” and accept the nationality of their birth.

Zebra3

coinop wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53770859

I said it before and I’ll say it again: Israel is going nowhere. Sooner or later, all countries will come to formally recognize Israel’s right to exist. Maybe then all the Arabs born in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan will stop pretending to be “Palestinian” and accept the nationality of their birth.

How fascist of you to be telling the descendants of Israeli ethnic cleansing what they should be.

coinop

Zebra3 wrote: »

How fascist of you to be telling the descendants of Israeli ethnic cleansing what they should be.

Your nationality is the country of your birth. Simple. Unless...all those kids in Ireland born to Nigerian parents are not actually Irish after all...

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

coinop wrote: »

Your nationality is the country of your birth. Simple. Unless...all those kids in Ireland born to Nigerian parents are not actually Irish after all...

Not quite so simple. I wasn't born in Ireland, but I lived there for almost my entire childhood and adolescence. I have no national identity other than Irish.

Zebra3

coinop wrote: »

Your nationality is the country of your birth. Simple. Unless...all those kids in Ireland born to Nigerian parents are not actually Irish after all...

So David Ben-Gurion was Polish?

Avigdor Lieberman is Moldovan?

corner of hells

coinop wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53770859

I said it before and I’ll say it again: Israel is going nowhere. Sooner or later, all countries will come to formally recognize Israel’s right to exist. Maybe then all the Arabs born in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan will stop pretending to be “Palestinian” and accept the nationality of their birth.

When abouts did you say it ?

JohnnyFlash

I know which country I'd rather live in.

Necro

Mod:

Moving to Current Affairs

Wayne Jarvis

coinop wrote: »

Israel and the UAE normalize relations

*normalise*
Sorry to correct your spelling but I am a bit of a grammar nasi.

Odhinn

coinop wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53770859

I said it before and I’ll say it again: Israel is going nowhere. Sooner or later, all countries will come to formally recognize Israel’s right to exist. Maybe then all the Arabs born in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan will stop pretending to be “Palestinian” and accept the nationality of their birth.

#


The problem isn't 'Israels right to exist' within its 1967 borders, its its expansionist colonisation of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem etc.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

Odhinn wrote: »

#


The problem isn't 'Israels right to exist' within its 1967 borders, its its expansionist colonisation of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem etc.

Along with it's long list of other crimes. Worth reading through these sites for a good overview.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

https://electronicintifada.net/

https://www.ipsc.ie/

https://bdsmovement.net/

Quackster

Wayne Jarvis wrote: »

*normalise*
Sorry to correct your spelling but I am a bit of a grammar nasi.

The Poster's views stink but their spelling in this case is spot on. The '-ize' form is perfectly correct in British English. Indeed the Oxford English dictionary regards it as the preferred form.

James Brown

coinop wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53770859

I said it before and I’ll say it again: Israel is going nowhere. Sooner or later, all countries will come to formally recognize Israel’s right to exist. Maybe then all the Arabs born in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan will stop pretending to be “Palestinian” and accept the nationality of their birth.

They better keep their army well stocked. Israel has no friends. It has people that either need it or use it as a buffer.
With both their human rights records they're made for each other.

Irishman80

Oman and Bahrain will follow suit. We could be witnessing the start of peace breaking out in the Middle East.

Imagine, a couple of years ago, the media and foreign policy “experts” were telling us that the US recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel would set fire to the Middle East. I suppose these were the same people who advocated for war in Iraq.

Peregrinus

coinop wrote: »

Your nationality is the country of your birth. Simple. Unless...all those kids in Ireland born to Nigerian parents are not actually Irish after all...

So all the people who immigrate to Israel are not, in fact, Israeli at all? And Israelis (whether real Israelis or, in your view, pseudo-Israelis) who settle in the West Bank, outside the borders of the State of Israel, will have children who are not Israelis?

