Mum died, Dad non composmentis

Sonic the Shaghog

I've said it before but after you're last post your sisters are just trying to keep the inheritance away from the HSE

You'll lose your own house, wage and job, yet when your dad died you'll be told rent a room somewhere as they "want their share" of the home house

Your sister freeloading off her partner and the eejit paying everything for her is vomit inducing

If they offered to draw up a contact now and get the home house signed into your name and offered to pay you even €50 each a week it would be something

Sardonicat

Sonic the Shaghog wrote: »

I've said it before but after you're last post your sisters are just trying to keep the inheritance away from the HSE

You'll lose your own house, wage and job, yet when your dad died you'll be told rent a room somewhere as they "want their share" of the home house

I know someone this happened to! Yeah, your sisters couldn't be more blatant if they tried. All the more reason, OP, to take the time to remind yourself what a truly, honest decent person you are. Your Mum would be very proud of everything you are doing and trying to do to make sure your Dad is well cared for. You've nothing to feel guilty about. Be proud of yourself here.

august12

Sonic the Shaghog wrote: »

I've said it before but after you're last post your sisters are just trying to keep the inheritance away from the HSE

You'll lose your own house, wage and job, yet when your dad died you'll be told rent a room somewhere as they "want their share" of the home house

Your sister freeloading off her partner and the eejit paying everything for her is vomit inducing

If they offered to draw up a contact now and get the home house signed into your name and offered to pay you even €50 each a week it would be something

House will be assessed as part of the HSE fair deal and could cause a huge financial burden for the OP, not sure I would go this route. Full time care seems to be the best option for both the OP and dad.

Sonic the Shaghog

august12 wrote: »

House will be assessed as part of the HSE fair deal and could cause a huge financial burden for the OP, not sure I would go this route. Full time care seems to be the best option for both the OP and dad.

No, what I'm saying is if the sisters had said to the OP from day one "if you are willing give up work and care for dad in the home till he dies we want you to have the home house and we'll each give you X amount per week cash to top you up on carers"

Then it would have been something approaching a reasonable offer of asking the OP to be a carer but what they are at is piss taking and I believe only trying to keep him out of a home to save the HSE taking X amount of the house value from inheritance

I don't rec the OP become a carer.

December2012

Even if the sister sign a waiver saying that they would disclaim their share of inheritance, so that the OP would be entitled to the whole house, bear in mind that the OP might not get the whole house in the end. Lets say, the OP did the caring for 2 years, but after that Dad needed nursing home care, and had to be admitted to a nursing home, then his asset, the house, will have a charge against it. Meaning that whenever it is sold the OP would not actually get all of the house, because all of Dads debts, (eg funeral costs) will have to be paid out of his estate, which is his house.

I know thats not the way the OP is thinking, but I am pointing it out just in case it was a thought.

Electric

December2012 wrote: »

Even if the sister sign a waiver saying that they would disclaim their share of inheritance, so that the OP would be entitled to the whole house, bear in mind that the OP might not get the whole house in the end. Lets say, the OP did the caring for 2 years, but after that Dad needed nursing home care, and had to be admitted to a nursing home, then his asset, the house, will have a charge against it. Meaning that whenever it is sold the OP would not actually get all of the house, because all of Dads debts, (eg funeral costs) will have to be paid out of his estate, which is his house.

I know thats not the way the OP is thinking, but I am pointing it out just in case it was a thought.

Just on this, if your Dad moves into a nursing home as part of the Fair Deal scheme it is not necessarily the case that the family home would have to be sold in order to pay for his care.

Your principal residence is included as part of the financial assessment for a maximum of 3 years (22.5%) of the value of the property.

The Irish Times had a article a while back about someone who sold their home before going into a nursing home as part of the Fair Deal and the outcome was that the entire proceeds were up for grabs, whereas if it hadn't been sold the maximum amount to be paid would have been the 22.5%.

OP, I'd suggest calling Citizens Information, they offer advice on all aspects of the social welfare system.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

sunshinew

From one of your responses it sounds like you are offering to stay living with your father but you don't want to quit your job, you want a carer to look after him during the day...
You're still making a huge sacrifice with this option too. You'll be coming home from work and straight into caring duties, every evening, every wkd, while holding down a job. Just something to keep in mind as your sisters sound so awful with their plans right now. Your sister telling you to be careful with your money!!! It's not just the loss of income, it's your time and mental well being. You indicated you would like a relationship and a family of your own some day. You're at the prime age for that to happen over the next few years. Sacrifices like these are more than just monetary.
I'd definitely recommend you see a counsellor, even if you think you are coping. It's great to just spend an hour talking things through and getting your thoughts straight in your head in preparation for any difficult conversations with your sisters.

