Used Model S vs Model 3 vs ID.3 vs eNiro etc.

Kramer

Hypothetical & ignoring price but these could loosely be considered very similar in terms of range/price, for which would you opt & why?

Option 1.
Used UK Model S, 70kWh to 85kWh - €35k, range, 350km? Older vehicle, 5 or possibly 6 years old.
Option 2.
eNiro/eSoul 64kWh - €40k - 400km - hatchback/new.
Option 3.
Model 3 SR+ 50kWh - OK, it's dearer because it's only available new, but imagine a year old one was available for €35/40k.
Saloon, not a great looker, range - 350km, but a Tesla!
Option 4.
ID.3 1st - 58kWh, brand new, €34k, hatch, latest tech, known brand, range - 350km.

I guess the lack of the practicality of a hatch goes against the Model 3 but it charges really quickly & has the benefit of the Tesla supercharging network & CCS from Ionity etc. for sustained 120kW charging (peak 170kW).

Which would you choose?
Is the Tesla still more desirable given the other options now available?

Black_Knight

I assume option 1 is a cpo with warranty.
And option 3 doesn't exist yet and is speculative regarding price. I don't see a 1 year old 3 being 35-40k. Low 40s I'd imagine.

Option 4(id3) while competitive on price and range, isn't the same practicality as the others. I've not seen one, but is golf sized, where the others are small->large family cars.

650Ginge

Black_Knight wrote: »

I assume option 1 is a cpo with warranty.
And option 3 doesn't exist yet and is speculative regarding price. I don't see a 1 year old 3 being 35-40k. Low 40s I'd imagine.

Option 4(id3) while competitive on price and range, isn't the same practicality as the others. I've not seen one, but is golf sized, where the others are small->large family cars.

Model 3 at 1 yr old are asking more than new here....not sure that will continue when other options get better.

MS is too big, M3 too pricey, e-niro is super functional a to b getter but dull, so it looks like the ID3. But I'd have to drive it, I'm sensitive to noisy cars. So maybe ID3 next year. But then there will be IX3. And who know what else.

What about 2nd hand iPace. I have no idea on the price though.

Shefwedfan

The best car is the ID.3

Used Tesla could be a money pit
The Niro isn’t much taller to the eGolf and similar size internally
Model 3 is over priced
ID3 is actually bigger inside to eGold, no idea compared to Tesla but it Passat size as they could fit more in.

Lumen

ID.3 is unproven at this point. Is it even possible to test drive one?

I'd stick with the Koreans for reliability and proven EV drivetrain, but I'd want a heat pump.

Shefwedfan

Lumen wrote: »

ID.3 is unproven at this point. Is it even possible to test drive one?

I'd stick with the Koreans for reliability and proven EV drivetrain, but I'd want a heat pump.

Even today the eGolf is one of the best electric cars on the market.



Nothing wrong with Koerans but the interior is just a step down IMO. I was surprised when I pulled up in the eGolf beside the Niro. Not a whole pile of difference in height. The ID I think is taller so they will probably be similar.

Lumen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Even today the eGolf is one of the best electric cars on the market.

Do you work for VW or VW dealer?

Black_Knight

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Nothing wrong with Koerans but the interior is just a step down IMO.

I've not seen them in the flesh (few have) but the interior/drivers dash on the ID3 looks horrendous to me. Bit fisher price.

Shefwedfan

Black_Knight wrote: »

I've not seen them in the flesh (few have) but the interior/drivers dash on the ID3 looks horrendous to me. Bit fisher price.

Havent seen the ID3.



I did test drive the Niro and I sat into a Kona. They where ok. I suppose depends on personal taste more than anything. Someone pointed out to me on the Niro the console doesnt line up at the radio etc....that would annoy me :-)

I do have the eGolf and a huge step up but I do like a VW

Black_Knight

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Havent seen the ID3.



I did test drive the Niro and I sat into a Kona. Not great.



