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Detective Garda Colm Horkan killed in Castlerea, Roscommon - [MOD WARNING POST #1]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭Hasmunch


    Garda named as Detective Garda Colm Horkan, RIP

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0617/1148139-garda-shooting/


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭quokula


    Isn't it Norway that could only give a mass murderer a sentence of 21 years?

    Not a great system there IMO to give as an example.

    Yeah who'd want to use a country with one of the lowest homicide rates in the world as an example of how to achieve low homicide rates.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    I hear ya. But what is the alternative? Non custodial sentences have been the norm for a very long time now and yet nothing has changed.

    As has been mentioned, some Scandinavian countries are heading in the opposite direction and making a serious attempts to reform. Seems to be working well. Portugal too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,622 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Norway has a longitudinal recidivism rate which is less than half of Ireland's or the UK's. The evidence is there, but unfortunately in Ireland it is a third rail issue. Too many people don't want to hear it.

    They have more money than us. They can spend in ways we cannot. It is inarguable that people who are locked up cannot commit more crimes. Habitual criminals need to be locked up for many decades, until they're old and pose no further threat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    This is modern Ireland with no morals or values ... the Utopia the PC brigade love .... don’t like your neighbour just kill him ....


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    So its the prisons fault is it?

    There are already programmes and education opportunities in place for those who want to change their life but a lot of them don't and have no fear of going to prison at all because they know they will be out again in a few years.

    Prison is a social construct concept, therefore “we” as a society are responsible for what we construct, and how that functions. So I’m saying, with exceptions of course, that it’s my fault, and it’s your fault, if we lock someone up for more than is necessary which impedes reform then we are responsible.

    So you’re saying criminals commit crime because the consequences are not harsh, would you have any studies or data to back this up?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭quokula


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    This is modern Ireland with no morals or values ... the Utopia the PC brigade love .... don’t like your neighbour just kill him ....

    That is utter nonsense.

    While we're not best-in-class like Norway, it has to be said that Ireland also has very low homicide rates compared to most of the world, higher than Scandinavia but lower than most major European countries like France, Germany and the UK.

    Which is why tragic events like this are so shocking, and so rare. And I'd rather keep it that way, rather than escalate things and try and implement policies that would turn is into a country with ten times the murder rate like the USA.


  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    This is modern Ireland with no morals or values ... the Utopia the PC brigade love .... don’t like your neighbour just kill him ....

    Try engaging your brain for once.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,677 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Yes.

    The RTÉ article makes it seem like Horkan was headed home or to work and just saw a guy on the street that he need to talk to for some reason.

    Just how it seems to me.

    I believe he was on duty and he was responding to a domestic incident.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,677 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    This is modern Ireland with no morals or values ... the Utopia the PC brigade love .... don’t like your neighbour just kill him ....

    You should start building a bunker- it's the only way you'll be safe.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    You lock them up and throw away the key.

    There really is nothing complicated about it.

    America has tough sentences, mass incarceration, all the things you're looking for, are you seriously suggesting we copy that model.

    It's not solving law and order issues in the US, why would it work here?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    Busterie wrote: »
    I wonder if BLM and other political fashonistas will be protesting about this.

    This may answer your question:

    Danny Healy-Rae and Cork TD Michael Collins criticised for saying 'all lives matter'

    "Two TDs have been told to "wake up and smell the coffee" after declaring that "all lives matter" during Dáil statements on combatting racism. Kerry TD Danny Healy-Rae and Cork South-West TD Michael Collins each used the phrase today, earning a rebuke from the Irish Network Against Racism (INAR)."

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/danny-healy-rae-and-cork-td-michael-collins-criticised-for-saying-all-lives-matter-1005739.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    GIMP wrote: »
    Do you have a link to this, I live in Lusk and never heard of this incident!

    Happened a year or so ago, was only in court recently.

