2021 superbike prices

fat bloke

Looking at youtube, outside of the "paid promotional" reviewers of dubious objectivity, there seems to be quite a backlash against the new swathe of super-road-bikes, led by the likes of the Specialized SL7. Some very interesting parsing and deep diving into the usual claims around the usual old chestnuts of stiffness, aerodynamics, compliance, speed and weight.

It's not that long ago at all that a proper top spec bike was around 5 to 6 thousand euro whereas now virtually every manufacturer's top banana is double that (and let's not get into the fact that the bike of yore was a lot lighter too...:rolleyes:).

Canyon, once the carbon refuge of the canny bargain hunter, and while still cheaper, can't quite justify the Super-Value crown anymore. -What's going to happen from here though, are we simply on a never-flattening upward trajectory. I've done well with my bike-purchasing, keeping on top of my research and gotten lucky either cos I could get a deal through someone I knew, or an ex-stock one size only sale model, or a timely donedeal 2nd hand diamond in the rough. Those opportunities are always there I guess if you're willing to put in the mouse-work.

Is anyone here buttering up their credit-union clerk for a 12 grand (not including pedals) bicycle loan for 2021?!

All My Stars Aligned

The prices, even of the lower end bike seems to climb year on year, maybe due to the popularity of cycling?
I guess so long as people keep paying these prices manufactures are going to keep charging whatever they can get.

Cee-Jay-Cee

With the announcement of the reduction from 5 to 4yrs for the BTW scheme which means I’m eligible next year again, I’ve been looking at what’s available and even the lower/middle range stuff seems to have jumped in price and that the spec level for those bikes has reduced slightly (using non series of FSA chainsets etc) I was browsing the €2500 range of bikes and I’m not that impressed with what you get for that price anymore and I may just keep my 4 year old bike for another while yet.

My good bike (2015 S-Works SL4 Roubaix upgraded to R8050 Di2) will remain my good bike for many more years. It’s matt black with black decals and so should age more slowly than brighter colour scheme bikes and to be honest there is nothing out there that I’d want to replace it with if money was no object.

Tony04

I would disagree.

Ok theres always going to be a high price for the latest marginal gain especially in the 'sky/ineos' era and as much as I hate to say it to a certain extent , not majorly, cycling is a pay to win sport.

On the other hand while the price of canyons etc has gone up you still have other brands like vitus radon rose etc

Mountain bikes are at there best price point ever 1 x 12 hardtails with air forks for 1k€ and decent full sus bikes under 2k€

At the end of the day it's the consumer that has the power to shape the market. For example take the new deore groupset absolutely banging for the price, why? Because srams sx eagle was taking up to much of the market share.

fat bloke

One thing about the bike market, like any other market I guess, is that somewhere amongst the shelves heaving with product lies a best-bang-for-buck hidden bargain. I remember being told by a bike shop owner back around 2014 that he reckoned it was the TCR Advanced Pro 1, and if you went to a bike race around then it seemed lots of racers saw or were told the same thing. Near-as-dammit top spec TCR frame, same as the SL except for the integrated seatpost, with ultegra mechanical and deep-ish carbon wheels, for about 3300. I think that model remained a solid buy since then. Apparently for next year Giant are putting some more distance between the advanced pro and the advanced SL, presumably to justify the price differential, and using a higher grade carbon fiber for the SL. So unfortunately you can't, for your 3 ish grand, claim that your frame is pretty much the same as the top one any more.

Anyway, personally with my bike buying trajectory, I don't really see myself making a significant purchase for a couple of more years. Be interesting to see what happens in the meantime. Hopefully the SL7 sells by the bucketload and I'll pick up a nice pre-loved Donedeal jobbie. (56 please if anyone's shopping in the meantime )

Chips Lovell

fat bloke wrote: »

Is anyone here buttering up their credit-union clerk for a 12 grand (not including pedals) bicycle loan for 2021?!

Nope. There was a time when top banana models from a load of brands would have be drooling but for around three or four years now, I've found very few that appeal. Lots of ugly bikes with needless gimmickry.

Went to upgrade my race bike this year and ended up buying this frame, which is a few years old at this stage:



Between the frame, a new groupset and finishing kit, it was a little over two grand all in and I'd have it any day over most of the 10k rigs being flogged right now.

If I had ten grand burning a hole in my pocket it would powermeters on all the bikes (I'm sick of swapping cranks around) and wind tunnel testing of TT position.

MojoMaker

You left the Fred Bag on for the photo Chips :pac:

Chips Lovell

MojoMaker wrote: »

You left the Fred Bag on for the photo Chips :pac:

LOL. That's not my actual bike. Black bar tape on a white bike? Do you really think I'd sink so low?