I do have the eGolf and a huge step up but I do like a VW

Irish Kona is depressing inside. So grey for so much money. I've read/heard that the Irish eNiro isn't paddy spec'd, and has a better interior. Still Korean level of quality, but not bad.

unkel

Voted Model 3. You are way too optimistic about the price though

In real life I couldn't live with the impracticality of a boot for our only family car, need a hatch back for the dog and for carrying things. Have 3 kids so the ID.3 is too small for a family of 5. Kia eNiro is an excellent EV by all means but €40k is a lot of money for what basically is a long range econobox from Korea. So that would leave the second hand Model S. A lot of bad things to say about that car too, but it suits me best.

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The best car is the ID.3

How can you say that , considering they haven’t released it yet?
They have built several thousand but can’t get the software working.

liamog

ted1 wrote: »

How can you say that , considering they haven’t released it yet?
They have built several thousand but can’t get the software working.

Are you aware of what the software issues are? The augmented part of the AR display, Android Auto/Carplay don't work, and over the air updates won't work until the dealer update is applied. The way some sources are reporting the software you'd swear the car is unusable.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Are you aware of what the software issues are? The augmented part of the AR display, Android Auto/Carplay don't work, and over the air updates won't work until the dealer update is applied. The way some sources are reporting the software you'd swear the car is unusable.

His point is still valid. The car isn't released yet, yet some are claiming it's the best.

Lumen

liamog wrote: »

Are you aware of what the software issues are? The augmented part of the AR display, Android Auto/Carplay don't work, and over the air updates won't work until the dealer update is applied. The way some sources are reporting the software you'd swear the car is unusable.

There's a long piece here which gives some hints of what's going on.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/06/15/volkswagen-where-are-you-going/

Herbert Diess, VW Group CEO wrote:

It will be years before we have reached the necessary level of expertise in software to be able to compete at the forefront. (…) Even today, hardly a line of software code comes from us.

unkel

Black_Knight wrote: »

His point is still valid. The car isn't released yet, yet some are claiming it's the best.

I feel it's a reasonable expectation that the car will be good.

VW is the biggest car maker in the world. Even when they made a compliance EV (the eGolf), it was an excellent car. Most (early and recent) Golfs have been good drivers cars despite being FWD. The ID.3 is a dedicated EV, built as such from the ground up, is rear wheel drive, with plenty of power and torque which is instantly available. The 0-50km/h time is similar as the likes of a BMW M3 (costing 3 times as much)

So yeah, I have no doubt it will be good. The only areas of worry that I would have are the software (it's a big step up for the company) and that the interior quality is not on a par with what we have come to expect for a VW in that price class.

liamog

Lumen wrote: »

There's a long piece here which gives some hints of what's going on.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/06/15/volkswagen-where-are-you-going/

I don't trust that author, he's overly critical of German automakers and noticeably pro Tesla. Which makes sense when you see this in his bio. I prefer my reporters to not have skin in the game.

Alex Voigt has been a supporter of the mission to transform the world to sustainable carbon free energy for 40 years. As an engineer, he is fascinated with the ability of humankind to develop a better future via the use of technology. With 30 years of experience in the stock market, he is invested in Tesla [TSLA], as well as some other tech companies, for the long term.

VW have software issues, but they don't appear to be the make the car unusable kind, again, the missing software on the ID.3 is Android Auto/Car Play some of the fancier AR features, and over the air updates. It's hardly a car destroying list of missing features.

Shefwedfan

Lumen wrote: »

There's a long piece here which gives some hints of what's going on.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/06/15/volkswagen-where-are-you-going/

Cleantechnica along with a number of those websites have shares in Tesla. Anything non Tesla gets bad press and anything Tesla is incredible and never done before.



So unfortuneatly this websites are not a good source of information.



THe biggest compliment these websites have given VW is they spend their entire time trying to bad mouth VW at every turn. The reason, well a good VW is bad for Tesla and its share price.

