Renault Zoe; battery owned vs battery leased

Andy From Sligo

If I were to go for a used Renault Zoe one day I would be too'ing and fro'ing about the battery Lease.
I mean yes a battery owned one seems attractive because no monthly rental .... but a battery rental of €80 a month will get you:

Free recovery / breakdown service included (maybe someone from a breakdown recovery place would come out and put a bit of charge into your car to get you to the next charging station, is that how it works?)
Guarantee that if the traction battery goes under 80% of efficiency they will change the defective cells. and there was one other plus that I thought about with renting the batteries rather but i cannot think what it was now

if you bought the battery outright you woudnt be able to avail of any of that.

Mod Note: Moving to own thread on request of OP, and often comes up for discussion

liamog

My original intention when I bought the e-Up was to get a Zoe. It probably depends on how long you intend to keep the car.

The recovery benefit is often included in fully comp insurance, so the main question is if the extended battery warranty and reduced purchase price is worth €80 a month.

unkel

liamog wrote: »

the main question is if the extended battery warranty and reduced purchase price is worth €80 a month.

Not that simple. As the car ages and depreciates, the monthly lease will become more and more exorbitant (compared to the value of the car). Which will make it nigh on impossible to sell the car on. So the second hand value of Zoes is near zero. The only other way (apart from selling the car and getting another fool to sign up for the lease) to legally stop the lease payment is to scrap the car. In which case you will have to pay Renault for scrapping it for you

There's a 2015 Zoe with an owned battery up for sale for €8k or something like that. That's good value. If you want a Zoe, get that one. Don't be an idiot falling for the "benefits" of the leased battery

Andy From Sligo

unkel wrote: »

Not that simple. As the car ages and depreciates, the monthly lease will become more and more exorbitant (compared to the value of the car). Which will make it nigh on impossible to sell the car on. So the second hand value of Zoes is near zero. The only other way (apart from selling the car and getting another fool to sign up for the lease) to legally stop the lease payment is to scrap the car. In which case you will have to pay Renault for scrapping it for you

There's a 2015 Zoe with an owned battery up for sale for €8k or something like that. That's good value. If you want a Zoe, get that one. Don't be an idiot falling for the "benefits" of the leased battery

yeah thats the one I see on DD - very tempting.. never thought I would ever see a battery owned one for that price ever - but then the ol' nerves kicked in and got me thinking to what if you got a battery owned zoe and the battery went under 80% or packed up altogether and got me sweating! - i mean like what happens then if its battery owned on, your on your own!

JPA

If the battery goes under 80% the car isn't going to stop working! Maybe just don't go on that Mizen Head trip.

Andy From Sligo

liamog wrote: »

My original intention when I bought the e-Up was to get a Zoe. It probably depends on how long you intend to keep the car.

the VW e-Up is a nice looking BEV ... looks like a 'normal' compact car, could be mistaken for looking like a ICE car any quick glance , and I think thats good.
also good, we I like the look of, is that you can charge it through the 'fuel flap' position of the car rather than a flap at the front of the car.

Joseph SEE

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

also good, we I like the look of, is that you can charge it through the 'fuel flap' position of the car rather than a flap at the front of the car.

That's not really that advantageous as a lot of chargers/charge points are better positioned for a front or rear (if you reverse) charge port. To my mind, a charge port located under the C pillar is a slight con rather than a pro.

beauf

Putting it through the petrol flap is a cost saving measure for the manufacturer. In hindsight not the ideal position as you say.

beauf

liamog wrote: »

My original intention when I bought the e-Up was to get a Zoe.....

Why didn't you?

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Putting it through the petrol flap is a cost saving measure for the manufacturer. In hindsight not the ideal position as you say.

It's an ideal position for properly placed chargers, it's just a pity that Nissan chose to put it one of the most easily damaged areas of a car and that infrastructure providers haven't updated their layouts.

