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Renault Zoe; battery owned vs battery leased

  • 03-07-2020 9:36pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 10,858 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    If I were to go for a used Renault Zoe one day I would be too'ing and fro'ing about the battery Lease.
    I mean yes a battery owned one seems attractive because no monthly rental .... but a battery rental of €80 a month will get you:

    Free recovery / breakdown service included (maybe someone from a breakdown recovery place would come out and put a bit of charge into your car to get you to the next charging station, is that how it works?)
    Guarantee that if the traction battery goes under 80% of efficiency they will change the defective cells. and there was one other plus that I thought about with renting the batteries rather but i cannot think what it was now

    if you bought the battery outright you woudnt be able to avail of any of that.

    Mod Note: Moving to own thread on request of OP, and often comes up for discussion


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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    My original intention when I bought the e-Up was to get a Zoe. It probably depends on how long you intend to keep the car.

    The recovery benefit is often included in fully comp insurance, so the main question is if the extended battery warranty and reduced purchase price is worth €80 a month.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,874 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    liamog wrote: »
    the main question is if the extended battery warranty and reduced purchase price is worth €80 a month.

    Not that simple. As the car ages and depreciates, the monthly lease will become more and more exorbitant (compared to the value of the car). Which will make it nigh on impossible to sell the car on. So the second hand value of Zoes is near zero. The only other way (apart from selling the car and getting another fool to sign up for the lease) to legally stop the lease payment is to scrap the car. In which case you will have to pay Renault for scrapping it for you

    There's a 2015 Zoe with an owned battery up for sale for €8k or something like that. That's good value. If you want a Zoe, get that one. Don't be an idiot falling for the "benefits" of the leased battery

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,858 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    unkel wrote: »
    Not that simple. As the car ages and depreciates, the monthly lease will become more and more exorbitant (compared to the value of the car). Which will make it nigh on impossible to sell the car on. So the second hand value of Zoes is near zero. The only other way (apart from selling the car and getting another fool to sign up for the lease) to legally stop the lease payment is to scrap the car. In which case you will have to pay Renault for scrapping it for you

    There's a 2015 Zoe with an owned battery up for sale for €8k or something like that. That's good value. If you want a Zoe, get that one. Don't be an idiot falling for the "benefits" of the leased battery

    yeah thats the one I see on DD - very tempting.. never thought I would ever see a battery owned one for that price ever - but then the ol' nerves kicked in and got me thinking to what if you got a battery owned zoe and the battery went under 80% or packed up altogether and got me sweating! - i mean like what happens then if its battery owned on, your on your own!


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭ JPA


    If the battery goes under 80% the car isn't going to stop working! Maybe just don't go on that Mizen Head trip.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,858 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    liamog wrote: »
    My original intention when I bought the e-Up was to get a Zoe. It probably depends on how long you intend to keep the car.

    the VW e-Up is a nice looking BEV ... looks like a 'normal' compact car, could be mistaken for looking like a ICE car any quick glance , and I think thats good.
    also good, we I like the look of, is that you can charge it through the 'fuel flap' position of the car rather than a flap at the front of the car.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭ Joseph SEE


    also good, we I like the look of, is that you can charge it through the 'fuel flap' position of the car rather than a flap at the front of the car.

    That's not really that advantageous as a lot of chargers/charge points are better positioned for a front or rear (if you reverse) charge port. To my mind, a charge port located under the C pillar is a slight con rather than a pro.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭ beauf


    Putting it through the petrol flap is a cost saving measure for the manufacturer. In hindsight not the ideal position as you say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭ beauf


    liamog wrote: »
    My original intention when I bought the e-Up was to get a Zoe.....

    Why didn't you?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    beauf wrote: »
    Putting it through the petrol flap is a cost saving measure for the manufacturer. In hindsight not the ideal position as you say.

    It's an ideal position for properly placed chargers, it's just a pity that Nissan chose to put it one of the most easily damaged areas of a car and that infrastructure providers haven't updated their layouts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,858 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    liamog wrote: »
    It's an ideal position for properly placed chargers, it's just a pity that Nissan chose to put it one of the most easily damaged areas of a car and that infrastructure providers haven't updated their layouts.

    yep - thats got me thinking . placing it on the front and if you have a tip with a car in front and its broke the flap thats no good and all that air and driving rain and everything facing towards the front of the car as your driving it cant be good either, in those kind of circumstances I can see why it is a better design to put it in the conventional area where fuel would normally go into a car.

    on another note , these charging stations how does the cable come out of the station ? - do you just pull it and when you let go it recoils back like a hoover cable does with auto cord rewind and like the petrol hose does in a petrol station pump?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭ beauf


    beauf wrote: »
    Why didn't you?

    Still curious about this...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭ beauf


    yep - thats got me thinking . placing it on the front and if you have a tip with a car in front and its broke the flap thats no good and all that air and driving rain and everything facing towards the front of the car as your driving it cant be good either, in those kind of circumstances I can see why it is a better design to put it in the conventional area where fuel would normally go into a car.

    on another note , these charging stations how does the cable come out of the station ? - do you just pull it and when you let go it recoils back like a hoover cable does with auto cord rewind and like the petrol hose does in a petrol station pump?