Lumen

liamog wrote: »

I don't trust that author, he's overly critical of German automakers and noticeably pro Tesla.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Cleantechnica along with a number of those websites have shares in Tesla

Good points, it is quite difficult to get objective reporting on EVs.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the quality is like. I trust nothing and nobody!

drunkmonkey

Black_Knight wrote: »

I've not seen them in the flesh (few have) but the interior/drivers dash on the ID3 looks horrendous to me. Bit fisher price.

Have you seen the Tesla? I've Tonka trucks here with better interiors.
As for reliability I think this says it all "Tesla are basically crap"

Isn't the 1st out of the equation I thought they were sold out, leaves the plus and Max which are another 7/14k more expensive.

Kramer

Interesting replies .

Just imagine these four were all available now, all approximately the same price, a six year old Model S, a one year old Model 3, a year old eNiro/eSoul or brand spanking new ID.3 1st.

So we're ruling out price here, & availability, & warranty, & possible issues with software etc.

If you could have one of the four, all things being equal, would you still go for the Tesla?

drunkmonkey

If it wasn't for the wonky looks I think the eSoul is the coolest car of them all and has nice extras. The shape doesn't suit European buyers tastes though it's designed for the American market.

Shefwedfan

Kramer wrote: »

Interesting replies .

Just imagine these four were all available now, all approximately the same price, a six year old Model S, a one year old Model 3, a year old eNiro/eSoul or brand spanking new ID.3 1st.

So we're ruling out price here, & availability, & warranty, & possible issues with software etc.

If you could have one of the four, all things being equal, would you still go for the Tesla?

Personally I wouldn't go Tesla.

Kramer

Those who voted for the ID.3, would you chose a Model 3 instead if a 201 plated, almost new etc. was available for practically the same money?

Or is the hatchback the deciding factor here?
Happy to sacrifice Tesla's supercharger network (poor as it is here!),very fast charging, tech & size for the smaller ID.3, because it's a hatch & VW?

Or......does everyone still aspire to a Tesla?

.

Shefwedfan

Kramer wrote: »

Those who voted for the ID.3, would you chose a Model 3 instead if a 201 plated, almost new etc. was available for practically the same money?

Or is the hatchback the deciding factor here?
Happy to sacrifice Tesla's supercharger network (poor as it is here!),very fast charging, tech & size for the smaller ID.3, because it's a hatch & VW?

Or......does everyone still aspire to a Tesla?

.

Do people aspire to a Tesla?


Personally I would aspire to an Audi E-Tron. If not looking at supercars etc of course

drunkmonkey

Hoping a Panamera Grand Tourismo Sport Hybrid is within price range when the ID3 is 3yrs old, Aspire to a Tesla, lol.

AmberGold

Model 3 is the way to go here, best tech, CCS charging, & supercharger network. I’ve seen a few pop up in the UK for ok money.

The Model S is a fantastic car, it didn’t win the “Best Car Ever” award for nothing. Would you be comfortable dropping 40k on a car without warranty?

Shefwedfan

AmberGold wrote: »

Model 3 is the way to go here, best tech, CCS charging, & supercharger network. I’ve seen a few pop up in the UK for ok money.

The Model S is a fantastic car, it didn’t win the “Best Car Ever” award for nothing. Would you be comfortable dropping 40k on a car without warranty?

Sorry but how the f**k can you win a best car ever award?


What happens if they release a Model 3 v1.1. Doesn't that win "Best car ever ever" award? :P


That sound like an award you get at those teen magazines. Like Best song ever in the World which goes to Justin Bieber :P

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

Those who voted for the ID.3, would you chose a Model 3 instead if a 201 plated, almost new etc. was available for practically the same money?

It's not though, is it?

ID.3 is EUR34k brand new
Cheapest Model 3 second hand in this country I can imaging is more like EUR44k

liamog

It's hard to pick between the cars, because they are each in a different market segment.
People choose cars based on more than just rank in a price list.

Personally I like small hatches, none of the above really fit the bill.

AmberGold

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sorry but how the f**k can you win a best car ever award?