StereoSound

Sonic the Shaghog wrote: »

I've said it before but after you're last post your sisters are just trying to keep the inheritance away from the HSE

You'll lose your own house, wage and job, yet when your dad died you'll be told rent a room somewhere as they "want their share" of the home house

Your sister freeloading off her partner and the eejit paying everything for her is vomit inducing

If they offered to draw up a contact now and get the home house signed into your name and offered to pay you even €50 each a week it would be something

No they want their share of the house. They offered to pay 25% of the family home bills... What a joke... They were screaming at me today that they cannot get time off their jobs because they have their own expenses, and one of my sister's is planning on buying a house and she insists she has to work 5 days a week to qualify for her mortgage. .....But it's ok for her if I loose mine.... The past month I have had 4 days to myself out of 30. I have been dragging around my 80 year old father in the car with me everywhere I go. After all of this is settled or forced for another word, I have a feeling me and my sister's are going to have a long term falling out.

Tork

Whether you give up everything to become a full time carer or stick to your guns, you're going to end up with the same result. A long term falling out is inevitable and your sisters aren't going to share the burden of caring with you. You might as well take the route that suits you best.

qwerty13

I’m not meaning to be mean OP, but it was pretty clear from the start that the only viable option is a nursing home for your father. The more you post, my god it is absolutely the only way forward.

You can try working and caring for your Dad in the evenings and weekends, but you’re going to burn out very quickly. I think you know by now that your siblings are going to be next to no help with that. Do you really think they’ll take on overnights or weekends?

Another point of consideration is that your Dad is (I’m sorry) violent and prone to wander. Will a HSE or private carer deal with that? As in will either put up with it, or charge a lot more (which I think would be justified). I’m not being patronising when I say that I’m not sure that you genuinely know how much of the day-to-day difficulties were kept from you by your mother.

I 100% believe that your father needs specialist care, and that you’re not equipped to give that, and that you shouldn’t ruin your life to be his carer. I apologise if that sounds terrible, but I’ve seen the effect on my best friend. She is, as I said in an earlier post, completely broken - and she did all of the caring role, and had next to no social life for most of 17 years. And then the siblings who ‘visited’ kicked up blue murder at her being left a very modest house in vast need of repair.

My friend ended up paying an agency out of her own money to get a carer in for about 10 hours a week. Just to allow her time to do practical things - like you, she had no option other than to bring her father everywhere with her before that, and it confused and upset him. I’m reasonably sure that cost her around €25 an hour. And her siblings contributed zero to that.

I should have mentioned cost of a home care team in my first post. Let’s say the cost is 25 per hour.

If you had one Carer from 7am till 7pm (12 hours) that’s 2100 euro a week. That’s a whopping 109,200 euro a year. If you go for 24 hours care that’s 218,400 euro for a year.

A nursing home under the fair deal scheme will never be anywhere near that figure and could probably be paid from the cash your mum has left rather than putting a lien on the house. I know you said your mum left a substantial figure but based on the above, is it really enough to sustain a home care team?

You can contact fair deal and they should happily explain the system and costs to you.

Pistachio19

I think it's time you took your dad on a visit to one of your sisters houses and once he's sitting down, leg it. Have your stuff packed in the boot of your car and go back to your own place. Or get them to visit your dads house and then go. Your sisters are horrible. They need a dose of reality so leaving him in their care might soon make them realise that it's not acceptable to expect any one of you to give up your lives to stay with your dad. He needs to be looked after 24/7 and none of you can do that. While a nursing home isn't on anyone's wish list for when they get old, the main thing is your dad will be safe (no chance to wander off), fed, warm and looked after by people who are trained to do so. Start gathering the info required by fair deal now and get the ball rolling. As for falling out with your sisters - sounds like you'll be better off without the selfish cows in your life.

Fakediamond

StereoSound wrote: »

No they want their share of the house. They offered to pay 25% of the family home bills... What a joke... They were screaming at me today that they cannot get time off their jobs because they have their own expenses, and one of my sister's is planning on buying a house and she insists she has to work 5 days a week to qualify for her mortgage. .....But it's ok for her if I loose mine.... The past month I have had 4 days to myself out of 30. I have been dragging around my 80 year old father in the car with me everywhere I go. After all of this is settled or forced for another word, I have a feeling me and my sister's are going to have a long term falling out.

I’m really sorry to hear you’re going through such a tough time. I hope you have some emotional support for yourself.