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-detectives-attacked-by-15-youths-in-dublin-court-hears-1004733.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    Don't know if it's as bad in Ireland (sounds like it isn't much better) but the law in the UK makes a total mockery of the police. They pour all these (limited) resources into operations, risk their lives on a daily basis with so many more scumbags willing to start a fight these days, hopefully manage to get a charge from the crown prosecution service which is a tricky one itself, then it's a lottery as to whether a judge gives the criminal what they're due or a few sweets and sent on their way. Total joke and lack of respect from the law and government.

    RIP to this officer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,381 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    begbysback wrote: »
    Prison is a social construct concept, therefore “we” as a society are responsible for what we construct, and how that functions. So I’m saying, with exceptions of course, that it’s my fault, and it’s your fault, if we lock someone up for more than is necessary which impedes reform then we are responsible.

    So you’re saying criminals commit crime because the consequences are not harsh, would you have any studies or data to back this up?

    Knock yourself out jack if you want to shoulder the burden for criminals re offending but leave me out of it.

    Its certainaly not "my fault" if someone is a scumbag.

    As for your last point we don't need any studies, just read any article and you will see someone in court with dozens of previous convictions and doing the same thing again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    begbysback wrote: »
    1) the term you use, “harsher” - why aren’t you using the term “accurate” - harsher is used by those who want to punish for the sake of punishment.

    2) distinguishing between delinquency and hardened criminals is difficult, longer sentences for delinquents make them hardened criminals

    3) prison is meant to reform, though it doesn’t seem to be successful, therefore longer sentences have little impact on society, other than the obvious which the usual shortsighted people will point to.

    4) there are plenty of examples in countries around the world that longer sentences do not reduce crime

    There are a finite amount of criminals in Ireland. Longer sentences means less scum on the street. Means less crime. Or do you believe that for every scummer locked up, another one appears??


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,840 ✭✭✭hetuzozaho


    Do guns like that exist?

    They've been in movies and TV shows but I assumed such technology was a long way off. Never thought of how they have it in phones.

    Looks like they exist but reservations around reliability.

    This is interesting though: https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2014/06/24/325178305/a-new-jersey-law-thats-kept-smart-guns-off-shelves-nationwide


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    Got his gun taken from him and shot dead with it. This is why at times in the US the cops shoot first and ask questions later.

    Pity this Garda didn't do the same.

    You have no idea how that Garda felt about police shootings or police brutality in America.

    You have no right to use his memory or this tragedy to further your own political views.

    This situation was nothing like some of the American shootings, the Gardai are tens times better than some of the US police. They don't shoot people in the back or kneel on necks until death, or burst into homes shooting a young woman in her bed.

    I'm fully supportive of the Gardai, this is truly shocking tragedy this morning, and should not be diminished by political point scoring.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    Knock yourself out jack if you want to shoulder the burden for criminals re offending but leave me out of it.

    Its certainaly not "my fault" if someone is a scumbag.

    As for your last point we don't need any studies, just read any article and you will see someone in court with dozens of previous convictions and doing the same thing again.

    Like I said, there are exceptions, those who cannot be reformed. At the moment prisons are generally made up of, those who cannot be reformed, those who can, and those who really belong in a mental health institution. When I say “prison”, I’m considering all of these. I would hold myself, as a member if this society, somewhat responsible for 2/3.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's a tragedy, RIP. Further details are needed to understand what happened.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭Spon Farmer


    hetuzozaho wrote: »
    Looks like they exist but reservations around reliability.

    This is interesting though: https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2014/06/24/325178305/a-new-jersey-law-thats-kept-smart-guns-off-shelves-nationwide

    I haven't seen the phones that have fingerprint scanners.

    I was thinking about the reliability.

    How often has your phone not recognised your finger print on a first attempt? Or has I always worked?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Joe Columbo


    begbysback wrote: »
    Prison is a social construct concept, therefore “we” as a society are responsible for what we construct, and how that functions. So I’m saying, with exceptions of course, that it’s my fault, and it’s your fault, if we lock someone up for more than is necessary which impedes reform then we are responsible.

    So you’re saying criminals commit crime because the consequences are not harsh, would you have any studies or data to back this up?




    "We" didn't do anything.It's the person who done this is to blame nobody else.


