The real scandal here is that the young and low income earners pay very little in tax

Fred Cryton

Recent Exchequer figures show Income tax revenue actually ROSE in first half of year compared with 2019.



How can this be? - Well because the vast majority of those losing their jobs due to COVID-19 pay little or no income tax.



25% of workers pay around 80% of all income tax. How can we have a proper democracy if really only 25% are paying towards it?



A person earning €20k in Germany pays around €4k in income tax/PRSI. In Ireland that same person pays less than €1k. How do the left try to justify this with a straight face? Are Irish people special that they should pay little or nothing compared with similar earners on the continent? And still demand the same public services?



If the young and low earners who voted for SF in droves at the last election really do want better public services and cheaper/free houses, then they can pay for it through higher taxes on lower incomes.

Irish Praetorian

Fred Cryton wrote: »

25% of workers pay around 80% of all income tax. How can we have a proper democracy if really only 25% are paying towards it?

Could I get a source for that? I don't particularly doubt the claim, I just want to see how other cohorts fare.

phantasmagoria

I have sympathy for younger workers and realistically why would they be paying higher taxes when they earn so little? When it comes to healthcare, the public system is not exactly a stellar service. By the time you are seen in some cases your problem may have worsened to such a degree that you are a dead man walking. I'm of the view that more of the middle income earners should be brought into the lower tax bracket, especially if they are renting and effectively giving back half their rental payments to the government in the form of tax. It has gone on far too long...the rich people pay so little tax as a percentage of their incomes given their ability to generate wealth in jobs that are overpaying in the first place.

James Brown

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Recent Exchequer figures show Income tax revenue actually ROSE in first half of year compared with 2019.



How can this be? - Well because the vast majority of those losing their jobs due to COVID-19 pay little or no income tax.



25% of workers pay around 80% of all income tax. How can we have a proper democracy if really only 25% are paying towards it?



A person earning €20k in Germany pays around €4k in income tax/PRSI. In Ireland that same person pays less than €1k. How do the left try to justify this with a straight face? Are Irish people special that they should pay little or nothing compared with similar earners on the continent? And still demand the same public services?



If the young and low earners who voted for SF in droves at the last election really do want better public services and cheaper/free houses, then they can pay for it through higher taxes on lower incomes.

So raise taxes on lower paid workers? Won't they then need further state aid?
What about these workers, you favour 25 year leases on private builds to state owned social rentals?
Would it not be better to have less workers relying on state aid to get through the week? Building our own for use as social would be more fiscally prudent too.

circadian

Has to be one of the sillier threads I've seen recently.

RandomViewer

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Recent Exchequer figures show Income tax revenue actually ROSE in first half of year compared with 2019.



How can this be? - Well because the vast majority of those losing their jobs due to COVID-19 pay little or no income tax.



25% of workers pay around 80% of all income tax. How can we have a proper democracy if really only 25% are paying towards it?



A person earning €20k in Germany pays around €4k in income tax/PRSI. In Ireland that same person pays less than €1k. How do the left try to justify this with a straight face? Are Irish people special that they should pay little or nothing compared with similar earners on the continent? And still demand the same public services?



If the young and low earners who voted for SF in droves at the last election really do want better public services and cheaper/free houses, then they can pay for it through higher taxes on lower incomes.

Might explain a lot

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/comparison/germany/ireland

But seeing its you Fred it's just another attack on SF and poor people

suicide_circus

So FDI companies pay fook all tax here but they employ around 200,000 people all of whom will be paying income tax and make up some of that 25% who pay 80% of the income tax.

Irish Praetorian

Damn website keeps losing my freaking reply. Here is a chart of 2017 showing the income earned and income tax paid in 2017 as a proportion of the total for the year.



Self explanatory, squeezed middle only group paying in proportion to the amount they earn, I'd elaborate but having typed this out twice already I'm pissed.

EDIT: Ranges of Income and total number of taxable cases are as follows:

Under 10,000 539,452
10,000 to 12,000 80,210
12,000 to 15,000 111,017
15,000 to 17,000 73,615
17,000 to 20,000 125,176
20,000 to 25,000 206,724
25,000 to 27,000 75,514
27,000 to 30,000 107,235
30,000 to 35,000 171,328
35,000 to 40,000 150,792
40,000 to 50,000 227,706
50,000 to 60,000 160,922
60,000 to 70,000 114,849
70,000 to 75,000 44,699
75,000 to 80,000 36,730
80,000 to 90,000 57,276
90,000 to 100,000 40,366
100,000 to 150,000 88,954
150,000 to 200,000 24,066
200,000 to 275,000 12,923
275,000 and over 12,502

SEPT 23 1989

If it wasn't for the sick and the unemployed we would be in the black now kind of thing

But thank christ we live in a civilised society where we who are well and able to work can do the heavy lifting for the rest

dan1895

circadian wrote: »

Has to be one of the sillier threads I've seen recently.