What happens if they release a Model 3 v1.1. Doesn't that win "Best car ever ever" award? :P


That sound like an award you get at those teen magazines. Like Best song ever in the World which goes to Justin Bieber :P

Waiting in the long grass to pounce 😄 we all know these awards are BS. Here it is anyway..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thedriven.io/2019/07/12/tesla-model-s-wins-ultimate-accolade-as-best-car-in-70-years/amp/

No denying it though it’s a great car, love the e golf as well having bought one for my father.

In the OP’s situation the 3 is the one at the right money.

ted1

liamog wrote: »

Are you aware of what the software issues are? The augmented part of the AR display, Android Auto/Carplay don't work, and over the air updates won't work until the dealer update is applied. The way some sources are reporting the software you'd swear the car is unusable.

If it was useable would they not be giving it customers.
Not giving it to customers would infer that it’s not useable.

drunkmonkey

I was told it's fine not an issue on the 1st the feature giving the nearest charging station doesn't work. I'd hope Android auto is ok, I also read it'll have Netflix etc like the Tesla but not sure if it's working out of the box.

Shefwedfan

AmberGold wrote: »

Waiting in the long grass to pounce �� we all know these awards are BS. Here it is anyway..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thedriven.io/2019/07/12/tesla-model-s-wins-ultimate-accolade-as-best-car-in-70-years/amp/

No denying it though it’s a great car, love the e golf as well having bought one for my father.

In the OP’s situation the 3 is the one at the right money.

This is the best bit


Beating US auto market mainstays such as Chevy, Totoya and Cadillac, the Model S first made motoring legend status in as Motor Trend Car of the Year for 2013


then this nugget



Other vehicles shortlisted for the Ultimate Car of the Year award included the 1949 Cadillac lineup, the 1955 Chevrolet lineup, the 1968 Pontiac GTO, the 1972 Citroën SM, the 1986 Mazda RX-7, the 1996 Dodge Caravan, and the 2004 Toyota Prius.

Yes the Tesla is a good car but come on now......

timsey tiger

unkel wrote: »

It's not though, is it?

ID.3 is EUR34k brand new
Cheapest Model 3 second hand in this country I can imaging is more like EUR44k

Yea, I thought that €13k depreciation in 1 year for an ev seemed a bit steep €5k is more reassuring. Seems like one of those surveys with questions designed to skew results.

Mike3287

unkel wrote: »

The ID.3 is a dedicated EV, built as such from the ground up, is rear wheel drive, with plenty of power and torque which is instantly available. The 0-50km/h time is similar as the likes of a BMW M3 (costing 3 times as much)

Its a quick car Unkel, but lol @ that similar to BMW M3

Modern M3 does 0-100km/h in sub 4.0 secs, 0-50km/h in 1.5 secs

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m3-f80

ID3 is about twice slow at 3.0s to 0-50km/h, still mad quick for the road

Id buy the ID3 OP

A steal at €34,000

liamog

ted1 wrote: »

If it was useable would they not be giving it customers.
Not giving it to customers would infer that it’s not useable.

I don't know about you ted1 but I find car's pretty usable without Android Auto. They seem to do ok at going from a to b without it.

Lumen

liamog wrote: »

I don't know about you ted1 but I find car's pretty usable without Android Auto. They seem to do ok at going from a to b without it.

Regardless, they clearly have been having massiven Softwareproblemen.

https://www.manager-magazin.de/unternehmen/autoindustrie/volkswagen-ag-elektroauto-id-3-mit-massiven-softwareproblemen-a-1301896.html

unkel

Mike3287 wrote: »

Its a quick car Unkel, but lol @ that similar to BMW M3

Modern M3 does 0-100km/h in sub 4.0 secs, 0-50km/h in 1.5 secs

That's quick! Thanks for posting. I had the figure for the older E92 in mind I think. Somehow it's in my head it did it in about 3s - think I saw a comparison of it against an i3 sometime and they were very similar

unkel

liamog wrote: »

I don't know about you ted1 but I find car's pretty usable without Android Auto. They seem to do ok at going from a to b without it.

