Car subscription model instead of full ownership?

Mr Meanor

I thought with the subscription for add ons in Tesla and now with BMW looking at it
https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-heated-seats-and-more-as-a-subscription-no-really
How long do you think it will be that before out right ownership of car plus all it contains, that is, the option to buy, will no longer be an option?

Del2005

It's already like that in the UK and USA, their ads never list retail price just monthly cost, but we are a good bit behind. As soon as autonomous cars become viable then why would you want own one.

BMW going back to bad old days of not giving a radio as standard in a premium car.

If people are willing to pay they'll continue to do it and Tesla has proven that people are willing to pay stupid money for a feature that doesn't even work, so what will people pay for a feature that does work?

It will kill the 2nd hand value of cars if the features on it can be removed like Tesla have done, granted he got it back but as the article says there's a lot of questions about features that can be remotely activated and more importantly deactivated.

Dravokivich

I don't see how it's any different to what a significant amount of people do already. Financing a car on the basis of trading it in at the end of term, to aid financing another car. If you don't intend on keeping it, constantly getting a loans and switching cars on them isn't too dissimilar to renting or "subscribing."

Manic Moran

I don't think you have read the linked article, Drav. In fairness, until I read it, I thought it meant something like "Car as a Service" similar to Audi Select or Book by Cadillac. (Pay a monthly fee, drive whatever you want from the lineup, change cars a few times a year depending on your needs. Eg an SUV for a family ski trip, a small sedan for commuting etc)

If I'm at the BMW dealer and they tell me that the cars' features are available only on a subscription service, I'm immediately walking away. Damned if I'm going to pay X many dollars a month so that the car's seat heaters will work, especially given I tend to keep my cars for double-digit numbers of years.

There may be some cost-of-manufacture benefits to installing a number of these things by default and then disabling them unless 'purchased', but I will bet (a) hacking/modding will result in some being re-enabled anyway, and (b) those savings will not be passed onto the consumer.

biko

Paying monthly subscriptions for features in my car is not an option for me.
If I bought the car I own everything in it.

Besides the security concern that an outside influence can turn things off and on in my car.

galwaytt

biko wrote: »

Paying monthly subscriptions for features in my car is not an option for me.
If I bought the car I own everything in it.

Besides the security concern that an outside influence can turn things off and on in my car.

true.

Except in a Tesla of course. GLWT.

bcklschaps

Its a good idea OP. But we more or less have it already with commercial leasing for Companies and PCP for private consumers

We don't have have leasing for individuals (just short term rentals) ... and if we ever do, you have to imagine, it will be about as expensive as rental.

Eg. 3 yr rental = full RRP of the car, kinda stuff.

(I am using an example here of a compact car (fiesta) that I enquired about renting on a long term contract...might be a bit different for bigger segment cars)

Del2005

bcklschaps wrote: »

Its a good idea OP. But we more or less have it already with commercial leasing for Companies and PCP for private consumers

We don't have have leasing for individuals (just short term rentals) ... and if we ever do, you have to imagine, it will be about as expensive as rental.

Eg. 3 yr rental = full RRP of the car, kinda stuff.

(I am using an example here of a compact car (fiesta) that I enquired about renting on a long term contract...might be a bit different for bigger segment cars)

This is another subscription to get the features in the car enabled on top of the purchase/lease price you pay the dealer. If you want adaptive headlights or heated seats you pay a separate subscription to the manufacturer.

Subscription services are good for the seller not the buyer.

cruizer101

Its a terrible idea. BMW will install heated seats in cars but you will then have to pay extra in order to be able to use the heated seats. Its wasteful at a manufacturing level and also its wasteful over the life of the car to be adding extra weight that serves no purpose unless the owner is willing to pay more.

Can you even be considered to be an owner if you can't access hardware features that are installed.
Imagine buying a house but having to pay the developer everytime you wanted to have a bath.

Whatever about software services such as navigation or fancy adaptive cruise control but heated seats should be a heating element connected to a switch, done.

As for hacking to enable features, I wouldn't be so sure, whatever about rooting your android phone, installing/modifying software on a 2 ton lump of metal that goes 100km/h is risky territiory and good look with claiming from insurance in the event of an accident.