Andy From Sligo

liamog wrote: »

It's an ideal position for properly placed chargers, it's just a pity that Nissan chose to put it one of the most easily damaged areas of a car and that infrastructure providers haven't updated their layouts.

yep - thats got me thinking . placing it on the front and if you have a tip with a car in front and its broke the flap thats no good and all that air and driving rain and everything facing towards the front of the car as your driving it cant be good either, in those kind of circumstances I can see why it is a better design to put it in the conventional area where fuel would normally go into a car.

on another note , these charging stations how does the cable come out of the station ? - do you just pull it and when you let go it recoils back like a hoover cable does with auto cord rewind and like the petrol hose does in a petrol station pump?

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Why didn't you?

Still curious about this...

beauf

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

yep - thats got me thinking . placing it on the front and if you have a tip with a car in front and its broke the flap thats no good and all that air and driving rain and everything facing towards the front of the car as your driving it cant be good either, in those kind of circumstances I can see why it is a better design to put it in the conventional area where fuel would normally go into a car.

on another note , these charging stations how does the cable come out of the station ? - do you just pull it and when you let go it recoils back like a hoover cable does with auto cord rewind and like the petrol hose does in a petrol station pump?

You have all sorts of electrical stuff at the front of a normal car not least the lights wipers battery alternator etc. Hasn't been a problem so far has it?

When you fill a petrol car you are there for very briefly. Stop and go. Not so with an EV you park for a lot longer. So it's more a regular parking space. So it's more efficient to have the cars park line nose or tail in. As in normal car parks. Rather than say street parking where you parallel n park.

It's a very minor thing. Not a big deal. Since you probably aren't doing it that often.

unkel

beauf wrote: »

Still curious about this...

I presume because he reckoned a VW e-Up! was a better proposition

No battery lease, fast DC charging and likely less electrical / charging issues and likely less depreciation. And having a unique car (the only one in the country at the time he bought iirc). Those are the reasons I could think of, but I'm sure liamog will come back himself on this thread to correct / confirm this

liamog

beauf wrote: »

You have all sorts of electrical stuff at the front of a normal car not least the lights wipers battery alternator etc. Hasn't been a problem so far has it?

It's the minor bumps that are likely to cause the biggest issue, the 12V battery and alternator are not placed on the very front of the car and are unlikely to be damaged in a minor fender bender. Nose in parking has proven to cause more accidents than reverse parking. Basically the front nose is the absolute worse place to put the charging port.

Rapid chargers in busier markets have started switching to the much more logical layout of four spaces with the chargers in a line down the middle. It's gives the maximum utility for people, whilst also making it obvious that it's not a parking space.

SPACE | SPACE
--CHARGERS--
SPACE | SPACE

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Why didn't you?

I didn't like the driving feel of the Zoe, it was slightly too high up, and too soft on the road. The fact the e-Up! has the uniqueness factor was just icing on the cake. Now that I think about, it's a similar reason why I'm buying the Mini over other options. I care more about how a car feels on the road than an extra 25% range which will very rarely be used.

beauf

liamog wrote: »

It's the minor bumps that are likely to cause the biggest issue, the 12V battery and alternator are not placed on the very front of the car and are unlikely to be damaged in a minor fender bender. Nose in parking has proven to cause more accidents than reverse parking. Basically the front nose is the absolute worse place to put the charging port.

Rapid chargers in busier markets have started switching to the much more logical layout of four spaces with the chargers in a line down the middle. It's gives the maximum utility for people, whilst also making it obvious that it's not a parking space.

SPACE | SPACE
--CHARGERS--
SPACE | SPACE

There's a sense to that. But it's less efficient use of space. Someone on line suggested why not move than one charging port to give better flexibility. But I guess you can just have a longer cable.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

There's a sense to that. But it's less efficient use of space. Someone on line suggested why not move than one charging port to give better flexibility. But I guess you can just have a longer cable.

Seems more efficient than the current approach of

S|S
P|P
A|A
C|C
E|E
==
X

Here's a video of a new Circle K garage in Norway.

beauf

liamog wrote: »

I didn't like the driving feel of the Zoe, it was slightly too high up, and too soft on the road. The fact the e-Up! has the uniqueness factor was just icing on the cake. Now that I think about, it's a similar reason why I'm buying the Mini over other options. I care more about how a car feels on the road than an extra 25% range which will very rarely be used.