While things are getting sorted, can you ask for some reasonable time off? Will they look after dad for a weekend/day/overnight? Their behaviour now is a glimpse of the future isn’t it? You’d be left as a 24/7 carer for 200e a week, and homeless at the end of it. I think you should tell them you need a break now, and they will have to step in for at least one day every week. I can’t remember if you said, up but how are you managing work at present?

25% Of the household bills? That’s just downright insulting.

Because your dad is not able to make decisions, and there is no family unity in planning his future, I think he can be made a ward of Court (or something like that). That takes the decision out of your hands. Speak to a solicitor about the options because you are dealing with unreasonable people who will not work on a reasonable compromise.

StereoSound

Have a feeling that I may have to take drastic action here and give my sisters a date I am going to move out of the family home and back into my own so they will have no choice but to get themselves back down to the house. Is this too drastic ? What if I left and they didn't bother to even show up at the house afterwards ? Can't leave my Dad there on his own. This is probably a bad idea.

august12

StereoSound wrote: »

Have a feeling that I may have to take drastic action here and give my sisters a date I am going to move out of the family home and back into my own so they will have no choice but to get themselves back down to the house. Is this too drastic ? What if I left and they didn't bother to even show up at the house afterwards ? Can't leave my Dad there on his own. This is probably a bad idea.

How far away do they live from your dad's place??
This must be so stressful, it's stressful even when all siblings are on the same page,

Princess Calla

StereoSound wrote: »

Have a feeling that I may have to take drastic action here and give my sisters a date I am going to move out of the family home and back into my own so they will have no choice but to get themselves back down to the house. Is this too drastic ? What if I left and they didn't bother to even show up at the house afterwards ? Can't leave my Dad there on his own. This is probably a bad idea.

To be honest I think this is something you have to do. They've shown their true colours and I think at this stage your relationship with them is pretty much gone, they have shown you absolutely no respect.

Though what I would do is have my stuff in the boot of my car, when one of them "does their duty" and pops in for 3 minutes I'd say I'm off to the shops.... Your sister is there with your dad and you have escaped.

Edited to add... I also think you should book a gp appointment, go through it with them, really emphasis that you are overwhelmed, anxious stressed etc. And you just can't be a full time carer...... (there's not many people that can manage it, fair play to them that can, but I know I wouldn't last a week)

I really do feel that a home is the fairest option for this.

Neyite

StereoSound wrote: »

Have a feeling that I may have to take drastic action here and give my sisters a date I am going to move out of the family home and back into my own so they will have no choice but to get themselves back down to the house. Is this too drastic ? What if I left and they didn't bother to even show up at the house afterwards ? Can't leave my Dad there on his own. This is probably a bad idea.

I'd probalby invent a plumbing job in your own house that needs doing - you need to return to be there when the repair gets done, can they come over for the day. Then later that day tell them that you are taking a break and that they will have to cover. When they howl that they cant disrupt their lives etc "don't be ridiculous, you've demanded that off me for months, you can manage a few days" and turn your phone off. If not for the pandemic, I'd book a week in Spain altogether.



But that is the nuclear option. And could irreparably damage your relationships with those sisters though. If you don't want to do that, or want to go for a less explosive option, what about family mediation. You all sitting around a table with a mediator might help you get heard and some sort of discussion going?

JeffKenna

Neyite wrote: »

I'd probalby invent a plumbing job in your own house that needs doing - you need to return to be there when the repair gets done, can they come over for the day. Then later that day tell them that you are taking a break and that they will have to cover. When they howl that they cant disrupt their lives etc "don't be ridiculous, you've demanded that off me for months, you can manage a few days" and turn your phone off. If not for the pandemic, I'd book a week in Spain altogether.



But that is the nuclear option. And could irreparably damage your relationships with those sisters though. If you don't want to do that, or want to go for a less explosive option, what about family mediation. You all sitting around a table with a mediator might help you get heard and some sort of discussion going?

I dunno, I think regardless, this is going to end in a falling out unless he rolls over and does what they want. I wouldn't be afraid to go for the nuclear option on account of that.

Princess Calla

JeffKenna wrote: »

I dunno, I think regardless, this is going to end in a falling out unless he rolls over and does what they want. I wouldn't be afraid to go for the nuclear option on account of that.

Yeah I agree with this. They have shown that they are extremely selfish.

They will not voluntarily take on the care themselves, so there will be "kicking and screaming".

It's obvious that they want to wash their hands of the situation and as soon as the op objects he will be the worst in the world.

I do think the options are make a stand or be a doormat.