There's a fair bit of competition over the last week or so.

circadian

dan1895 wrote: »

There's a fair bit of competition over the last week or so.

I don't disagree with that, but this is one has some level of effort put in, despite still being completely stupid.

ChelseaRentBoy

Fred doesn't like poor people shocker.

Eric Cartman

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

If it wasn't for the sick and the unemployed we would be in the black now kind of thing

But thank christ we live in a civilised society where we who are well and able to work can do the heavy lifting for the rest

the issue is many of those people don't do any lifting.

Jinglejangle69

900,000 people pay no income tax in Ireland.

Have it to handy with a added benifits been below the threshold.

Subsided houses, medical cards, work 20 hours get the top up to 40, back to school allowance..

I could go on.

Geuze

My parents are a good example, on 50k combined gross approx.

They pay 9% direct income tax.

They get:

two full med cards
two FTP
free TV licence
35 pm off elec bill / 420 pa

We have a very progressive income tax system in Ireland, this is well known.

Many, many earners pay very little.

But the effective tax rates then rise very fast, as the entry point to the top MTR is just 35k approx.

By 80k, effective tax rates here are like Nordic rates.

If any party wants Nordic style public services, fair enough, but you must be honest about it, that requires much higher taxes on many lower earners.

In my opinion, SF do not face this reality.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Wouldn’t raising tax for low earners mean that they have much less to spend on consumer items and discretionary spending, lowering the VAT take?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the issue is many of those people don't do any lifting.

Many low paid jobs are very physically taxing. Low paid workers work bloody hard too. There’s seems to be this idea that the higher you are paid, the harder you work.

James Brown

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Wouldn’t raising tax for low earners mean that they have much less to spend on consumer items and discretionary spending, lowering the VAT take?



Many low paid jobs are very physically taxing. Low paid workers work bloody hard too. There’s seems to be this idea that the higher you are paid, the harder you work.

Hardest job I ever hard was also the lowest wage. That's common.

Geuze

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Wouldn’t raising tax for low earners mean that they have much less to spend on consumer items and discretionary spending, lowering the VAT take?



Many low paid jobs are very physically taxing. Low paid workers work bloody hard too. There’s seems to be this idea that the higher you are paid, the harder you work.

Eric Cartman was, I believe, referring to the high rate of economic inactivity in Ireland, i.e. the high rate of joblessness.

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

Eric Cartman was, I believe, referring to the high rate of economic inactivity in Ireland, i.e. the high rate of joblessness.

The old and sick with the undefined number of 'dem that don't want to work'?
Until recently I was led to believe employment was high. Couldn't be the system thats arseways? No must be the spongers...

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

The old and sick with the undefined number of 'dem that don't want to work'?
Until recently I was led to believe employment was high. Couldn't be the system thats arseways? No must be the spongers...

Note that joblessness is far wider than unemployment.

Joblessness refers to people typically aged 24-65.

We lead Europe in joblessness.


The employment rate in Ireland is average, maybe a bit above average, but not very high.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

The old and sick with the undefined number of 'dem that don't want to work'?
Until recently I was led to believe employment was high. Couldn't be the system thats arseways? No must be the spongers...

Why joblessness is so high here is hard to say:

the design of our welfare state is one answer
another is how caring happens - we have more informal caring

joeguevara

Geuze wrote: »

Why joblessness is so high here is hard to say:

the design of our welfare state is one answer
another is how caring happens - we have more informal caring

Pre Covid our unemployment rate was 4.8% a 13 year low. When you say high joblessness what did you mean. Growing up in the 80s it was 10% or above. In January 2020 it was considered to be full job capacity.

simongurnick

Geuze wrote: »

Why joblessness is so high here is hard to say:

the design of our welfare state is one answer
another is how caring happens - we have more informal caring

What is "informal caring?"