    You have all sorts of electrical stuff at the front of a normal car not least the lights wipers battery alternator etc. Hasn't been a problem so far has it?

    When you fill a petrol car you are there for very briefly. Stop and go. Not so with an EV you park for a lot longer. So it's more a regular parking space. So it's more efficient to have the cars park line nose or tail in. As in normal car parks. Rather than say street parking where you parallel n park.

    It's a very minor thing. Not a big deal. Since you probably aren't doing it that often.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,874 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    beauf wrote: »
    Still curious about this...

    I presume because he reckoned a VW e-Up! was a better proposition :p

    No battery lease, fast DC charging and likely less electrical / charging issues and likely less depreciation. And having a unique car (the only one in the country at the time he bought iirc). Those are the reasons I could think of, but I'm sure liamog will come back himself on this thread to correct / confirm this :)

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    beauf wrote: »
    You have all sorts of electrical stuff at the front of a normal car not least the lights wipers battery alternator etc. Hasn't been a problem so far has it?

    It's the minor bumps that are likely to cause the biggest issue, the 12V battery and alternator are not placed on the very front of the car and are unlikely to be damaged in a minor fender bender. Nose in parking has proven to cause more accidents than reverse parking. Basically the front nose is the absolute worse place to put the charging port.

    Rapid chargers in busier markets have started switching to the much more logical layout of four spaces with the chargers in a line down the middle. It's gives the maximum utility for people, whilst also making it obvious that it's not a parking space.

    SPACE | SPACE
    --CHARGERS--
    SPACE | SPACE


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    beauf wrote: »
    Why didn't you?

    I didn't like the driving feel of the Zoe, it was slightly too high up, and too soft on the road. The fact the e-Up! has the uniqueness factor was just icing on the cake. Now that I think about, it's a similar reason why I'm buying the Mini over other options. I care more about how a car feels on the road than an extra 25% range which will very rarely be used.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭ beauf


    liamog wrote: »
    It's the minor bumps that are likely to cause the biggest issue, the 12V battery and alternator are not placed on the very front of the car and are unlikely to be damaged in a minor fender bender. Nose in parking has proven to cause more accidents than reverse parking. Basically the front nose is the absolute worse place to put the charging port.

    Rapid chargers in busier markets have started switching to the much more logical layout of four spaces with the chargers in a line down the middle. It's gives the maximum utility for people, whilst also making it obvious that it's not a parking space.

    SPACE | SPACE
    --CHARGERS--
    SPACE | SPACE

    There's a sense to that. But it's less efficient use of space. Someone on line suggested why not move than one charging port to give better flexibility. But I guess you can just have a longer cable.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    beauf wrote: »
    There's a sense to that. But it's less efficient use of space. Someone on line suggested why not move than one charging port to give better flexibility. But I guess you can just have a longer cable.

    Seems more efficient than the current approach of

    S|S
    P|P
    A|A
    C|C
    E|E
    ==
    X

    Here's a video of a new Circle K garage in Norway.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭ beauf


    liamog wrote: »
    I didn't like the driving feel of the Zoe, it was slightly too high up, and too soft on the road. The fact the e-Up! has the uniqueness factor was just icing on the cake. Now that I think about, it's a similar reason why I'm buying the Mini over other options. I care more about how a car feels on the road than an extra 25% range which will very rarely be used.

    I can see that. When I drove the Zoe I thought the same of the seating but I didn't get to do any spirited driving. I prefer the up for the driving but even as second car I thought it was noticeably smaller.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    Back to OPs question, how long do you intend to keep the Zoe for? The points about the cost being worth it, and the potentially problematic depreciation are quite valid. For me, if I was keeping the Zoe for less than 2 years, I'd probably gamble on a battery lease. Yes it will be worth less than a battery owned one, but I'd have to look at is the €1,920 of battery lease, more or less than what I'd expect to lose on the value of the car compared to a battery owned version. Based entirely on gut feelings ;) I think the changeover is around that 24 month mark.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,858 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    liamog wrote: »
    Back to OPs question, how long do you intend to keep the Zoe for? The points about the cost being worth it, and the potentially problematic depreciation are quite valid. For me, if I was keeping the Zoe for less than 2 years, I'd probably gamble on a battery lease. Yes it will be worth less than a battery owned one, but I'd have to look at is the €1,920 of battery lease, more or less than what I'd expect to lose on the value of the car compared to a battery owned version. Based entirely on gut feelings ;) I think the changeover is around that 24 month mark.

    difficult for some people when they first buy their car how long they plan to keep it for . I suppose maybe one should know and plan ahead how long they intend to keep the car .
    The battery owned Zoe i was looking at on DD seems so much good value for the money , as I think the only cheapest BO zoe i have seen near to that before was around 13grand mark - the mrs is like "why are they selling it cheap? - whats wrong with it?" .. I am thinking maybe the seller is thats what they want for it ... and it is a private sale as well.
    i dont get this BMS update thing (is thats what its called) I think it were an update to be done on the older Zoes around that vintage of around 2015 wasnt it, something to address the issue of it not charging fully or not charging at all or something like that I think i read - how, if you were going to see a used Zoe, would one know if that was ever done? how could they find out and if it wasnt done and you bought the car can you as the new owner still get that carried out FOC by renault after you bought it?

    regards sitting too high up - the drivers seat on the wifes 2016 Clio 4 has a lever on the drivers seat (dont think theres one on the passenger seat ) but basically the one in her clio you can pump it up or down with this lever ... nearly all the way down to the floor , but i personally like sitting up high in the drivers seat myself - the Zoe would have the same lever on the drivers seat as well wouldnt it ? ... or are you talking about how the actual car itself sits up high on the road?