I can see that. When I drove the Zoe I thought the same of the seating but I didn't get to do any spirited driving. I prefer the up for the driving but even as second car I thought it was noticeably smaller.

liamog

Back to OPs question, how long do you intend to keep the Zoe for? The points about the cost being worth it, and the potentially problematic depreciation are quite valid. For me, if I was keeping the Zoe for less than 2 years, I'd probably gamble on a battery lease. Yes it will be worth less than a battery owned one, but I'd have to look at is the €1,920 of battery lease, more or less than what I'd expect to lose on the value of the car compared to a battery owned version. Based entirely on gut feelings I think the changeover is around that 24 month mark.

Andy From Sligo

liamog wrote: »

Back to OPs question, how long do you intend to keep the Zoe for? The points about the cost being worth it, and the potentially problematic depreciation are quite valid. For me, if I was keeping the Zoe for less than 2 years, I'd probably gamble on a battery lease. Yes it will be worth less than a battery owned one, but I'd have to look at is the €1,920 of battery lease, more or less than what I'd expect to lose on the value of the car compared to a battery owned version. Based entirely on gut feelings I think the changeover is around that 24 month mark.

difficult for some people when they first buy their car how long they plan to keep it for . I suppose maybe one should know and plan ahead how long they intend to keep the car .
The battery owned Zoe i was looking at on DD seems so much good value for the money , as I think the only cheapest BO zoe i have seen near to that before was around 13grand mark - the mrs is like "why are they selling it cheap? - whats wrong with it?" .. I am thinking maybe the seller is thats what they want for it ... and it is a private sale as well.
i dont get this BMS update thing (is thats what its called) I think it were an update to be done on the older Zoes around that vintage of around 2015 wasnt it, something to address the issue of it not charging fully or not charging at all or something like that I think i read - how, if you were going to see a used Zoe, would one know if that was ever done? how could they find out and if it wasnt done and you bought the car can you as the new owner still get that carried out FOC by renault after you bought it?

regards sitting too high up - the drivers seat on the wifes 2016 Clio 4 has a lever on the drivers seat (dont think theres one on the passenger seat ) but basically the one in her clio you can pump it up or down with this lever ... nearly all the way down to the floor , but i personally like sitting up high in the drivers seat myself - the Zoe would have the same lever on the drivers seat as well wouldnt it ? ... or are you talking about how the actual car itself sits up high on the road?

liamog

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

regards sitting too high up - the drivers seat on the wifes 2016 Clio 4 has a lever on the drivers seat (dont think theres one on the passenger seat ) but basically the one in her clio you can pump it up or down with this lever ... nearly all the way down to the floor , but i personally like sitting up high in the drivers seat myself - the Zoe would have the same lever on the drivers seat as well wouldnt it ? ... or are you talking about how the actual car itself sits up high on the road?

Its hard to describe, it's not so much the position of the seat in the cabin as it is the overall tallness of the car relative to it's width. The car just didn't feel as well grounded as the e-Up! it's been about two and a half years since I decided so sorry if I can't be a little clearer . The other thing is the e-Up! feels quicker than the Zoe I was comparing it too. The motor's were near enough the same, but the Zoe is about 275kg heavier. The e-Up! has a certain go-cart feel about it.

Andy From Sligo

liamog wrote: »

Its hard to describe, it's not so much the position of the seat in the cabin as it is the overall tallness of the car relative to it's width. The car just didn't feel as well grounded as the e-Up! it's been about two and a half years since I decided so sorry if I can't be a little clearer . The other thing is the e-Up! feels quicker than the Zoe I was comparing it too. The motor's were near enough the same, but the Zoe is about 275kg heavier. The e-Up! has a certain go-cart feel about it.

thats alright - yes it most probably to do with suspension as well , the VW more than likely has better suspension than the Zoe and sits better - I am on a clio group and some have lowered their clios to make it sit lower , I dont think the suspension has never been the strongest plus on renault cars .