Seriously, you should engage your brain before you open your mouth.

coinop

Cynthia Spicy Rank wrote: »

Along with it's long list of other crimes. Worth reading through these sites for a good overview.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

https://electronicintifada.net/

https://www.ipsc.ie/

https://bdsmovement.net/

Lol you've been banging that same drum for over 20 years now and what have you achieved? Nada. The IPSC struggles to gather more than a handful of crusties at their meetings. Same old faces and getting older. BDS has been a dismal failure and its poster boy in Ireland, self-confessed drug dealer and woman beater Joe Loughnane, has been exposed and crawled back into his cave. Do you ever regret wasting so much of your precious life on this nonsense? You're on the wrong side of history. Every extra day in existence is a victory for Israel, and every day it becomes more accepted and normalised even by its former enemies.

coinop

coinop wrote: »

Lol you've been banging that same drum for over 20 years now and what have you achieved? Nada. The IPSC struggles to gather more than a handful of crusties at their meetings. Same old faces and getting older. BDS has been a dismal failure and its poster boy in Ireland, self-confessed drug dealer and woman beater Joe Loughnane, has been exposed and crawled back into his cave. Do you ever regret wasting so much of your precious life on this nonsense? You're on the wrong side of history. Every extra day in existence is a victory for Israel, and every day it becomes more accepted and normalised even by its former enemies.

Israel came into existence because of world (effectively the West) guilt due to the atrocities committed against those with the Jewish religion primarily during the aftermath of WW2, and somewhat due to prior centuries of discrimination.


However, Israels treatment of the Palestinians and their push into further areas for Livingspace is indefensible.

NIMAN

The news said last night that this couldn't have come about with Trump.

Will he get any credit in the media, or does it not fit the narrative?

coinop

Deleted User wrote: »

Israel came into existence because of world (effectively the West) guilt due to the atrocities committed against those with the Jewish religion primarily during the aftermath of WW2, and somewhat due to prior centuries of discrimination.


However, Israels treatment of the Palestinians and their push into further areas for Livingspace is indefensible.

I'm not going to waste time trying to educate you and retread old discussions that have occurred a thousand times before on this forum but please teach yourself about the Balfour Declaration back in 1917 before the Shoah.

coinop

coinop wrote: »

I'm not going to waste time trying to educate you and retread old discussions that have occurred a thousand times before on this forum but please teach yourself about the Balfour Declaration back in 1917 before the Shoah.

1917 when the British had a large empire, how did that work out for them? But, whats your point - that a country in 1917 considered creating a country in a place with a minority with a Jewish religion in a region controlled by a country that was about to be defeated in Ww1.

MontgomeryClift

Modern Zionism began in 1895 with Herzl's publication of Der Judenstaat. The first Zionist congress was held two years later.

Greta_Funberg

It's great news, and hopefully more countries to join the list.

Peregrinus

NIMAN wrote: »

The news said last night that this couldn't have come about with Trump.

Will he get any credit in the media, or does it not fit the narrative?

Or, is he in fact due no credit?

Let's be honest; neither Israel nor the UAE is dumb enough to do anything more than very short-term in reliance on Trump. He has a considerably less than 50% chance of still being President in 6 months' time, and he has said himself that if the Democrats win they will undo everything he has "acheived". Even at the best of times he's just not somebody on whose words or deeds anybody with a titter of wit would ever allow themselves to depend.

Whatever motivated the UAE to take this step, it is wildly unlikely to have been anything Trump said or did. It's probably best seen as a logical and expected development in a trend of normalisation or relationships that has been operating slowly but for a long time.

Peregrinus

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Modern Zionism began in 1895 with Herzl's publication of Der Judenstaat. The first Zionist congress was held two years later.

This is true. But it's fair to say that modern Zionism might not have acheived what it did, when it did, but for the Holocaust and the European reaction to it.