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    regards sitting too high up - the drivers seat on the wifes 2016 Clio 4 has a lever on the drivers seat (dont think theres one on the passenger seat ) but basically the one in her clio you can pump it up or down with this lever ... nearly all the way down to the floor , but i personally like sitting up high in the drivers seat myself - the Zoe would have the same lever on the drivers seat as well wouldnt it ? ... or are you talking about how the actual car itself sits up high on the road?

    Its hard to describe, it's not so much the position of the seat in the cabin as it is the overall tallness of the car relative to it's width. The car just didn't feel as well grounded as the e-Up! it's been about two and a half years since I decided so sorry if I can't be a little clearer :D. The other thing is the e-Up! feels quicker than the Zoe I was comparing it too. The motor's were near enough the same, but the Zoe is about 275kg heavier. The e-Up! has a certain go-cart feel about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,858 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    liamog wrote: »
    Its hard to describe, it's not so much the position of the seat in the cabin as it is the overall tallness of the car relative to it's width. The car just didn't feel as well grounded as the e-Up! it's been about two and a half years since I decided so sorry if I can't be a little clearer :D. The other thing is the e-Up! feels quicker than the Zoe I was comparing it too. The motor's were near enough the same, but the Zoe is about 275kg heavier. The e-Up! has a certain go-cart feel about it.

    thats alright - yes it most probably to do with suspension as well , the VW more than likely has better suspension than the Zoe and sits better - I am on a clio group and some have lowered their clios to make it sit lower , I dont think the suspension has never been the strongest plus on renault cars .

    The e-up more than likely feels nippier as well because on looks it looks more compact on the outside than the zoe . - my daughters partner has a Corsa 2011 and same engine size as the wife's 2016 clio and both non-turbo and i think same bhp (75bhp I think it is) but his Corsa feels quicker than the Clio


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,858 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    Finding it so hard to get hold of trying out a Renault Zoe for myself without having to travel far to try one out or take one for a test drive. I havent driven an automatic car for over 30 years , let alone ever tried to drive an electric car .
    I might not even be able to get on ok with it being used to driving manual transmission cars for years, also i might find I have a go of a Zoe and hate it but I just cannot seem to get that chance unless I travel right out of my area for a test drive.

    I even had an idea of hiring a Zoe , that I would even be prepared to pay 60/70eur to try one out on a days rental/hire charge. still no good.

    Tried Hertz and they dont have any ev's in their range. Tried europcar and they only do fleet hire - then they put me in touch with Gocar.ie - not too up on how that works but they do have zoe to hire at around €60 for 24 hours but I dont think go hire base anywhere near me where i live in Sligo.

    it would have to be old 22kw zoe 2014/2015 vintage because thats the only age one i would be able to afford if I were getting one around the €8,000 eur mark - so there lies another problem , I suppose showrooms would let me take out the new shape Zoe at €25,000 and upwards price range.

    Have i any more options would anyone have any other ideas of how I could get to have a go/test drive of a renault zoe without having to travel miles out of the area where I am to do so?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,686 ✭✭✭✭ punisher5112


    Go car have some electric cars.... Now to think of it not 100% sure if there is a Zoe though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,858 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    Go car have some electric cars.... Now to think of it not 100% sure if there is a Zoe though.

    already tried went on their page and zoe was listed alright - but no bases anywhere near sligo. thanks anyway


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,874 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Is there no Renault dealer in the Sligo/Mayo/Donegal area?

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,686 ✭✭✭✭ punisher5112


    already tried went on their page and zoe was listed alright - but no bases anywhere near sligo. thanks anyway

    Train it to Dublin or elsewhere where there is and try it out could be an option


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭ RandomViewer


    unkel wrote: »
    Is there no Renault dealer in the Sligo/Mayo/Donegal area?

    Highland motors Letterkenny anyway,


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,858 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    unkel wrote: »
    Is there no Renault dealer in the Sligo/Mayo/Donegal area?

    nothing in Sligo or anywhere near it which is a shame , letterkenny got one but it 130kms from me - jj burke ballinrobe mayo havent any and 87kms away - the joys of living rural i suppose ... loads for sale in cork dublin and meath!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,082 ✭✭✭✭ ED E


    already tried went on their page and zoe was listed alright - but no bases anywhere near sligo. thanks anyway

    Are you serious or is this another one of Andys daydreaming threads?


    TBH if you were serious a spin to Dublin to test one or the position of the charge port wouldn't be your sticking point.


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