I hope it does not become the future, cars as a service fair enough (order an autonomous car on an app and it picks you up), but when I buy something I want to own every bit of it.

Del2005

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Like that dude who brought his Tesla in for a service and got it back with less features. The future is bright kids :pac:

I linked to that in my post. He got the features back, eventually.

The easy solution is for consumers to avoid the brands doing this but consumers aren't they are doing the opposite and paying more and more money to a car company for something that is never going to be available for the current generation of cars.

mikeecho

Just like ppl get their car mapped for more power, I'm sure there will be a market for unlocking features like heated seats etc.

But I think it's poor form for a manufacturer to be locking out features that are already installed.

bazz26

This is nothing new. The IT industry has been doing this for a few decades through Enterprise software licensing.

DaveyDave

Reminds me of the higher end computer processors that don't pass testing, they disable some of the cores and sell it as the lower spec version. Some people could flash a new BIOS to their motherboard to unlock the full processor.

kirving

cruizer101 wrote: »

Its wasteful at a manufacturing level

If anything, it's the opposite. For some automotive products my company produce, there are over 50 slight variants of otherwise the same product. In that particular case it's due to wiring lengths and software for the most part, but it creates enormous overheads in every department.

Wiring looms are insanely complicated, and used to power every component directly. Adding an option to that would be insane, so they now tend to use more modular looms with communication busses like ethernet or CAN, with a trunk power line where possible, or even all combined to power-over-coax these days.

10-15 years ago, ECUs tended to do a single job. (ie: climate control ECU replaced the manual controls) but now the trend is to go for larger, more capable fusion ECUs that handle everything together on a single touchscreen.

From a manufacturing point of view, if the take-rates are reasonably high, I'd bet it's cheaper to build a single seat variant with a heater whether the customer asked for it or not. If the take-rate is low, you're saving more money by only giving it to those who ask for it.

Heated seats are say selected on the options list by 70% of people, so they get put in every car.

Then you're just left with a choice.

A) Say nothing about your lean manufacturing savings and leave the car with no touchscreen button to turn them on.

Offer the customer the option to turn it on and try to claw back another few quid from them, and let the second owner have the option of they want.

DaveyDave wrote: »

Reminds me of the higher end computer processors that don't pass testing, they disable some of the cores and sell it as the lower spec version. Some people could flash a new BIOS to their motherboard to unlock the full processor.

They do that in all kinds of industries really, and it's not a bad at all.

Off topic, but with camera lenses, that would be a common practice. You don't need 4 perfect pieces of glass in your camera lens, that would be extremely costly. Just like selecting a contact lens prescription, two bad lenses can be selected and combined to make one good lens.

Aside from theft, and safety, I'm now beginning to realise why manufacturers are putting cyber security measures on everything they possibly can. Won't be an easy job to hack it, and say goodbye to any warranty.

Seve OB

Mr Meanor wrote: »

How long do you think it will be that before out right ownership of car plus all it contains, that is, the option to buy, will no longer be an option?

not in any of our lifetimes anyway

bazz26

Well if the Greens got their way we would all be travelling in communal cars.

Henry Ford III

Anyone who keeps paying and paying is a fool.

Ties in with my perception of most BMW owners oddly enough.

cruizer101

Kevin Irving wrote: »

If anything, it's the opposite.

I understand your point about it being cheaper for manufacturer to have less options to simplify manufacturing but that doesn't necessarily me it is less wasteful, resources go in to making the heated seats it is wasteful for those resources to have gone in and to never be used because they are disabled by manufacturer.

Cheaper for manufacturer yes, and you can be sure any extra cost for the materials used will be built into the base purchase price so the consumer will have already paid for the hardware but will then have to pay extra to be allowed to use it. You in effect do not own all of the car you have paid for.

Henry Ford III

Didn't BMW charge for Apple Car Play/Android Auto at one stage? They then relented iirc.

redcup342

Well if they charged extra for the Indicators at least the BMW Drivers would have an excuse then :pac:

Crazy though, BMW tested the waters with Carplay etc, no way any German would go for it.

Would bring up interesting questions if they start selling things in their own car as Services.

Like what happens if you activate heated seats after the warranty period and they don't work .... is it up to BMW to fix them now because they are a service ?