Neyite

JeffKenna wrote: »

I dunno, I think regardless, this is going to end in a falling out unless he rolls over and does what they want. I wouldn't be afraid to go for the nuclear option on account of that.

True, it's certainly heading that way, but the OP may want to have a final attempt at being amicable. Down the line, it means hurt feelings at being left out of nieces/nephews milestone events, not being invited to siblings for Christmas etc, maybe not being told if one of the wider family are seriously ill. That sort of thing. It's a big step so if there's other ways to resolve this that can be tried before that point, it's worth exploring.

When is the meeting to discuss your Dad’s health OP?

Pistachio19

I honestly do not think they will co-operate if you tell them you are going home. By giving them notice you are giving them time to guilt you into staying and they won't show up. I'd tell them you need an hour or so on Saturday to visit your house, collect post, open windows to air your house etc. Have your stuff in your car and when they arrive just go, and then you can tell them you won't be coming back as you drive off. They might go ape **** but that's not your problem. After a couple of days you can let them know you are willing to discuss your father's care at a neutral location but you will not be bullied into anything - no moving out of your own house, no leaving your job, etc. At this point I wouldn't even consider doing a rota as no doubt they'll just disappear and leave you to it again. Either use your dads money to pay for carers (extremely expensive) or find a nursing home place - let them decide which option they wish to pursue.

LegacyUser

Hi Op

I am so sorry to hear about your situation and condolences on your mums sudden death.
I went through a similar experience and can relate to what you are going through. My mum died suddenly and we were left to deal with dad who was not in full mental health.
We all had different ideas of what care dad needed and what we were each prepared to do. It was a very stressful time and we all fell out with each other. On top of that trying to hold down a full time job, live our lives and care for our father was extremely stressful.

I think the only option is to put your dad into a home. No matter what agreement you might eventually come to with your siblings to share the workload and care for him at home, how can you be sure that they won't go back on their word and you will be left with it all anyway, as they know you have a conscience and genuinely care what happens to him. Do your homework and find a nice home where he will be well cared for. In the end my dad had to go into a home and he was much better off there. He was looked after 24/7 by nice staff, was well fed and engaged in activities and had companionship during the day. It will be daunting to stand up to your siblings and get it sorted but it is in his best interest. Do not be bullied by them and definitely tell the public health nurse everything, don't try to sugar coat how your father is. Do not say to the nurse that you can look after him in any way at all, as they will leave you to it.

Best of luck with it all, and please take time to look after yourself and your grieving process for your mum too.

StereoSound

visitorssss wrote: »

Hi Op

I am so sorry to hear about your situation and condolences on your mums sudden death.
I went through a similar experience and can relate to what you are going through. My mum died suddenly and we were left to deal with dad who was not in full mental health.
We all had different ideas of what care dad needed and what we were each prepared to do. It was a very stressful time and we all fell out with each other. On top of that trying to hold down a full time job, live our lives and care for our father was extremely stressful.

I think the only option is to put your dad into a home. No matter what agreement you might eventually come to with your siblings to share the workload and care for him at home, how can you be sure that they won't go back on their word and you will be left with it all anyway, as they know you have a conscience and genuinely care what happens to him. Do your homework and find a nice home where he will be well cared for. In the end my dad had to go into a home and he was much better off there. He was looked after 24/7 by nice staff, was well fed and engaged in activities and had companionship during the day. It will be daunting to stand up to your siblings and get it sorted but it is in his best interest. Do not be bullied by them and definitely tell the public health nurse everything, don't try to sugar coat how your father is. Do not say to the nurse that you can look after him in any way at all, as they will leave you to it.

Best of luck with it all, and please take time to look after yourself and your grieving process for your mum too.

Years ago when Dad first got sick in 2010 we did try him in a day care center to give my mum a break for 2 days a week. He ran out of the place screaming, he doesn't really see himself as an 80 year old man. I don't think he is aware of how old he is. If you sat him somewhere with a bunch old elderly people he would be very expressive about how he would feel about it. He does cry sometimes when we try to get him to do stuff which is sad to see. Even before Mam died he did this. He acts like some things is a major chore when they are really not.



I guess trying to take an 80 year old man out of the comfort of his own home will never be easy. He has been there since 1976 when he bought the house. He was a medical professional himself before retiring in 2009. A few months later he got ill unfortunately which is unfair, lovely retirement..... I remember my mother having to do so much adjustment for him when he got sick, she retired from work herself so she could look after him. All the research for help for Dad we did together back in those days. He had a speech therapist that came to the house which he literally kicked out of the house, next time she arrived he runs upstairs and locks himself in the bedroom so that was the end of that. He refused all help when it was offered to him when he first got sick. We had issues getting him to doctors appointments as he wouldn't go. Me and mam back in those days had to literally drag him up screaming and roaring so the doctor could assess his progress. His Doctor wouldn't prescribe him any medication unless he saw him so you can imagine the fun we had with that.



