Definitions of farming

Fluppen

Hi folks.
I have a question regarding farm transfer and stamp duty. My father transferred the farm to me four years ago everything was organised and transferred and we were eligible for the reductions and reliefs. The only thing missing was the agricultural qualification so I paid the stamp duty. I have now completed my green cert within the 4 years and am applying for a refund of the stamp duty. Suddenly my solicitor and accountants are uncomfortable because revenue has recently included an exclusion for horse breeding and they worry that any farm based mainly on the keeping of horses will not be considered a farm.
I have 98 acres all in grass, 16 horses and some hens for eggs. I make and sell hay, and sell grass through grass livery for a further 7 horses. I also sell a few eggs but on a very small scale when I have extra. All the land is maintained by being grazed and/or cut for hay. I am not a horse breeder or racehorse trainer and I do not run a riding school. I have Irish sport horses and ponies, 2 of the ponies are connemaras and qualify as rare breed. I breed a few foals every few years as replacements to keep the herd fresh.
My reason for having the horses is to provide mental health services to people incorporating horses. At present this brings in a lot less money than the sale of hay and grass through livery. I have no off farm job, unless the mental health services are considered off farm even though they happen on the farm with the horses.

So, finally to the question. Is the above considered farming? In my my mind it is as the maintenance of the land, farm and livestock is essential to provide my products which are grass and mental health services.
For the sake of the stamp duty I could buy in some sheep or cattle to sell on but I have no facilities for them and would really prefer not to.

In the current climate I could really do with getting that stamp duty back so, if the above isn't seen as farming, what is the best way to make some money and be seen as a farmer in the eyes of the revenue service when I don't have handling facilities for any livestock other than horses?

893bet

Do you have a flock number for the hens?

Do you have a herd number for horses? Is there such a thing?

Do you declare all the income from the farm and make a profit?

Do you spend 50 percent working week farming? (I assume yes as you have no off farm work, this is surely in your favour?)

Is your solicitor a specialist on farm tax? Def worth engaging with a specialist.

Fluppen

893bet wrote: »

Do you have a flock number for the hens?

I have a herd number for the farm and the hens are registered under poultry rules

Do you have a herd number for horses? Is there such a thing?

There is no specific herd number for horses but I am registered with the department as an equine premises and I have passports for the horses as per department rules.

Do you declare all the income from the farm and make a profit?

I declare all farm income and barely scrape a profit. The issue here is that the biggest income is from grass livery which is an equine enterprise and may not be seen as farming. Without that the hay I sell would only just cover the cost of the hay I use.

Do you spend 50 percent working week farming? (I assume yes as you have no off farm work, this is surely in your favour?)

I spend all my time on the farm, the question is whether they would consider what I am doing with the horses as farming . If they don't then I guess I'm on the farm doing an alternative enterprise.

Is your solicitor a specialist on farm tax? Def worth engaging with a specialist.

He's not a specialist but has experience, I have also asked various people in teagasc and others have been asked on my behalf but nobody seems sure.

I have my green cert and my herd number. I also get the basic payment and used to get ANC payments but no longer do as I don't have enough young stock.
Thanks for the input and thoughts.

893bet

If you have a green cert, herd number, basic payments then I don’t think anyone can argue with your farmer status.

You should be showing a profit though to be farming it “commercially”.

Fluppen

I am showing a profit if they accept the income from the horses. I suppose what I need to find is someone who has been in a similar situation. The definitions on Revenue.ie aren't particularly helpful unless you fall into what they see as traditional farming which to them is cattle and sheep.

alps

Why is your accountant nervous of applying for the stamp duty? What have you to loose, even if the application was to be refused?

Fluppen

alps wrote: »

Why is your accountant nervous of applying for the stamp duty? What have you to loose, even if the application was to be refused?

It's mainly the solicitor who is nervous as he recently saw a client audited. The stamp duty was clawed back with penalties as revenue felt the family in question shouldn't have applied for the young trained farmer relief of the stamp duty. I don't know the exact details of that case as he couldn't tell me but there were also horses involved.

longgonesilver

How many acres of gay do you sell every year?

Fluppen

longgonesilver wrote: »

How many acres of gay do you sell every year?

That depends on the year. During the forage shortage and drought I sold 50 acres to neighbouring farms. Most years I make 20-25 and sell half that to the contractor who makes the hay. In separate transactions so its in the paperwork and accounts and not just a swap of hay for labour

wrangler

Fluppen wrote: »

That depends on the year. During the forage shortage and drought I sold 50 acres to neighbouring farms. Most years I make 20-25 and sell half that to the contractor who makes the hay. In separate transactions so its in the paperwork and accounts and not just a swap of hay for labour

I find accountants too cautious and have ignored mine on several issues in the past a few times.
I have to sign a form at the end of the year absolving him of all risk even before I copped on to his caution , so it's no skin of his nose if there's a problem with my decisions.