R.O.R

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Didn't BMW charge for Apple Car Play/Android Auto at one stage? They then relented iirc.

I think they do this at the moment - Apple Car Play is no longer an option to add on a few models. Now built in and activated for a certain time period, but then it's an annual subscription cost.

My current 3 Series was built when Car Play was a cost option, and it was ticked on my car, so I can't see on the Connected Drive store what the length of standard activation is, or how much it is one that expires, but I'm due a new car shortly so can check on that.

Henry Ford III

R.O.R wrote: »

I think they do this at the moment - Apple Car Play is no longer an option to add on a few models. Now built in and activated for a certain time period, but then it's an annual subscription cost.

My current 3 Series was built when Car Play was a cost option, and it was ticked on my car, so I can't see on the Connected Drive store what the length of standard activation is, or how much it is one that expires, but I'm due a new car shortly so can check on that.

That's madness. They are both free apps.

kirving

cruizer101 wrote: »

I understand your point about it being cheaper for manufacturer to have less options to simplify manufacturing but that doesn't necessarily me it is less wasteful

That's certainly true alright. There's generally a strong relationship between the amount of parts you put into a car and the cost, but this breaks down somewhat when you get to complicated bits like wiring looms with a high percentage of customers selecting on option.

Inversely, if only 5% of customers checked the heated seats, they'd cost a fortune per seat.

The overheads, in terms of design, logistics, manufacturing equipment, process control, validation, and even shipping really are unbelievable when it comes to multiple variants, so this has to be accounted for too if we want to calculate resource wastage as opposed to just cost.

Not that I want to be paying a subscription for my own car, but I do understand how they may have arrived at the conclusion of a subscription based service.

As I said about ECU's becoming combined into a single unit, this is more likely to happen, as the amount of hardware between a car with a feature and a car without becomes less and less. It's also why features now tend to come in full packages as opposed to individual selections the advanced features may all share a controller and wiring.

Heated seats for example used to need space on the dashboard, a dedicated physical switch, controller, wiring to the seat, and the heating element which each came with a cost. Nowadays it can be a case of piggybacking off an existing touchscreen, existing comms/power wiring to the seat, an existing seat controller, so all you need is the element itself which is only a few quid.

The inherent problem is that once the manufacturer has concluded that it's cheaper (or even overall less wasteful) to include a component or feature than it is to leave it out, they're in a conundrum of A) Installing and leaving disabled, or Charging to used the feature in future.

Ubbquittious

Jeez I miss the days when cars were just for driving. I'd buy a Dacia with no features before I'd get a car with DRM in it designed to take more money off me every month. But then maybe Dacia will start doing it as well as all things in the car industry trickle down even the bad and then I'll be stuck with building my own cars from bits of box iron

sweet_trip

bazz26 wrote: »

Well if the Greens got their way we would all be travelling in communal cars.

That's called a bus.

AndrewJRenko

bazz26 wrote: »

Well if the Greens got their way we would all be travelling in communal cars.

Can you please point to where any Green politician said that?

AndrewJRenko

sweet_trip wrote: »

That's called a bus.

Go Car would disagree with you, I guess

mickdw

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Can you please point to where any Green politician said that?

Eamon Ryan certsinly suggested that there should be a small number of shared cars in rural villages instead of a car or 2 at each house.

bazz26

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Can you please point to where any Green politician said that?

From the ring master himself:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/green-party-leader-calls-for-car-pooling-scheme-for-rural-ireland-1.4046585

So back in your box Jack!

Sam Russell

Isn't Satnav currently a charge for extra when an upgrade of the maps is called for?

Mazda satnav is only valid for three years I believe and a new map chip is required after that at significant cost (€183.50 for 3 year upgrades). There are ebay offers for very little in comparison though. (Now I think something similar exists for other marques).

I know some cars had options such as fog lights were prewired and all that was needed was to swap the light switch and install the fog light - the wires were already there. Now that ECUs do much of the work, it might be easier to 'upgrade'.

If I recall, in the USA, there was a case that the motor companies lost where the upgrades that were simply enabling the function and no hardware was involved could not be charged for - but I may be misremembering.

Henry Ford III

Sam Russell wrote: »

Isn't Satnav currently a charge for extra when an upgrade of the maps is called for?