LuasSimon

After watching thousands of Palestinians been killed over the years on TV the vast vast majority of people want nothing to do with Israel , Palestinian children living in poverty throwing stones at the Israeli army who stop food getting in get shot dead with infa red top range rifles costing thousands of dollars . There isn’t an ounce of humanity in Israel . Sad it’s allowed happen in our world in 2020

Wanderer78

LuasSimon wrote:

After watching thousands of Palestinians been killed over the years on TV the vast vast majority of people want nothing to do with Israel , Palestinian children living in poverty throwing stones at the Israeli army who stop food getting in get shot dead with infa red top range rifles costing thousands of dollars . There isn’t an ounce of humanity in Israel . Sad it’s allowed happen in our world in 2020

I know of an Israeli who is an activist for Palestinian rights, so there is hope

storker

LuasSimon wrote: »

There isn’t an ounce of humanity in Israel .

In fact there are plenty of people in Israel who are unhappy with their government's policies towards the Palestinians, but do carry on with the kind of generalisations and group guilt-assignment that helped give rise the the problem in the first place... :rolleyes:

The Unbearables

NIMAN wrote: »

The news said last night that this couldn't have come about with Trump.

Will he get any credit in the media, or does it not fit the narrative?

Of course not.

Orange man bad. Repeat after me, orange man bad.

RandomName2

Odhinn wrote: »

#


The problem isn't 'Israels right to exist' within its 1967 borders, its its expansionist colonisation of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem etc.

In truth it's both.

Most of the Arab world have formally stated they want to see the destruction of the Israeli state. We know that if they had been crushed militarily, any time they had been invaded by their neighbors, that that would have been the likely conclusion.

Arab grievance is motivated by Israeli treatment of Palestinians. But, being honest, we know that it is also motivated by large-scale Jewish immigration to lands that have significant religious and cultural significance to Arabs. From my point of view, all peoples should have a right to their own state. Ensuring the existence of the only Jewish state in the world is important. It is unfortunate that it happened to be in land promised to two different peoples, but there's not much point crying over spilled milk (particularly when much of that milk was spilled by the Third Reich).

Israel essentially has the position of 'in for a penny, in for a pound' and doesn't care about its neighbors' views on what they do with the West Bank. Why should they? Their neigbors don't even believe a Jewish state should exist, and actively pretend that it doesn't.

It is telling that this divide is religious in nature, featuring countries that don't give two shíts about human rights.



Light green are countries that reject anybody using an Israeli passport.
Dark green rejects anyone who even has an Israeli stamp on their passport or who has ever obtained an Israeli visa.

Execute the gays one day, complain about the treatment of Palestinians on the grounds of human rights the next? Right.

But thankfully things are beginning to change. The most important changes were Egyptian and Jordan recognition of Israel (though many assassination attempts of the leaders of those countries were a consequence of that). In 2002, the Arab League proposed recognition of Israel by Arab countries as part of the resolution of the Palestine-Israel conflict as part of the Arab Peace Initiative. The lifting of the ban on the Israeli flag and national anthem from events like the International Judo Federation Grand Slam in Abu Dhabi in 2018 (with even Israeli Minister of Culture and Sports Miri Regev being allowed to attend the event) is also the kind of good sign we should be looking for. This naturally has been followed by the full normalization of relations between the two countries.

The Arab states have used Palestinians as a proxy in their ideological war, but once they abandon that war, they may actually be able to start exerting pressure on Israel to back off the West Bank. Just as Jewish people should have a right to their own state, so should Palestinians.

James Brown

Irishman80 wrote: »

Oman and Bahrain will follow suit. We could be witnessing the start of peace breaking out in the Middle East.

Imagine, a couple of years ago, the media and foreign policy “experts” were telling us that the US recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel would set fire to the Middle East. I suppose these were the same people who advocated for war in Iraq.

Wiping out the Palestinians and any other dissenting voice would bring a peace. Akin to the peace Hitler would have brought had he succeeded in butchering all dissenting voices.

James Brown

The Unbearables wrote: »

Of course not.

Orange man bad. Repeat after me, orange man bad.

Orange man racist.
Orange man opportunist.
Orange man corrupt.

I think 'bad' is under selling it.

