Conservatism and Grouthink

cyllyn28

As of today. 197 people have died in Greece, 117 Albania, 123 Croatia, only 41 in Lebanon. I have taken these numbers from the John Hopkins Covid-19 map. They are historical facts that will not change. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html



The numbers are not being hidden from either the public or medical specialists. Some countries the mortality is in the low hundreds and in other countries it's in the tens of thousands.


The logical thing to do, the sane thing to do, is to inquire as to what they are doing differently in the low mortality countries, and adopt those practices. And this is not happening. As if the statistical evidence is hidden behind a magical wall, they can't see through, or that there is a group conspiracy to ignore reality.


This now historical fact. The John Hopkins University of Medicine has the historical facts, but the medical profession of the US, which is a high mortality country are not responding to the facts. The facts as to why there is such a great disparity mortality rates will emerge.



So...Am I witnessing a large group having a mass hallucination...

CBear1993

When you put it like that it is crazy. But if we're singling out the US, would you agree that they are largely a population of idiots, even the intelligent ones at times? I am not blaming them, as they have grown up in a very strange country, with brainwashing media attempts from all angles.
People laugh at China & Russia for their propaganda from our Western world POV but the land of the free and opportunities, "f*ck yeah america yeah awesome" bald eagle stuff is basically the same.

It's sad, those "covid parties" are probably a marker of just how crazy the world is these days.

Great thread btw.

Hannibal36

CBear1993 wrote: »

When you put it like that it is crazy. But if we're singling out the US, would you agree that they are largely a population of idiots, even the intelligent ones at times? I am not blaming them, as they have grown up in a very strange country, with brainwashing media attempts from all angles.
People laugh at China & Russia for their propaganda from our Western world POV but the land of the free and opportunities, "f*ck yeah america yeah awesome" bald eagle stuff is basically the same.

It's sad, those "covid parties" are probably a marker of just how crazy the world is these days.

Great thread btw.

I would take issue with the idea that Americans are idiots,i personally think they are far more informed about most issues.Europeans think they are informed,Americans are more informed and they know more of what is going on in real life,Europeans are generally more naive.

What we are seeing here with Banks and vulture funds swallowing up Irish properties,leaving lots of Irish homeless has being going on in the USA for over 50 years,they are ahead of the curve on a lot of issues that are relatively new here.

They get offered little to no voting options,then when they pick one from a terrible twosome they get vilified as if they embody everything about the person they voted for,when reality is they are always trying to pick the best from a bad lot.

CBear1993

Is it really all that bad? You don't see too many of them living here or in Europe, maybe I just don't meet them in my social circles.

Would it be a fair reflection to say that with all the moaning/running down some of them do about it, they tend to just move internally to other states?

Sorry, off thread a tad.

quokula

Hannibal36 wrote: »

I would take issue with the idea that Americans are idiots,i personally think they are far more informed about most issues.Europeans think they are informed,Americans are more informed and they know more of what is going on in real life,Europeans are generally more naive.

What we are seeing here with Banks and vulture funds swallowing up Irish properties,leaving lots of Irish homeless has being going on in the USA for over 50 years,they are ahead of the curve on a lot of issues that are relatively new here.

They get offered little to no voting options,then when they pick one from a terrible twosome they get vilified as if they embody everything about the person they voted for,when reality is they are always trying to pick the best from a bad lot.

Umm, I'm not sure the second two paragraphs of your post support the first paragraph very well

Hannibal36

quokula wrote: »

Umm, I'm not sure the second two paragraphs of your post support the first paragraph very well

That would be if you are to assume the common American has any voice in shaping policy which he does not,and he understands this better in America than here,that we are simply pawns of the ruling class,its less understood in Europe.

CBear1993

How so? Would argue that a lot of people here are fully aware of ongoings in politics and corruption. Can't say the same for mainland Europeans.

cyllyn28

Obese Child wrote: »

WRONG.