If we were to put Dad into a nursing home, he would probably feel he is on his way to prison, the stress might trigger something in him. Home care is option one I am pushing for. Failing this then what choice would we have but to put him into nursing home care.


I will tell you what makes me feel so sorry... Back in 2016 I remember sitting with Mam and she was really upset. Dad was extremely difficult kicking and throwing things around the house. She said to me "What am I supposed to do for the rest of my life, I cannot keep doing this until the day I die". It's so sad for me to think that this is exactly what happened... Breaks my fckn heart everytime.. I love you Mam and so sorry for your stress the last years of your life, I wish I could have done more but it's too late now

scarepanda

Your last line in that post is a hard one to read. It also made me ask, if you want to be your mam in 10 years time? Do you want to be in that position of looking after your dad and in the process giving up your while life and then having to rebuild when he has passed? You can be dam sure your sisters won't be of any help whatsoever, no matter what tales they spin you.

Also, in home care, via the HSE/Wheelchair association etc will only give your dad a number of slots a day, he would be lucky to get 2 half hour slots. How would you manage the rest of the day when your at work? You might get hours from more than one source, but I suspect numerous people coming and going all day wouldn't be something beneficial to your Dad. Your other in home care option is to hire a carer, from what I know most are from the Philippines and its very hit and miss as to how good or bad they are.

You might be surprised about how your dad settles in a care home at this stage, it is different than going on respite. Someone I know, who's mother was wandering day and night, climbing out windows, confused etc had to be put into a home and to everyones surprised has settled very very well. She's actually happier in there than she was for years before hand.

It’s heartbreaking, stereo

Does your dad have medication to calm him down?

blackbox

It sounds to me like the sisters have an eye on the inheritance and don't want it spent on caring for your father.

Tork

That last line is hard to read but you can't change the past. Even if you'd understood better what your mum was going through, the end result was probably going to be the same. You'd have helped out more, I'm sure, but your mum would still have carried most of the caring duties. One thing I've noticed is that you're talking a lot about things that happened a few years ago. 2016, 2010 etc. Your father's condition will have deteriorated in the meantime, right? Does he have a GP who sees him from time to time and is he on any medication to calm him down? I wouldn't rule out the nursing home option, based on what your father did 10 years ago. He isn't the same person now. That is why it is important that he be assessed by somebody who isn't emotionally involved in your situation.

LegacyUser

I understand you would find it difficult if your dad went into a home and it's not something that he wants. My father was the same and it broke my heart at first that he had to go into the home, but believe me it was the best solution. I wont deny it wasn't hard at the start for everybody but he settled into it and it was the best place for him to be.

Day care will only partly help the situation and if you require somebody there all day, will be very costly. Sometimes you have to take a hard decision in someones best interest even if it doesn't seem very palatable unfortunately. Please at least review the option of the care home with the public health nurse before writing off the idea.

LegacyUser

OP, that is so sad. I'm very sorry for your loss, and also for the difficulties you're having at such a sad time. It's very distressing for all of you, and I can see that your sisters want to honour your mother's wishes, but I'm wondering have they actually witnessed the difficulties involved in your father's care? If they have, I can't understand how or why they are being so utterly unreasonable. To me they sound like selfish wagons.

As others have suggested, I would also recommend looking into a nursing home.
Nursing homes offer security, and have staff 24/7 that can support each other if a resident is being difficult.

I've been witness to two families with loved ones needing full time professional care. There were a few people that never had any involvement in caring for the loved ones, but they shouted the loudest when the family members that provided all the care wanted to put them into a home. Both started off with care at home, between family members and care staff coming to the house, sadly it wasn't enough.

It's hard going through all this, and to have your siblings fighting against you.
Do you have support OP? Is there an aunt or uncle or other relatives that know what's going on that you could talk to?
Would it be possible for them to try and reason with your siblings? Get them to calm down and see that they should be showing support, instead of dictating to you?

My heart goes out to you, you are long due a break so that you can rest and grieve. As others have mentioned, you'll end up completely burnt out.
A few years ago, I lost a close relative. Within months after their sudden death, two of us under the age of 35 with no prior medical conditions, ended up quite ill in hospital. It was brought on from the shock and grief, and we didn't have the added stress of caring for someone full time. Please mind yourself, OP. You need to take care of yourself too.