SixtaWalthers

This deals only give one message that power and economic benefits matter for the world. Human rights don't even exist. How it is easy to grab anyone's land and start calling it their own place. Israel President also said he suspended annexation for a short time. They didn't end it. By the way, it is only stance of arab leadership. I don't know exactly what is the mood of arab street.

Irishman80

Bowie wrote: »

Wiping out the Palestinians and any other dissenting voice would bring a peace. Akin to the peace Hitler would have brought had he succeeded in butchering all dissenting voices.

This moment doesn't wipe out the Palestinian voice. Instead, it completely ends the possibility of Israel annexing the West Bank. For good.

It also removes a major hurdle towards achieving a two State solution - recognising the right an Israeli State to exist in the Middle East and getting Arabs and Israelis around a table to discuss these issues.

This is a major step to a peaceful Israel-Palestine future. A good day for moderates who want to find peace. A bad day for extremists who want to wipe each other out.

Richard Hillman

coinop wrote: »

Lol you've been banging that same drum for over 20 years now and what have you achieved? Nada. The IPSC struggles to gather more than a handful of crusties at their meetings. Same old faces and getting older. BDS has been a dismal failure and its poster boy in Ireland, self-confessed drug dealer and woman beater Joe Loughnane, has been exposed and crawled back into his cave. Do you ever regret wasting so much of your precious life on this nonsense? You're on the wrong side of history. Every extra day in existence is a victory for Israel, and every day it becomes more accepted and normalised even by its former enemies.

Imagine if everything calms down in the Palestine/Israel, they would be lost, needing to find a new cause. I'm sure they will still take their trips to Gaza/West Bank for god knows what they do be up to when they are over there.

James Brown

Irishman80 wrote: »

This moment doesn't wipe out the Palestinian voice. Instead, it completely ends the possibility of Israel annexing the West Bank. For good.

It also removes a major hurdle towards achieving a two State solution - recognising the right an Israeli State to exist in the Middle East and getting Arabs and Israelis around a table to discuss these issues.

This is a major step to a peaceful Israel-Palestine future. A good day for moderates who want to find peace. A bad day for extremists who want to wipe each other out.

You mean annex 'further' and 'for now'. BiB disagrees with your analysis.

A major hurdle to the two state solution is BiBi and his followers refusing the two state solution. Moving from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem was another.

It's window dressing so the UAE can save some face for now.

Irishman80

Bowie wrote: »

You mean annex 'further' and 'for now'. BiB disagrees with your analysis.

A major hurdle to the two state solution is BiBi and his followers refusing the two state solution. Moving from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem was another.

It's window dressing so the UAE can save some face for now.

No. The Trump administration will not greenlight any annexation of the West Bank now. The Biden administration has also come out and stated they will not greenlight any annexation. The annexation plan is dead in the water.

People just have to look to the groups opposed to this deal: Iran, Turkey, Hamas, Hezbollah, right wing Jewish settlers. And look at the groups welcoming the deal: The US, UK, Germany, France, the UN, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, left-wing pro-Palestinian Jewish groups like J-Street, and many Gulf States.

Saudi Arabia hasn't commented yet but I expect if Bahrain follow suit and normalise relations, that will equate to a tacit approval of the Arab-Israeli normalisation process.

The path to a peaceful two state solution is now a firm reality. It's a good day.

James Brown

Irishman80 wrote: »

No. The Trump administration will not greenlight any annexation of the West Bank now. The Biden administration has also come out and stated they will not greenlight any annexation. The annexation plan is dead in the water.

People just have to look to the groups opposed to this deal: Iran, Turkey, Hamas, Hezbollah, right wing Jewish settlers. And look at the groups welcoming the deal: The US, UK, Germany, France, the UN, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, left-wing pro-Palestinian Jewish groups like J-Street, and many Gulf States.

Saudi Arabia hasn't commented yet but I expect if Bahrain follow suit and normalise relations, that will equate to a tacit approval of the Arab-Israeli normalisation process.