Geuze

joeguevara wrote: »

Pre Covid our unemployment rate was 4.8% a 13 year low. When you say high joblessness what did you mean. Growing up in the 80s it was 10% or above. In January 2020 it was considered to be full job capacity.

https://www.nesc.ie/publications/jobless-households-an-exploration-of-the-issues/

http://files.nesc.ie/nesc_reports/en/137_Jobless_Households_Infographic.pdf

Geuze

joeguevara wrote: »

Pre Covid our unemployment rate was 4.8% a 13 year low. When you say high joblessness what did you mean. Growing up in the 80s it was 10% or above. In January 2020 it was considered to be full job capacity.

I mean that Ireland leads Europe in the number of VLWI households.

We have very high numbers of households with no market incomes.

NESC, IGEES and Barra Roantree have written about this, among others.


https://www.esri.ie/sites/default/files/media/file-uploads/2020-01/Slides_1.pdf

Mongfinder General

Tax the rich, you say.
Everybody should pay "their share" of taxes.
Income tax is one of the main streams of taxation although receipts from corporation tax is rising steadily. However, a back of the envelope calculation tells me that the first 18 or 19k earned is effectively tax free. The next 17k earned is hit at 20% and then anything above that at 40% plus usc, prsi, pension levy etc of a public servant. There is little financial incentive to better one's self as we progress in the work place.
So back to taxing the rich. Why don't we all pay at the same rate then? Instead of having 2 main rates of income tax, we could all pay at the same rate? For example we all pay 30% at anything above €15k. Fair? And why not throw in unearned income too? As in those collecting social welfare payments.
Will this happen? Will it ****. Because most of us are happy with those on more than €50k a year paying far more than they should.

Eric Cartman

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Wouldn’t raising tax for low earners mean that they have much less to spend on consumer items and discretionary spending, lowering the VAT take?



Many low paid jobs are very physically taxing. Low paid workers work bloody hard too. There’s seems to be this idea that the higher you are paid, the harder you work.

what I meant was that we have plenty of people here who are perfectly capable of working who don't work at all.

Eric Cartman

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Tax the rich, you say.
Everybody should pay "their share" of taxes.
Income tax is one of the main streams of taxation although receipts from corporation tax is rising steadily. However, a back of the envelope calculation tells me that the first 18 or 19k earned is effectively tax free. The next 17k earned is hit at 20% and then anything above that at 40% plus usc, prsi, pension levy etc of a public servant. There is little financial incentive to better one's self as we progress in the work place.
So back to taxing the rich. Why don't we all pay at the same rate then? Instead of having 2 main rates of income tax, we could all pay at the same rate? For example we all pay 30% at anything above €15k. Fair? And why not throw in unearned income too? As in those collecting social welfare payments.
Will this happen? Will it ****. Because most of us are happy with those on more than €50k a year paying far more than they should.

thats it, the flat tax model works wonderfully, 22% on everything from 1 euro to 1 billion euro , would be a far fairer system.

KiKi III

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thats it, the flat tax model works wonderfully, 22% on everything from 1 euro to 1 billion euro , would be a far fairer system.

We were at close to full employment before Covid?

ZeroThreat

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thats it, the flat tax model works wonderfully, 22% on everything from 1 euro to 1 billion euro , would be a far fairer system.

I'd be all for a flat rate of tax. Unfortunately, there's no hope in hell you'd ever manage to make someone earning 1 billion euro pay 20 or 25% tax.

It's difficult to make the rich (I mean ultra-rich bezos/Warren Buffet types) pay even 1% effective.

Technocentral

circadian wrote: »

Has to be one of the sillier threads I've seen recently.

It's not about income tax though, it's an opportunity to complain about "the left" ie presumably the people in FF and FG who have set the tax rates in Ireland.

suicide_circus

Removing that many people from the tax net is a fundamentally unsound practice. Everyone should pay something.

ZeroThreat

Technocentral wrote: »

It's not about income tax though, it's an opportunity to complain about "the left" ie presumably the people in FF and FG who have set the tax rates in Ireland.

Would I be going out on a limb here to guess that Fred is a Brexit and Trump supporter??

Idbatterim

This has been written about often . Its idiocy to have such a huge number contributing virtually nothing in income related taxes. As a consequence then of having as good as no lpt, no water charges , as good as free motor tax. Someone has to pick up the pieces.

Haning a marginal tax rate of fifty percent over the pittance of a threshold, is absolutel idiocy. Many people will not work extra hours etc if losing half the pay... they have themselves in a right pickle here... a total idiotic taxation system, which is problematic, but not one party being even close to doing something about it out of cowardice...