    Collective guilt is a load of pseudo intellectual nonsense but of course some people just want anything to absolve people from responsibility so they blame society for individuals acting out.



    You do harm to another person and it's your fault and no-one else is to blame.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭GIMP



    Says North dublin, no mention of Lusk


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Busterie wrote: »
    I wonder if BLM and other political fashonistas will be protesting about this.

    That group having been looking to attack the police for a long time, even chanting to kill police in lots of their protests. They have turned out to be a dangerous group of left wing fascists.
    They will probably blame the victim for this shooting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,622 ✭✭✭Nermal


    begbysback wrote: »
    Prison is a social construct concept, therefore “we” as a society are responsible for what we construct, and how that functions.

    It is only due to failings of the individual that prison is needed at all. Blaming the functioning (or malfunctioning) of prison on 'society' is simply an attempt to absolve individuals of proper responsibility for their own actions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,600 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    Awful news, RIP.

    I'm shocked to learn that members of AGS are sent to incidents on their own. I occasionally look at police programmes from other countries and they're always in pairs and have body cams.

    The RTE report states that the guards have requested anyone with dash cam footage to come forward. Serious investment is needed to modernise Garda equipment and allow them to do their job more efficiently, and hopefully, safely.

    Condolences to his family, friends and colleagues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    It is a pity that we cannot at this time separate those that remorseful of their crimes and who can be and want to be reformed from those who cannot and will not be reformed.
    We can do better than we do right now. Though. At the moment we basically make no attempt to separate them. And on infects the other.

    Our prison system (never mind backwards ones like the US) is a place where going to prison is for many criminals a guarantee of recidivism, not a deterrent. Especially when they go in younger.

    Reform of the service is needed to basically give offenders the benefit of the doubt on first go, and segregate them based not only on their risk to the public, but their risk to other offenders.

    A kid going in at 19 for six months on his first serious offence shouldn't be mixing with 29 year olds doing five years on their tenth conviction. Likewise anyone serving a life sentence should have access to nobody except others serving a life sentence. I have no doubt that at some point people believed that people serving long sentences would "scare straight" the newbies. But often the exact opposite happens, and these individuals become leaders and role models for young offenders.

    Independent assessments should be mandatory to assess not only individual's risk of reoffending, but their general vulnerability in prison. This would give a much better idea of what kind of custodial sentence is appropriate, and the kind of programmes they could be put on to improve their reform.

    Eventually those who are immune to reform will make themselves visible and they can be more appropriately removed from the rest of the prison population.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭bloodless_coup


    joe40 wrote: »
    You have no idea how that Garda felt about police shootings or police brutality in America.

    You have no right to use his memory or this tragedy to further your own political views.

    This situation was nothing like some of the American shootings, the Gardai are tens times better than some of the US police. They don't shoot people in the back or kneel on necks until death, or burst into homes shooting a young woman in her bed.

    I'm fully supportive of the Gardai, this is truly shocking tragedy this morning, and should not be diminished by political point scoring.

    What are you ranting on about, I wasn't making any political statement or claiming the Garda felt anything one way or the other.

    Oh and if you want to get up on a high horse and try to berate me for using "his memory or this tragedy to further your own political views" then it's not a good idea to follow up with your own political point scoring anti police rant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    "We" didn't do anything.It's the person who done this is to blame nobody else.


    Collective guilt is a load of pseudo intellectual nonsense but of course some people just want anything to absolve people from responsibility so they blame society for individuals acting out.



    You do harm to another person and it's your fault and no-one else is to blame.

    Maybe my post is not clear, or maybe people are just seeing what they want to see, I don’t know, I never said I, or we, are responsible for people’s actions.

    What we are responsible for is “change”, and to acknowledge if a function of society is not working.


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  • Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    That group having been looking to attack the police for a long time, even chanting to kill police in lots of their protests. They have turned out to be a dangerous group of left wing fascists.
    They will probably blame the victim for this shooting.

    Mod: Finding it hard to see how this is on topic, and not dragging the thread off in an unnecessary direction.


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