The path to a peaceful two state solution is now a firm reality. It's a good day.

He agreed to 'suspend' it, for now. His words. Will they be giving back the land they annexed already?
Will Israel answer for it's war crimes?

I see a lot of the same countries supported the war in Iraq, WOMD and the like. Hardly authorities on playing it straight. The same people trade with China and Putin, stellar quality outfits.

This is about money and the UAE saving face after selling out the Palestinians.

Israel needs to withdraw and apologise, pay reparations, then engage in true two state talks of substance.

c.p.w.g.w

Anti Fat Aktion wrote: »

Not true. Once you get out of the sad old crustie and student activist circles, most people don't care.

Sure even if you criticise Israel you may get labelled "anti-Semitic"

Irishman80

Bowie wrote: »

He agreed to 'suspend' it, for now. His words. Will they be giving back the land they annexed already?
Will Israel answer for it's war crimes?

I see a lot of the same countries supported the war in Iraq, WOMD and the like. Hardly authorities on playing it straight. The same people trade with China and Putin, stellar quality outfits.

This is about money and the UAE saving face after selling out the Palestinians..

That's just a political statement from him trying to shore up the right wing settlers, which won't work.

In the context of a two State solution, I'd hope both sides get a good bit of what they want while making compromises.

I'm a firm believer in people answering for war crimes - whether that's Isrealis, Palesinians, Americans, British, or Irish people who committed them in the North. In the context of finding peace, this is often not a possibility. I'll still call out these disgusting people who commits these.

I agree with you on Putin and China. The world should shun them. Irish leaders are pathetic in their response to these - a shame on our country.

These deals will always be about competing interests - economic, security, culture, trade, religious, etc. There's nothing surprising about that.

James Brown

Irishman80 wrote: »

That's just a political statement from him trying to shore up the right wing settlers, which won't work.

In the context of a two State solution, I'd hope both sides get a good bit of what they want while making compromises.

I'm a firm believer in people answering for war crimes - whether that's Isrealis, Palesinians, Americans, British, or Irish people who committed them in the North. In the context of finding peace, this is often not a possibility. I'll still call out these disgusting people who commits these.

I agree with you on Putin and China. The world should shun them. Irish leaders are pathetic in their response to these - a shame on our country.

These deals will always be about competing interests - economic, security, culture, trade, religious, etc. There's nothing surprising about that.

The leader of Israel said 'suspend for now'. Trump flip flops and couldn't give a rats arse.

What compromises would you think the Palestinians could make?

Hardly an endorsement of this leading to a peace is it?

RandomName2

Bowie wrote: »

Hardly an endorsement of this leading to a peace is it?

Sticking with the thread, what problem do you have with UAE recognizing Israel?

Odhinn

RandomName2 wrote: »

Sticking with the thread, what problem do you have with UAE recognizing Israel?

It's normalising relations with a state acting outside the UN charter by its colonisation of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem etc.

Sean.3516

Zebra3 wrote: »

How fascist of you to be telling the descendants of Israeli ethnic cleansing what they should be.

There is no such country as "Palestine".

There is a region known as Palestine in which nation states such as Jordan, Egypt and Israel are located. There is no nation state called "Palestine".

Sean.3516

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Not quite so simple. I wasn't born in Ireland, but I lived there for almost my entire childhood and adolescence. I have no national identity other than Irish.

Your nationality is determined by citizenship. Someone ceases being an immigrant when they become a citizen of the country they immigrated to.

James Brown

RandomName2 wrote: »

Sticking with the thread, what problem do you have with UAE recognizing Israel?

They are legitimising Israels actions or in the least giving an 'all's forgiven' which would be fine if Israel had made moves towards a real peace.
Also it gives the false perception that the Arab world are okay with how Israel behaves. Trump was selling it like two sides have become friends. That will be the spin.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

There is no such country as "Palestine".

There is a region known as Palestine in which nation states such as Jordan, Egypt and Israel are located. There is no nation state called "Palestine".