The e-up more than likely feels nippier as well because on looks it looks more compact on the outside than the zoe . - my daughters partner has a Corsa 2011 and same engine size as the wife's 2016 clio and both non-turbo and i think same bhp (75bhp I think it is) but his Corsa feels quicker than the Clio

Andy From Sligo

Finding it so hard to get hold of trying out a Renault Zoe for myself without having to travel far to try one out or take one for a test drive. I havent driven an automatic car for over 30 years , let alone ever tried to drive an electric car .
I might not even be able to get on ok with it being used to driving manual transmission cars for years, also i might find I have a go of a Zoe and hate it but I just cannot seem to get that chance unless I travel right out of my area for a test drive.

I even had an idea of hiring a Zoe , that I would even be prepared to pay 60/70eur to try one out on a days rental/hire charge. still no good.

Tried Hertz and they dont have any ev's in their range. Tried europcar and they only do fleet hire - then they put me in touch with Gocar.ie - not too up on how that works but they do have zoe to hire at around €60 for 24 hours but I dont think go hire base anywhere near me where i live in Sligo.

it would have to be old 22kw zoe 2014/2015 vintage because thats the only age one i would be able to afford if I were getting one around the €8,000 eur mark - so there lies another problem , I suppose showrooms would let me take out the new shape Zoe at €25,000 and upwards price range.

Have i any more options would anyone have any other ideas of how I could get to have a go/test drive of a renault zoe without having to travel miles out of the area where I am to do so?

punisher5112

Go car have some electric cars.... Now to think of it not 100% sure if there is a Zoe though.

Andy From Sligo

punisher5112 wrote: »

Go car have some electric cars.... Now to think of it not 100% sure if there is a Zoe though.

already tried went on their page and zoe was listed alright - but no bases anywhere near sligo. thanks anyway

unkel

Is there no Renault dealer in the Sligo/Mayo/Donegal area?

punisher5112

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

already tried went on their page and zoe was listed alright - but no bases anywhere near sligo. thanks anyway

Train it to Dublin or elsewhere where there is and try it out could be an option

RandomViewer

unkel wrote: »

Is there no Renault dealer in the Sligo/Mayo/Donegal area?

Highland motors Letterkenny anyway,

Andy From Sligo

unkel wrote: »

Is there no Renault dealer in the Sligo/Mayo/Donegal area?

nothing in Sligo or anywhere near it which is a shame , letterkenny got one but it 130kms from me - jj burke ballinrobe mayo havent any and 87kms away - the joys of living rural i suppose ... loads for sale in cork dublin and meath!

ED E

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

already tried went on their page and zoe was listed alright - but no bases anywhere near sligo. thanks anyway

Are you serious or is this another one of Andys daydreaming threads?


TBH if you were serious a spin to Dublin to test one or the position of the charge port wouldn't be your sticking point.

Andy From Sligo

ED E wrote: »

Are you serious or is this another one of Andys daydreaming threads?


TBH if you were serious a spin to Dublin to test one or the position of the charge port wouldn't be your sticking point.

whats up with you? - it costs nothing to be civil and your answer is not helpful so I fail to see why you bothered answering.

Anyway - to reiterate I dont want particularly want to travel miles away if I can help it just to try out one, but if it has to be then it has to be I suppose ...

liamog

Electricautos have a ZE40 in stock, they may let you have an extend test drive and offer a sourcing service if you do decide to buy.

https://www.electricautos.ie/vehicles/renault/zoe/kildare/2554856

Andy From Sligo

liamog wrote: »

Electricautos have a ZE40 in stock, they may let you have an extend test drive and offer a sourcing service if you do decide to buy.

https://www.electricautos.ie/vehicles/renault/zoe/kildare/2554856

Thanks for that - out of my price range - 22kw (to start off with lol) in my venture into the BEV world would be enough to me and a lot lot cheaper.

Keary's in cork is looking the most favourable at the moment they seem great 8,900euro for a 22kw 2015 and they pay the battery rental for 12 months too and €150 nationwide delivery .. so afraid thou if i were to get it and not get on with it and think I made one hell of a big (expensive) mistake if I didnt like it ... thats why I really need to try one first if I can

punisher5112

Wouldn't touch anything with battery rental, resale will be near impossible imo

liamog

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Thanks for that - out of my price range - 22kw (to start off with lol) in my venture into the BEV world would be enough to me and a lot lot cheaper.