Of course the rip off housing situation needs addressing too for all workers... but I'd say we must be unique on earth for the idiocy of having huge amounts pay in nothing in employment taxes and endless supports for some , pretty much all of which came about because of a spectacular boom and reckless short term decision, idiot politicians....

Morrisp

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Recent Exchequer figures show Income tax revenue actually ROSE in first half of year compared with 2019.



How can this be? - Well because the vast majority of those losing their jobs due to COVID-19 pay little or no income tax.



25% of workers pay around 80% of all income tax. How can we have a proper democracy if really only 25% are paying towards it?



A person earning €20k in Germany pays around €4k in income tax/PRSI. In Ireland that same person pays less than €1k. How do the left try to justify this with a straight face? Are Irish people special that they should pay little or nothing compared with similar earners on the continent? And still demand the same public services?



If the young and low earners who voted for SF in droves at the last election really do want better public services and cheaper/free houses, then they can pay for it through higher taxes on lower incomes.

You seem rather out touch fred in how things work . I think you need to educate yourself a lot more before post utter silly posts like this , makes yourself looking out of touch and rather silly

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thats it, the flat tax model works wonderfully, 22% on everything from 1 euro to 1 billion euro , would be a far fairer system.

Renua suggested this , git backlash from many of the public... watched a video of theirs after they changed this policy and they said in a polite way, the public at large are too stupid to understand it.

" why should someone better off than me pay the same rate if tax " it's a flat rate you idiots! Bit that's what you are up against...

Eric Cartman

Idbatterim wrote: »

Renua suggested this , git backlash from many of the public... watched a video of theirs after they changed this policy and they said in a polite way, the public at large are too stupid to understand it.

" why should someone better off than me pay the same rate if tax " it's a flat rate you idiots! Bit that's what you are up against...

to be fair, renuas downfall was the abortion debate. There is ample space in Irish politics for a fiscally Conservative party that cuts taxes / levels off taxes in a fairer way, they just have to avoid the big ol catholic sand-trap..... one which none of them seem to have done to date.

Akesh

No, the real scandal is corporation tax @ 12.5% and anyone non-resident in Ireland being able to remove wealth from an Irish entity without paying a red cent in tax.

Income tax in Ireland is far too high for the level of services we receive.

Multinational corporations provide a lot of jobs but pay very little effective tax when all the profits are washed away with phony administration and management charges. While it is good for the people employed and the income tax paid on behalf of these employees is good, the overall impact is far more negative to the economy when you factor in other issues such as the level of importation of foreign workers in multinationals and the fact that multinationals only want to be based in already high density environments, which creates additional pressure in Irish cities and the lack of tax being paid by the company.

The current economy works for nobody except the rich and those who contribute absolutely nothing to the exchequer.

Diverboy

suicide_circus wrote: »

Removing that many people from the tax net is a fundamentally unsound practice. Everyone should pay something.

Earlier in my career I lived in continental Europe for a number of years earning a relatively modest income (~21k pa). I paid an effective tax rate of about 9% on my income, as did many of my friends.

We received a tax bill at the end of the year for which we would be required to set aside income during the year. The concept that everyone was part of society and everyone contributed something worked well. It made each of us value the public services we received/were entitled to more so than if we paid nothing.

While taxing someone on a 21k pa income at 20% is excessive in my opinion there are many numbers between 0 and 20 that would work. Unfortunately it's unlikely to be implemented by any political party in this country.

suicide_circus

Yep totally agree.

Complaining about the quality of services while simultaneously removing large swathes of the workforce from the tax base is pure stupidity.

antimatterx

suicide_circus wrote: »

Removing that many people from the tax net is a fundamentally unsound practice. Everyone should pay something.

More important, everyone should pay something from their wages. I hate the counter argument of "but they pay VAT when they spend their money". So does everyone else.

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

to be fair, renuas downfall was the abortion debate. There is ample space in Irish politics for a fiscally Conservative party that cuts taxes / levels off taxes in a fairer way, they just have to avoid the big ol catholic sand-trap..... one which none of them seem to have done to date.

I agree. The abortion grey area and a single issue robbing of us of a voice many of us want, on far clearer cut issues is a tragedy !

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

antimatterx wrote: »

More important, everyone should pay something from their wages. I hate the counter argument of "but they pay VAT when they spend their money". So does everyone else.