Mazda satnav is only valid for three years I believe and a new map chip is required after that at significant cost (€183.50 for 3 year upgrades). There are ebay offers for very little in comparison though. (Now I think something similar exists for other marques)....

Android Auto offers free sat nav using Google Maps and Waze. Both offer live traffic updates and warnings about speed cameras and other hazards.

I don't understand why anyone would need anything beyond that.

Sam Russell

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Android Auto offers free sat nav using Google Maps and Waze. Both offer live traffic updates and warnings about speed cameras and other hazards.

I don't understand why anyone would need anything beyond that.

The built in satnav should function correctly, and using a mobile phone as a satnav could get you into trouble as using a mobile in the car is not allowed unless it is hands free.

AndrewJRenko

bazz26 wrote: »

From the ring master himself:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/green-party-leader-calls-for-car-pooling-scheme-for-rural-ireland-1.4046585

So back in your box Jack!

He doesn't say "we should all be travelling in communal cars" in any of the quotes in that article. He does mention the idea of communal cars, but he's a long way off your claim.

AndrewJRenko

mickdw wrote: »

Eamon Ryan certsinly suggested that there should be a small number of shared cars in rural villages instead of a car or 2 at each house.

Did he actually say "instead of a car or two at each house"?

bazz26

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

He doesn't say "we should all be travelling in communal cars" in any of the quotes in that article. He does mention the idea of communal cars, but he's a long way off your claim.

Your just being anal now with words to save a bit of face.

AndrewJRenko

bazz26 wrote: »

Your just being anal now with words to save a bit of face.

I'm just pointing out that he didn't say what you said he said. He said something different to what you said he said.

So maybe you'd like to attack him for what he actually said, rather than for your exaggerated spin on what he said.

Montage of Feck

Have to look in to getting a motorbike license, the future of motoring looks grim.

zg3409

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Android Auto offers free sat nav using Google Maps and Waze. Both offer live traffic updates and warnings about speed cameras and other hazards.

I don't understand why anyone would need anything beyond that.

As mentioned already BMW wanted a subscription to enable android auto or your phone would not work. BMW need to pay to add android auto to their car but its a once off fee to them

The cost of many OEM sat nav updates is higher than the cost of going out and buying a brand new sat nav with lifetime free updates.

Many companies are now charging for the subscription to the app for the car, there is a cost involved as the car has a sim car with associated monthly data fee from the mobile company, but nothing like what the manufacturer charges to the customer. It also allows things like WiFi in the car for kids to use, and live traffic on sat nav. They then sell any data they can on you such as location, and probably driving style and internet history. One sat nav crowd sold speed data to the police so they could target speed check to known speeding locations.

Psychedelic Hedgehog

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mazda satnav is only valid for three years I believe and a new map chip is required after that at significant cost (€183.50 for 3 year upgrades). There are ebay offers for very little in comparison though. (Now I think something similar exists for other marques).

The updates are free for three years post purchase, but navigation continues to work afterwards if you don't subscribe to updates. You don't need a new SD card if you purchase upgrades, the card is tied to the VIN of the car and the update tool recognises this. I think it actually works out cheaper than yearly updates from other manufacturers, but don't quote me on that

sbmayo

I'd love to see Eamonn Ryan's scheme here - but this is a good sized town that's quite densely populated. I'd like to step outside and choose a 4x4 if I need one or a small sporty car if I fancy it, or just a regular Corolla if am going to the shops or that is all that's there...I'd also like to not have to tax, insure and maintain them and just pay a subscription for someone else to do that. I'd also like all the free space in the streets and particularly around the square in the middle of the town that could be used for other things. I don't need a car, I need access to a car sometimes. Maybe not the ratio of 30 to 300 as he mentions, but the current ratio means the town is getting packed with bigger and bigger cars every year, 95% of which are not moving most of the time, taking up space and because they are getting taller, blocking the view of, well, everything.

Montage of Feck

Weren't electric cars supposed to save the planet? Tesla make shoddy disposable cars with a short lifespan, a tactic sadly being quickly followed by the likes of BMW.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574919#Comment_121574919

Electric cars are supposed to save the car industry, they've little to do with saving the planet.