JimmiesRustled

I do find it funny that Specialized have come out with the slogan "uncompromised design". As others have stated, does that mean the SL6 and Venge were compromised? Also, this is probably an unpopular opinion on here but, threaded BB's on Carbon frames can be garbage. They're bonded in and can, in some instances, come away from the frame as the frame is Carbon with an aluminium insert.

I never much understood the requirement for OSBB only for Specialized to sell all/most of their bikes with a 24mm crank. Themselves and Trek are, by changing to a threaded BB, admitting they can't operate within the tolerances required to make press fit work. Which in itself must be considered a compromise.

Ultimately pressfit is a better/cleaner solution. Going with a threaded bottom bracket also won't eliminate the perceived issues associated with pressfit which include creaking.

I don't have massive experience with Carbon but spent a good few years designing and machining bearing housings for pumps.

As for the remainder of the performance claims, I think we all know at this stage that that's all just marketing for the most part. If everything they said were to be believed well then the SL7 would be infintiely stiffer, infinitely lighter, infinitely more aero and compliant than the SL4 from 2014. Also, in regards to marketing, why is the Venge gone? We keep getting told that Aero > Light weight which I believe but you've now gotten rid of the most "aero" bike on the market from last year (according to Specialized) and made some very minor adjustments to the Tarmac.

This, as I think one of the youtube commenters pointed out, is likely due to buying power and the fact that they will be ordering more of the same frame/mould so they basically get more out of the factory in the east. Again though it seems strange that, even in podcasts last year, the guys at the Specialized wind tunnel were basically saying they'd choose the Venge over the SL6 in more or less every instance.

Aside from all of that, the move to proprietary parts seems to be a bit more worrying. I think Luescher Teknik mentioned it in his latest video. If it continues you can imagine that BMC parts will only be compatible with BMC, Trek with Trek (Bontrager) and so on. Which, as he mentions isn't an issue if you buy a new model every few years but for me an €8,000 investment in a bike would need to see me through a good few years. All this to say that I just can't see the value in bikes as they stand at the moment. People commenting on bikes between €3,500 - €4,000 price point and saying there's serious value to be had are living in a very different world to me anyway.

a148pro

I think all their claims must be viewed alongside their desire to have something new and essential to sell each and every year and the ready existence of a wealthy market of 50 - 70 year old males who only love parking their 11 grand bike at the triangle in enniskerry of a saturday morning

Occasionally spotted at laragh too but it's a bit more of an effort to get there and, as they are further from comfortable and wealthy suburbia they're a little less comfortable there. More the 5 - 6 grand actual cyclist market

It's basically 20 - 2 - D syndrome, for those not racing at least

Crocked

Prices have gone nuts and surely not sustainable before the consumer shy's away.

If I've read correctly the SL7 is heavier than the SL6 and the "aero gainz" come from the bars and wheels. It's also disk only.

Not sure forcing everyone to go disc is the right way to go, well for manufactures it is, but I think consumers will start shouting in a few years about wanting rim back like they have for threaded BB. Mainly due to manufacturers unable to get them QA right and people are pissed off with mounts not being flat, the brakes randomly starting to rub and their head melted listening to the squealing from them

MojoMaker

5-6 grand is the actual cyclist market now? :eek:

a148pro

Nah, actual cyclists with 5 grand bikes

In fairness I'm not sure there are many bikes at that price, more kind of 3,800

I'm generalizing obv but there is a trope out there, and no doubt an sl7 will turn up shortly

fat bloke

The likes of the SL7, and perhaps a lot of the super super bikes, are a bit of an anomaly because they seem to be priced greater than the sum of their parts. Usually the off the peg build beats the Johnny Cash one-piece-at-a-time built-it-at-home model because a major manufacturer can buy thousands of parts cheaper than you can buy one. But the likes of say the specialized builds - a venerable club racer I know went into the new spesh shop in Dublin and was looking at some ten grand sworks with dura ace and started querying where the price was coming from. How much is a dura ace groupset? Ok, so how much is that set of wheels? Grand, and the saddle if I wanted one? Ok so how much is the frame? And the costs were not at all adding up favourably to justify the final "So why is it 10 grand then?" question .

Anyway, I've always had a suspicion that nobody pays full RRP for these sorts of bikes. The only people I know with them either got them because they work for or in the bike industry, or know someone really well who works for or in the bike industry! That and the very very odd well-heeled, rapha-clad, Laragh retiree who can put nonchalantly put his hand to 10 grand without reaching very far.

ednwireland

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

Ultimately pressfit is a better/cleaner solution. Going with a threaded bottom bracket also won't eliminate the perceived issues associated with pressfit which include creaking.

oooh dont search for hambini on youtube he doesnt rate the construction of most frames with pressfit BB's

just waiting for my new cannondale to start !

magicbastarder

so how far back would you have to go, to find a pro level bike which is matched by say a €2k bike now?
10 years? 5 years?