Keary's in cork is looking the most favourable at the moment they seem great 8,900euro for a 22kw 2015 and they pay the battery rental for 12 months too and €150 nationwide delivery .. so afraid thou if i were to get it and not get on with it and think I made one hell of a big (expensive) mistake if I didnt like it ... thats why I really need to try one first if I can

The point was to get in touch re a test drive and then see if they could source a smaller batteried model for you from the UK. At least give them a shout and see what they say.

Andy From Sligo

punisher5112 wrote: »

Wouldn't touch anything with battery rental, resale will be near impossible imo

(if i liked it) I couldnt even think/see myself selling it on again (especially if I got it on 5 years HP!) -
I like the idea that on battery rental that you can get recovery as many times as you like (I think even if you had recovery built in with a fully comp insurance there is a limit to how many time you can use it in a month)
And the 70% thing, that if you are paying for battery rental, renault ensure / guarantee your battery at 70% - so that if it falls below that they can replace the defective cells (or the battery) to bring you back to 70% levels - and I think I read somewhere if you have battery rental you dont have to pay the extra for the disposal of the car like you do with a battery owned (maybe I read that wrong?)

liamog

Not a single EV driver here has said it's worth it, trust us, it's not. You will not need to use a recovery service more than your normal comprehensive insurance covers, and you really don't need to worry about the battery degradation for a few more years.

Andy From Sligo

liamog wrote: »

The point was to get in touch re a test drive and then see if they could source a smaller batteried model for you from the UK. At least give them a shout and see what they say.

oh right - yes good Idea . , and if I were to test drive a 50kw zoe , everything else will bethe same as a 22kw older model would it?

you know , like a 50kw zo - is the only difference the range and the bigger battery and everything still the same? - like the way the car drives on both and controls etc?

thanks

liamog

Not sure about the Zoe 50 they may have a slight interior refresh, the 2017 Zoe 40 is almost the same as a 2015 Zoe

Andy From Sligo

liamog wrote: »

Not a single EV driver here has said it's worth it, trust us, it's not. You will not need to use a recovery service more than your normal comprehensive insurance covers, and you really don't need to worry about the battery degradation for a few more years.

ah, right - the only other issue is that the battery owned ones are expensive / hold their value and then make buying much more expensive ... so then again out of my budget The other week I saw a battery owned 2014 or 2015 on DD for 8,700 - first off that was unusual and alarm bells rang (like what was wrong with it going that price for BO) and then the next thing it was a private sale and at least if you get from a dealer/forecourt you should have some kind of warranty after buying - you have nothing really with a private seller i shouldnt think.

Andy From Sligo

liamog wrote: »

Not sure about the Zoe 50 they may have a slight interior refresh, the 2017 Zoe 40 is almost the same as a 2015 Zoe

great thanks, I am new to all this (in case you hadnt noticed )

liamog

That's it, I'd put the value of the recovery service and degradation protection at €0.
Then it's just a case of are you willing to spend €80 a month to save €3,000 on the purchase price.
That's a decision only you can make, but just be aware that the depreciation on the battery lease car may be higher than the non lease version, but you paid less anyway so it might even out.

MarkN

The interior of the 50 is fully upgraded and a lot of the dash is based on the new Clio. Underneath the skin, it’s a lot of the same car but the interior is a total refresh.

Andy From Sligo

MarkN wrote: »

The interior of the 50 is fully upgraded and a lot of the dash is based on the new Clio. Underneath the skin, it’s a lot of the same car but the interior is a total refresh.

thanks, so in terms of driving though same gearshift (is that what they call it in an automatic car?) in the 50 as the older 22kw and same feel to driving? - same suspension feel or has the 50 been upgraded on the 50? - same front drivers seat ie confort / support? or has that been improved in the 50 as well?
and does the 50 feel more responsive to drive thanthe older zoe or has just the range increased with the later (but still shape as the old) zoe? can you tell me?

thanks

MarkN

Hey Andy - I haven't driven the older version so I'm not sure on some of the questions. It feels very nippy, a little bit of wheel spin at times but torque steer is nicely managed overall. In eco mode there's still enough power too, was hard to see if it had any true energy saving though. A motorist in a CLK coupe tried to have a little go at a set of lights against it and the Zoe just pulled and pulled away.