If I were an Israeli spinbot I'd try something a little less on the nose than 'sean'

James Brown

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Your nationality is determined by citizenship. Someone ceases being an immigrant when they become a citizen of the country they immigrated to.

What about dual citizenship and birth certificates?

Edgware

Bowie wrote: »

He agreed to 'suspend' it, for now. His words. Will they be giving back the land they annexed already?
Will Israel answer for it's war crimes?

I see a lot of the same countries supported the war in Iraq, WOMD and the like. Hardly authorities on playing it straight. The same people trade with China and Putin, stellar quality outfits.

This is about money and the UAE saving face after selling out the Palestinians.

Israel needs to withdraw and apologise, pay reparations, then engage in true two state talks of substance.

The Palestinians sold out again by their Arab "brothers". When will the penny drop withthem that with good negotiators a compromise could be made with Israel that would guarantee peace and prosperity for both peoples.
Or do they believe that no bread is better than half a loaf.
Egypt Jordan Lebanon U.A.E. are all happy to deal with Israel. The Palestinians are running
out of friends. But never fear Rich Boy Barrett and Posh Boy Murphy can always gather a few scum for a solidarity protest

Sean.3516

Deleted User wrote: »

Israel came into existence because of world (effectively the West) guilt due to the atrocities committed against those with the Jewish religion primarily during the aftermath of WW2, and somewhat due to prior centuries of discrimination.

No,no,no,no,no.
It's the height of historical revisionism to suggest that Israel owes its existence as a country to Western guilt after the Holocaust.
European Jews started migrating to Palestine (a province of the Ottoman Empire) and purchasing land over 50 years before the Holocaust happened.

In 1917 when the British took over the region, the Balfour Declaration set out a goal of setting up a Jewish state and an Arab state in the region. The British proposed a two state solution as early as 1936.

Yes, the Holocaust was a catalyst for the UN Partition of 1947 that allowed Israel to declare independence but it wasn't as if the West just decided to plant to Jews there right after the Holocaust and kick out all the Arabs. There was already a substantial Jewish presence there.

Deleted User wrote: »

However, Israels treatment of the Palestinians and their push into further areas for Livingspace is indefensible.

You mean their treatment of Arabs who never bothered setting up a state when they were given the right to by the UN? Who declared war instead?
The Arabs who didn't fight Israel were allowed to stay. It was only the ones who assisted invading armies from surrounding countries that were forcibly removed.

Sean.3516

Bowie wrote: »

What about dual citizenship and birth certificates?

Yes, dual-nationality is a thing.

Odhinn

Sean.3516 wrote: »

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

You mean their treatment of Arabs who never bothered setting up a state when they were given the right to by the UN? Who declared war instead?
The Arabs who didn't fight Israel were allowed to stay. It was only the ones who assisted invading armies from surrounding countries that were forcibly removed.

A nonsense. I'd suggest reading



https://www.amazon.co.uk/1948-History-First-Arab-Israeli-War/dp/0300151128/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=The+Birth+of+the+Palestinian+Refugee+Problem+Revisited%27&qid=1597424650&sr=8-5
and/or
https://www.bookdepository.com/Birth-Palestinian-Refugee-Problem-Revisited-Benny-Morris/9780521009676?ref=grid-view&qid=1597424749183&sr=1-1


(You might get a cheaper copy secondhand)

James Brown

Edgware wrote: »

The Palestinians sold out again by their Arab "brothers". When will the penny drop withthem that with good negotiators a compromise could be made with Israel that would guarantee peace and prosperity for both peoples.
Or do they believe that no bread is better than half a loaf.
Egypt Jordan Lebanon U.A.E. are all happy to deal with Israel. The Palestinians are running
out of friends. But never fear Rich Boy Barrett and Posh Boy Murphy can always gather a few scum for a solidarity protest

BiBi and the current Israel regime have no interest in compromise. As soon as BiBi the criminal gets sent down we might see some hope.
No, decent moral people will always fight against genocide and unwarranted terrorism.