197 deaths have been reported by Greece, 117 Albania, 123 Croatia, only 41 reported by Lebanon.

Are you implying they're lying? And John Hopkins are being fooled.



Basically, I do not believe they are lying. And no one in authority is accusing them of lying, no one in authority is even acknowledging the numbers.


I have done my best to confirm the low mortality rates. I can actually tell you what the doctors are doing differently in the low mortality countries. I can tell you precisely what doctors in some of the low mortality countries, because I have made contact. They are using different medications and they have opinions on the medical treatment in the high mortality countries.



Something it took me a long time to discover is conservatives value conservatism over all else, over the truth, and they're whole aim in life is to stop something, that appears to all rational and empirical analysis to exist only in their imaginations.. But I have never fully understood them. Are they willing to let vast numbers of people die for conservatism, including themselves. Or do they live in a fantasy world, where nothing is ever real just the conservatism.


As a group, they are simply not getting away with it this time.

Hannibal36

CBear1993 wrote: »

How so? Would argue that a lot of people here are fully aware of ongoings in politics and corruption. Can't say the same for mainland Europeans.

I would say we top the polls for naivety worldwide,just look how many posters here daily post about restrictions and how necessary they are etc etc. completely forgetting that Leo Varadkar our leader at the time clearly gave the ok for the BLM matter protest right in the middle of said pandemic because it was such an important social issue.

We have destroyed countless businesses and lives already to curb the virus,the Gardai were policing us going up the road from our homes,but BLM protest is such an important issue it trumps all this,clearly they knew the virus wasn't everything it was made out to be.

The signs are obvious of corruption in this right now and that is why we are last to open because we have the most corrupt government and the most naive populace in Europe.The government right now is having the time of their lives in the bond market on all our future generations dime and not a squeak from anyone anywhere.

cyllyn28

CBear1993 wrote: »

How so? Would argue that a lot of people here are fully aware of ongoings in politics and corruption. Can't say the same for mainland Europeans.

It depends on what you mean by "corruption". If you put a very conservative person in charge of a development agency, and gave them resources. How would you expect them to interpret their role. Would they see it as their mission to stop development. Would they believe that was what their job was to do, to take the resource given to them to ensure no development took place. Think about it. Assuming incompetence and corruption, are just assumptions, there is often very little evidence of corruption, but a kind of repetitiousness in the waste of resources, as if deliberate. As if the destruction of resources was to stop some imagined progress.

i_surge

Obese Child wrote: »

Very naive to take these figures at face value at such an early stage. John Hopkins are just regurgitating. The historical facts are yet to be written.

Despite this conspiracy/nit picking angle, the wider point still stands and is a good one. The sheer magnitude of disparity between how well or dismally things have been handled (so far...) in various countries is something that needs to be looked at fully and shows the weakness of blind conservatism for sure.

Has common sense fallen by the wayside to emotion?

cyllyn28

Obese Child wrote: »

Very naive to take these figures at face value at such an early stage. John Hopkins are just regurgitating. The historical facts are yet to be written.

It's not just the numbers. I know what doctors are saying in the low mortality countries, and they are simply saying, the high mortality countries are using the wrong medication. The geography is important in the historical reasons for the differences in medication, and the mortality pattern is similar to 1918. The main drugs being used to treat the influenza existed before 1918, and many drugs used in medicine today existed before 1918. In 1918, there were different choices of drugs used, and in 2020 the choices are much the same.



Was the conservative medical establishment using the wrong drugs in 1918, and through a system of institutional conservatism, this possibility was ignored, bringing us to the present, and a repetition of 1918......I would have difficulty in believing this, but I have to accept the evidence...

i_surge

cyllyn28 wrote: »

It's not just the numbers. I know what doctors are saying in the low mortality countries, and they are simply saying, the high mortality countries are using the wrong medication. The geography is important in the historical reasons for the differences in medication, and the mortality pattern is similar to 1918. The main drugs being used to treat the influenza existed before 1918, and many drugs used in medicine today existed before 1918. In 1918, there were different choices of drugs used, and in 2020 the choices are much the same.