The driver and passenger seat still don't have height adjustment, there's a bit of lumbar support, manual adjustment.

I've put together a video of the car here, it will show you around a bit hopefully. If you've any other questions I'll try help.

stesaurus

If you're serious then stick a post up on one of the FB pages and ask if there are any Zoe 22kWh owners nearby.
I'm sure they'd give you a spin and let you have a look around. Might even be one or 2 thinking of selling.
Your budget seems tight so if I was you I'd go battery owned and a private sale. A dealer will only give you a 6 month warranty anyway.

unkel

stesaurus wrote: »

Might even be one or 2 thinking of selling.

For sure if they reckon they've found a fool who will take over their battery lease

stesaurus

unkel wrote: »

For sure if they reckon they've found a fool who will take over their battery lease

You're so against the lease, I don't know why? Leased versions can go for between 3-5k less. That's a lot of months' battery lease payments.
They never check the mileage, so just take the lowest monthly offer. I think that's about €60 so if you sell it after 4-5 years you'll probably break even.
Or ya know just stop paying it and pull out the SIM

unkel

stesaurus wrote: »

Leased versions can go for between 3-5k less.

If only.

stesaurus wrote: »

so if you sell it after 4-5 years you'll probably break even

If you could sell it, sure!

A 2015 battery owned Zoe was for sale for around €8k asking a few days ago. If only you could get a 2015 battery lease Zoe for around €3-€4k. That would start to makes sense alright. Just scrap it when you are done with it after a few years. If you're on a budget and you want to own an EV for as little money as possible in total cost of ownership, a €4-5k Leaf (battery owned) makes a lot more sense.

Andy From Sligo

MarkN wrote: »

Hey Andy - I haven't driven the older version so I'm not sure on some of the questions. It feels very nippy, a little bit of wheel spin at times but torque steer is nicely managed overall. In eco mode there's still enough power too, was hard to see if it had any true energy saving though. A motorist in a CLK coupe tried to have a little go at a set of lights against it and the Zoe just pulled and pulled away.

The driver and passenger seat still don't have height adjustment, there's a bit of lumbar support, manual adjustment.

I've put together a video of the car here, it will show you around a bit hopefully. If you've any other questions I'll try help.

many thanks for the reply, brilliant I shall watch that video later on today thanks.

stesaurus wrote: »

If you're serious then stick a post up on one of the FB pages and ask if there are any Zoe 22kWh owners nearby.
I'm sure they'd give you a spin and let you have a look around. Might even be one or 2 thinking of selling.
Your budget seems tight so if I was you I'd go battery owned and a private sale. A dealer will only give you a 6 month warranty anyway.

good idea - i mentioned that to the mrs a couple of nights ago and she reckoned if it was other times out of this covid times there may have been someone local with a zoe willing to let me have a drive of it in a car park or something but she reckoned people might be wary at this time.
Kearys in Cork seem a great dealer at the moment in my estimates they seem really good - they say 2years warranty on renault selection cars as standard and they pay the first 12 months of the battery lease. they really sound like a good dealer. Anyone else on here used them or know of them? - the one i was looking at (2014) has (well I think) high mileage @ 95,026 km (thats quite high isnt it especially for a BEV?) but thats my budget , I suppose if it were much less mileage it would be another grand or more on top - and 2014 is getting on a bit in years , but again budget and this will be my first venture into owning an electric vehicle - at least there will be no issues with timing belt not being changed or worn exhaust lol

unkel wrote: »

For sure if they reckon they've found a fool who will take over their battery lease

Yes! - I would be that 'fool' .. only because of budget at time of buying .. sure we could all look back after years of having it and say 'bloody hell - look at all that I paid in battery rental alone!' - it was the same when I was growing up we never ever bought a telly or video outright we always rented and and years later when we looked back on how much we paid on renting a telly we could have bought it 3 times over!