Mr. Grieves

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

With the announcement of the reduction from 5 to 4yrs for the BTW scheme

Where'd you see that?

fat bloke

magicbastarder wrote: »

so how far back would you have to go, to find a pro level bike which is matched by say a €2k bike now?
10 years? 5 years?

Aw man, good question. But for comparison, I've a 2012 Cervelo R5 with 10 speed 2nd gen sram red and mavic exalith SLR's. I took it to a bike shop for a bit of a checkover and the crusty ol' mechanic tasked with taking it out back was agog at how light it was - calling his colleague over to have a lift and a giggle. But that was the craic for that generation of bikes. It was shortly after that aero was "in" and "lightness" all but forgotten about. That cervelo is probably a good kilo lighter than some of the new so called top end "climbing" bikes, and 2 kilos lighter than the upper-mid range aero disc stuff that's routinely porking out at over 8kg.

Your standard 2 grand showroom bike of today, if it's disc braked and aero, must be 9kg easy, and sure the Trek Emonda SL6 pro for 2021 is over 8kg FaChrisssakes and that's at a list of 3700 euro or something.

Were pro tour bikes 8kg plus 20 years ago even??!

wirelessdude01

Mr. Grieves wrote: »

Where'd you see that?

Was announced in the government's July jobs stimulus package.

I was chatting to my new neighbour before the lockdown, he had just moved back to Dublin after nearly twenty years in London, working in Canary Wharf.

When I told him I used to work in Canada Square pretty much above the Porsche dealership, he laughed and said that is now gone, it is a cycle republic.

If you think about that, it means the mega high earners in canary wharf aren’t buying Porsches anymore, they are buying bikes. It makes sense that the manufacturers help relieve these guys of their money by making over priced high spec top end machines.

Funny you mention 20 years ago fat bloke as that is exactly when the current 6.8kg lower weight restriction for racing came in if I recall correctly.

Mr. Cats

Great thread. Sorry if this is dragging off topic, but how much would you need to spend today at minimum to get a 6.8kg bike from an established manufacturer? ie excluding Chinese knock off components etc

Tony04

ednwireland wrote: »

oooh dont search for hambini on youtube he doesnt rate the construction of most frames with pressfit BB's

just waiting for my new cannondale to start !

Nah hambini himself admits pressfit bbs are better than threaded, but has found manufacturing tolerances in the bike industry are awful, bearings are circular so the bb should be perfectly circular, but in the case of a creak your frames bb wasnt manufactured perfectly circular, hes found boardman and cannondale to be worse so doesnt say much about there manufacturing quality. Where as look and time to separate french companies who manufacture their own frames in Morocco according to hambini never have a problem as they're manufactured to a really high standard hence if money wasnt an issue for me I'd be buying a look or a time. Interestingly hambini rates open mould chinese frames like hongfu and dengfu.

Same thing with carbon fiber while its undoubtedly better than steel and aluminium and easier to work with than titanium the manufacturing standards are awful in the bike industry hence you hear of frame failure compared to carbon fiber in the aerospace industry where nothing faulty is produced because of high safety standards.

Tony04

Mr. Cats wrote: »

Great thread. Sorry if this is dragging off topic, but how much would you need to spend today at minimum to get a 6.8kg bike from an established manufacturer? ie excluding Chinese knock off components etc

2400
https://www.rosebikes.com/rose-x-lite-four-ultegra-2661720

Tony04

fat bloke wrote: »

Your standard 2 grand showroom bike of today, if it's disc braked and aero, must be 9kg easy, and sure the Trek Emonda SL6 pro for 2021 is over 8kg FaChrisssakes and that's at a list of 3700 euro or something.

Expect anything from trek to be at least 10% usally 20% overpriced. Same with cannondale and specialized. What's more none of these brands make their own frames your just paying for the marketing.

at1withmyself

magicbastarder wrote: »

so how far back would you have to go, to find a pro level bike which is matched by say a €2k bike now?
10 years? 5 years?

In 1997 Treks top OCLV Road bike equipped with Dura Ace & Spinergy wheels was 3300 Irish punts. So say approx 4250 euro, equivalent now is about 10k so more then double the price over 23 years, considering electronic gearing and carbon fibre parts I don't think it's that bad. Plenty of great bikes for 7k kwith top spec. which is closer to equivalent I think?

at1withmyself

Tony04 wrote: »

Expect anything from trek to be at least 10% usally 20% overpriced. Same with cannondale and specialized. What's more none of these brands make their own frames your just paying for the marketing.