Android auto is sh1t as long as you have to plug your phone in. Haven't plugged my phones in for anything for nearly a decade. Not going to start that crap again now, it's a bit 1995. Never used it in Ioniq (that had Android Auto as standard)

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

Android auto is sh1t as long as you have to plug your phone in. Haven't plugged my phones in for anything for nearly a decade. Not going to start that crap again now, it's a bit 1995. Never used it in Ioniq (that had Android Auto as standard)

Android Auto Wireless is a thing now.

https://9to5google.com/2020/03/30/android-auto-wireless-supported-countries/

I found Android Auto on the Kona fairly useless. It would probably be great with the big screen on the Model 3, but that's not how Elon rolls. We can't even get nav waypoints...

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

Android Auto Wireless is a thing now.

I know, I have it on my phone running Android 11. Only works if the car side of things is wireless too though

Does any car even offer this now?

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

I know, I have it on my phone running Android 11. Only works if the car side of things is wireless too though

Does any car even offer this now?

BMW, sort of. OTA update coming. This from a few days ago...

https://paultan.org/2020/06/25/bmw-showcases-wireless-android-auto-on-its-cars/

The experience looks underwhelming TBH.

Krusty_Clown

Apparently these do: Link. List includes the I-Pace, Niro and Soul (EVs), Leaf. Will give it a go on the eNiro at some point, but don't see many uses for Android Auto, as I get most of what I need from the Bluetooth connection. *Oh wait, that list doesn't specifically call out Wireless Android Auto, so may just be a list of Android Auto-supported vehicles.

Lumen

Android Auto is an odd thing. In most implementations I've seen, the screen is no bigger than your phone, and your phone (well my phone anyway) has an Auto app on it with everything big and distraction free. If I can interact with the phone using voice commands, then all that car integration and second screen engineering is only saving me from mounting the phone somewhere I can see it and charge it at the same time.

It would be as handy to have a little wireless charging shelf closer to eye level, and then keep the screen in the car for automotive functions. I guess not all phones support wireless charging (mine doesn't) but then not all phones support Wireless AA, so...?

It all feels like an unhappy fusion of Big Auto and Big Data that neither are really bought into.

Maybe it'll make more sense when when every car is blanketed with screens like the Taycan or Honda e.

drunkmonkey

I use Android auto every day in a golf, I'm not seeing why all the hate, waze has saved my bacon a few times. It work perfectly.

liamog

I like Android Auto, we use it regularly in the Ioniq to run Waze, but I wouldn't claim a car was unusable because it was unavailable for the first 6 months which is what some people are doing for the ID.3.

eagerv

liamog wrote: »

I like Android Auto, we use it regularly in the Ioniq to run Waze, but I wouldn't claim a car was unusable because it was unavailable for the first 6 months which is what some people are doing for the ID.3.

I thought it was available from day 1 (Except for Apple car play in wireless form) I had to sign a disclaimer when ordering which I think stated such amongst a few other later items not in the base 1st anyway.


Like Android Auto also, but not to worried about having to plug it in.

Lumen

liamog wrote: »

I like Android Auto, we use it regularly in the Ioniq to run Waze, but I wouldn't claim a car was unusable because it was unavailable for the first 6 months which is what some people are doing for the ID.3.

I interpreted ted1's post to mean that the car was unusable because the car wasn't available.

Rusky rusky

eagerv wrote: »

I thought it was available from day 1 (Except for Apple car play in wireless form) I had to sign a disclaimer when ordering which I think stated such amongst a few other later items not in the base 1st anyway.


Like Android Auto also, but not to worried about having to plug it in.

Was it Ireland? I haven’t signed any disclaimers in Cork.

eagerv

Rusky rusky wrote: »

Was it Ireland? I haven’t signed any disclaimers in Cork.

Yep, my dealer in South East.