It’s not stupid. More employment tax paid means less consumer spending so the VAT take will go down. If the VAT take reduces by the amount the employment tax take rises by (that would be a bit of guesswork but I’m sure somebody has analysed it) it’s a pointless move, if the goal is bring in more tax revenue.

If the goal is based on more nebulous notions of fairness, then maybe you might consider it worth it. I don’t know.

Eric Cartman

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It’s not stupid. More employment tax paid means less consumer spending so the VAT take will go down. If the VAT take reduces by the amount the employment tax take rises by (that would be a bit of guesswork but I’m sure somebody has analysed it) it’s a pointless move, if the goal is bring in more tax revenue.

If the goal is based on more nebulous notions of fairness, then maybe you might consider it worth it. I don’t know.

Relying on VAT over income tax just leaves those remunerating money to foreign countries and discourages people from buying from local business.

If you have say a polish couple, Builder and a cleaner , household income total say 38k , under the current model they order a lot of things from Poland because its cheaper and they're sending back half their take-home to build a nice house back there. They are contributing almost nothing to the Irish economy, they're not taking from it but not contributing much either.

If they had to pay 20% income tax across the lot and vat was 10% they'd be more likely to spend here (as polish vat is 23% too) and no matter what they sent home, the Irish state got a 20% cut.

its a smarter solution to even out the tax base so half the workforce actually start paying , and gets some money from those sending money abroad.

James Brown

Looking to the sick, old and mystery undefined group of welfare Ninjas who don't want to work is never going to change anything.
There is a reason FF/FG have us in the system we have. They are not bullied by 'the left' on anything. If they bow to ideas based on trying to cadge votes, that's still on them. However doesn't seem to effect their policies elsewhere.
Therefore what we have is what FF/FG designed and think we should have. The question is why? It must be handy for FF/FG to create and maintain these things and have people blame 'the left' and scanger of the week as featured in the Indo.

The majority are working tax payers. The numbers of these people requiring tax funded state aid to function is growing. This is the problem.

Mongfinder General

Bowie wrote: »

Looking to the sick, old and mystery undefined group of welfare Ninjas who don't want to work is never going to change anything.
There is a reason FF/FG have us in the system we have. They are not bullied by 'the left' on anything. If they bow to ideas based on trying to cadge votes, that's still on them. However doesn't seem to effect their policies elsewhere.
Therefore what we have is what FF/FG designed and think we should have. The question is why? It must be handy for FF/FG to create and maintain these things and have people blame 'the left' and scanger of the week as featured in the Indo.

The majority are working tax payers. The numbers of these people requiring tax funded state aid to function is growing. This is the problem.

Hence the term - ineptocracy.

RandomViewer

suicide_circus wrote: »

Removing that many people from the tax net is a fundamentally unsound practice. Everyone should pay something.

Everyone does,

RandomViewer

Geuze wrote: »

Eric Cartman was, I believe, referring to the high rate of economic inactivity in Ireland, i.e. the high rate of joblessness.

5 % close to full employment, and when you break that down and remove certain groups it's even lower

RandomViewer

Geuze wrote: »

Note that joblessness is far wider than unemployment.

Joblessness refers to people typically aged 24-65.

We lead Europe in joblessness.


The employment rate in Ireland is average, maybe a bit above average, but not very high.

Some people earn enough so their spouse doesn't have to work, why so sore?

RandomViewer

Eric Cartman wrote: »

what I meant was that we have plenty of people here who are perfectly capable of working who don't work at all.

Half of actual jobs aren't real jobs, lots of grants to employ more people than you need. Also there is huge dead wood in many companies and public services, reality is if we went mad on for efficiency in every area we would lower the workforce down to less than a million,

RandomViewer

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Relying on VAT over income tax just leaves those remunerating money to foreign countries and discourages people from buying from local business.

If you have say a polish couple, Builder and a cleaner , household income total say 38k , under the current model they order a lot of things from Poland because its cheaper and they're sending back half their take-home to build a nice house back there. They are contributing almost nothing to the Irish economy, they're not taking from it but not contributing much either.

If they had to pay 20% income tax across the lot and vat was 10% they'd be more likely to spend here (as polish vat is 23% too) and no matter what they sent home, the Irish state got a 20% cut.

its a smarter solution to even out the tax base so half the workforce actually start paying , and gets some money from those sending money abroad.

xenophobic rubbish, Polish people all have cars, rent or own houses here and are as fond of gadgets and white goods as anyone else, do you actually know any Poles or are you just running on stereotype dung from the likes of Gemma