Your also paying for all the research & development. Without the likes of trek and specialized, look, colnago etc pushing bounderies then the likes of canyon and Rose would simply not exist at the level they are currently at. Technology drips down and someone has to cover costs. This is why they are more expensive.

Diarmuid

at1withmyself wrote: »

Your also paying for all the research & development. Without the likes of trek and specialized, look, colnago etc pushing bounderies then the likes of canyon and Rose would simply not exist at the level they are currently at. Technology drips down and someone has to cover costs. This is why they are more expensive.

I don't think so. The component manufacturers are the ones doing the R&D, Bike manufactures are glorified assemblers.

a148pro

Tony04 wrote: »

2400
https://www.rosebikes.com/rose-x-lite-four-ultegra-2661720

Jesus that is exceptional value - can't quite figure out from the page - can you have di2 at that price as well?

How is it so cheap?

a148pro

a148pro wrote: »

Jesus that is exceptional value - can't quite figure out from the page - can you have di2 at that price as well?

How is it so cheap?

If you click on the select version drop down on the right you can choose etap, di2 etc. 3k for di2.

Tony04

at1withmyself wrote: »

Your also paying for all the research & development. Without the likes of trek and specialized, look, colnago etc pushing bounderies then the likes of canyon and Rose would simply not exist at the level they are currently at. Technology drips down and someone has to cover costs. This is why they are more expensive.

No imo your paying for the cost of outsourced manufacturing and sponsoring pro teams as far as I'm concerned. Giant and merida also definitley push as much boundaries as the brands you mentioned, but are reasonably priced as they produce their own frames as well as other brands.
Also why couldn't brands have a model with a slightly dated design at a decent price and still flog there new innovations at the high end? Wouldnt work because it devalue their high end stuff as the so called 'innovations' arent that major.
To be fair its hard to decipher who is and isnt innovating, but the majority of innovations do seem to come from component manufacturers rather than frame manufacturers.
In regards to canyon they do seem to be doing more r and d now, the hover bar etc. But personally I think their price hike has matched their sponsorship of pro tour teams if you like a 'it's in the tour' tax if you like.

Chips Lovell

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

Also, this is probably an unpopular opinion on here but, threaded BB's on Carbon frames can be garbage. They're bonded in and can, in some instances, come away from the frame as the frame is Carbon with an aluminium insert.

That's the theory, but the practice is that inserts coming away from frames is rare, but poor build quality on press fit bottom bracket shells means that endless fiddling trying to find the right combination bottom bracket and retaining compound is quite common.

at1withmyself

Diarmuid wrote: »

I don't think so. The component manufacturers are the ones doing the R&D, Bike manufactures are glorified assemblers.

Eh they manufacture the frames which need the R&D, this costs money. To call them glorified assemblers is too generic for all manufacturers, some of them do lot of developing, might not always be the best development but regardless this costs money

JimmiesRustled

Chips Lovell wrote: »

That's the theory, but the practice is that inserts coming away from frames is rare, but poor build quality on press fit bottom bracket shells means that endless fiddling trying to find the right combination bottom bracket and retaining compound is quite common.

I'd have more confidence with bike manufacturers to create a press fit bb than a bonded insert for a threaded bb and that's not saying much.

You'll have the same issues with threaded. Misalignment, creaking, concentric etc. Everyone seems to remember great things about threaded BB's all because we mostly rode them growing up. Next to all of these were in alu or steel frames where the formation of the ope for the BB was and still is much easier than the formation of the same ope in carbon. The bearing seats are machined out on alu and steel while carbon is created with the seats which leads to issues.

That's not even getting into the fact that you may have a 386 crank. As standard most threaded BB's are Ø24mm with 68mm width. You now need adaptors/spacers for the length as well as a specific bottom bracket.


The problem isn't the fact that specialized and trek are going back to threaded, although I personally have issues with it, It's the fact that there are so many "standards" of bottom bracket. BSA, ITA, BB30, PF30, BB386 Evo, BB86, BB92, OSBB, SRAM DUB, T47.

Every single one claim to be better than the last and now all of a sudden we're back where we more or less started and apparently that's part of the R&D we're having to fork out for? Are they going to turn around in a year or two and tell us that square taper bottom brackets, light bikes and skinny tires are all faster?

Chips Lovell

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

Everyone seems to remember great things about threaded BB's all because we mostly rode them growing up.

They're not that ancient. There's loads of people (me included) riding bikes with threaded BB shells. I know it's anecdotal evidence but it's anecdotal evidence based on current experience rather than nostalgia.

For me anyway, nobody has yet improved on Ultra-Torque. I'd say it's around 14 years old now. Cups you rarely, if ever have to replace. Bearings last an age. Single bolt crank mounting. A doddle to swap between bikes.