Was the conservative medical establishment using the wrong drugs in 1918, and through a system of institutional conservatism, this possibility was ignored, bringing us to the present, and a repetition of 1918......I would have difficulty in believing this, but I have to accept the evidence...

Is public policy and compliance to it not the primary factor in mortality?

Choice of treatment must have a small effect relative to the degree of contagion which is either small or massive.

cyllyn28

i_surge wrote: »

Is public policy and compliance to it not the primary factor in mortality?

Yes..but....The veil and social distancing are bronze age medicine. Disputes with Jesus and the Pharisees, are over these rules. The deeper historical reasons are, Jews in different parts of the Levant followed different rules. The Gospel stories are presented in such a way to conceal the fact he is breaking the law of the Pharisees, by touching the sick, the dead, and not social distancing. The Moses story is similar. The story of the Passover is most likely a mythification of an influenza epidemic, those who do not follow the rituals die. Quarantine among other things is one of the rituals. If you read text carefully, it's kind of a prescription.



Social distancing, works, but it is not a complete solution, at most it only slows the numbers of severe infections, it cannot stop them.



Another little revelation about the bible. When Jesus is healing the sick, does it ever say he's doing it with his bare hands.

Choice of treatment must have a small effect relative to the degree of contagion which is either small or massive.

No...A choice of treatment can have a radical effect. I'm not going to name the specific drugs involved, but two different drugs can get the same result through different mechanism. And in certain circumstances a relatively harmless drug can have a lethal effect. And this seems to be a problem with Covid.


An NHS doctor published in the Lancet a successful treatment of a Covid patient. He was hyper careful, and did not give the patient medicine that might typically be given. The doctor treated the patient with just two single doses of two drugs. Basically it is that doctors opinion, that the drugs normally being used are not safe for use with a Covid infection.

cyllyn28

Obese Child wrote: »

Pipe. What drugs are the so-called low mortality countries using that are leading to better outcomes for the sick?

I am absolutely not saying what they are. A reason for a certain degree of secretiveness in medicine, is to stop the public doing harmful things to themselves. These drugs are poisonous at high doses. They are also poisonous if used chronically.



Anyway it is not the point.

i_surge

cyllyn28 wrote: »

Social distancing, works, but it is not a complete solution, at most it only slows the numbers of severe infections, it cannot stop them.

I don't know what scripture has to do with any of this, only to show that common sense is age old.

You led with facts and the stark reality they show is that country policy is THE thing.

New Zealand/Vietnam vs USA/Brazil/UK/Sweden

One recipe works and the other doesn't...time to start learning from best practice even if the cat is out of the bag and looking at the learnings for political science.

cyllyn28

Obese Child wrote: »

Incredible response. You are ducking and diving legitimate questions to advance your own conspiracy theories.

I'm deadly serious about this. Anyone who can't find out on their own, shouldn't find out. I'm not posting what I know to be dangerous medications on the internet where everyone can see it.



It is simple as that.



In the bronze age, they could in fact do some reasonably sophisticated chemistry. In hospitals they use morphine and other opiates, the preparation of these drugs is not massively different from the methods in the bronze age. For making some of the more dangerous drugs they used, recipes in texts would often be encrypted, to stop every idiot from figuring them out and poisoning a village. If you could crack the riddles, you could be considered safe enough to use the drugs safely. And modern medicine works like that too. The use of Latin and Greek in terminology, was to stop idiots, and many of the foundational texts were in Latin and Greek.



They didn't have the internet in the bronze age, but the past was not so different as the present.


I really bad thing that could come out of this epidemic is members of the public taking medications they shouldn't.






And.....this is psychology thread.

Gremlinertia

This thread certainly descend rapidly locked