More than 900 cars driven by unaccompanied learner drivers seized

J_R

Hi

From:- https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/more-than-900-cars-driven-by-unaccompanied-learner-drivers-seized-1.4273365

Colm Keena
More than 900 cars that were being driven by unaccompanied learner drivers were seized in the first four months of this year, the latest figures from An Garda Síochána show.

There are approximately 250,000 learner permit holders in the State, including almost 5,000 who have had a learner permit for more than 20 years.

It is possible for learner permit holders to have their permit repeatedly renewed, even if they repeatedly fail to turn up for their booked driving test.

The Garda figures, which were given to the road safety and victim support group Parc show a wide variation in the number of cars being seized in different parts of the State in the first four months of the year.

The Dublin region accounted for 403 of the 923 seized cars. Cork city accounted for 44, and Co Louth accounted for 30.

However, there were only three cars seized in Sligo/Leitrim during the period, and counties Clare and Mayo only accounted for five each.

Avoiding tests
“We have noticed a pattern of low numbers in some counties and it is not changing,” said Parc’s chair, Susan Gray, whose husband Stephen was killed in a road traffic collision in 2004 involving an unaccompanied learner driver. “Maybe there are no unaccompanied drivers in those counties. I don’t know.”

The group is critical of the way learner drivers can repeatedly avoid sitting driving tests, and yet continue to be issued with extensions of their permits.

“There are thousands of learners out there who have not sat a driving test,” Ms Gray said. “They don’t have to turn up for a test, ever.”

Parc wants to see the law changed so that a learner has to sit a test before he or she can have their permit renewed.

A new law introduced in 2018 made it an offence for a learner permit holder to drive unless they were accompanied by a fully licenced driver.

micar

Driving alone effectively uninsured and these drivers don't give a damn.

And don't use driving test centres being closed as an excuse.

spurious

I wish they would enforce all the laws.

Rodney Bathgate

And crushed, hopefully.

Gatling

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

And crushed, hopefully.

Most would have being given back to a person with a full license who in turns hands it back to the owner.


As long as provisional license holders can drive and aren't effected by the more recent learners permit restrictions then they shouldn't be stopping one driver and letting the other go who are on there 10+ provisional

punisher5112

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to get through to many.

They got their provisional and just motored on.

Funny thing is many are too nervous to do the test but many are actually quite a good driver and just need to be pushed to do so.....

A program set up to get those with them to actually do it as the system is it's failing.

Ones that are caught should be given the option to do the test with a small fine or if not slap them with a big big fine....

Rodney Bathgate

We need a fleet of mobile car crushers. Learner driver is caught driving unaccompanied for a second time, the car is crushed and the bill is sent to the unaccompanied driver. Along with the crushed car cube. And their learner permit is revoked and they start the process from scratch.

Grab All Association

Based on one careless learner driver. Meanwhile there was a burglary across the road a couple of weeks ago and AGS couldn’t respond because there was no vehicles. Let’s waste more money though seizing vehicles rather than tackle crime

Gatling

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

We need a fleet of mobile car crushers. Learner driver

But what about those on provisionals

They cannot be touched ,we now have a two tier system hit one with restrictions and the other can drive unaccompanied and no restrictions ,
So those on provisionals or given their licences due to backlogs face no actions even those who lose their licence in court just say oh I left my license at home ,off you go so keep on driving.

No point blaming learner permits for the worlds wrong on the roads

Rodney Bathgate

Gatling wrote: »

But what about those on provisionals

They cannot be touched ,we now have a two tier system hit one with restrictions and the other can drive unaccompanied and no restrictions ,
So those on provisionals or given their licences due to backlogs face no actions even those who lose their licence in court just say oh I left my license at home ,off you go so keep on driving.

No point blaming learner permits for the worlds wrong on the roads

Crush them (the cars) also.

Change the law if there is a loophole.

My understanding was that you could drive unaccompanied on second provisional only. Not on first, third or any subsequent one?

If that is the case then there should be no one left on a second provisional licence at this point.

Rubberchikken

Based on other figures released at other times by ags I take everything they tell us with a large dose of cynicism.

Good if it's accurate and only right that these cars are taken. But more needs to be done

Gatling

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Crush them (the cars) also.

Change the law if there is a loophole.


If that is the case then there should be no one left on a second provisional licence at this point.

There is no loop hole laws cannot be retrospectively applied

There people on 20 + provisional ,we had one delusional driver went to court asking a judge to give them a full license as they couldn't pass a test and was considered completely incompetent and dangerous if I remember correctly

By the sounds of the original article on this thread outside of Dublin there is either no unaccompanied drivers or the gardai are turning a blind eye

micar

Grab All Association wrote: »

Let’s waste more money though seizing vehicles rather than tackle crime

It's is tackling crime........a unaccompanied leaner driver is committing a criminal offence.

Darc19

Grab All Association wrote: »

Based on one careless learner driver. Meanwhile there was a burglary across the road a couple of weeks ago and AGS couldn’t respond because there was no vehicles. Let’s waste more money though seizing vehicles rather than tackle crime

Would you allow a optician do heart surgery?

Roads policing members deal primarily with traffic issues and that's where their training is.

Also, how many deaths and serious life changing injuries are caused by house break-in?

newuser99999

Darc19 wrote: »

Also, how many deaths and serious life changing injuries are caused by house break-in?

A break-in may not be physically life changing but it is absolutely mentally life changing.

MissShihTzu

Good! Driving is a privilege, not a right.

marilynrr

micar wrote: »

Driving alone effectively uninsured and these drivers don't give a damn.

And don't use driving test centres being closed as an excuse.

It can be used as an excuse now because people are not allowed to sit their driving tests!! Some people will have no choice but to drive unaccompanied.

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

We need a fleet of mobile car crushers. Learner driver is caught driving unaccompanied for a second time, the car is crushed and the bill is sent to the unaccompanied driver. Along with the crushed car cube. And their learner permit is revoked and they start the process from scratch.

As long as they do the same to people who are caught speeding or using their phones and so on then that's fair!

Gatling wrote: »

But what about those on provisionals

They cannot be touched ,we now have a two tier system hit one with restrictions and the other can drive unaccompanied and no restrictions

Are there people still driving around on provisionals?

punisher5112

marilynrr wrote: »

It can be used as an excuse now because people are not allowed to sit their driving tests!! Some people will have no choice but to drive unaccompanied.



As long as they do the same to people who are caught speeding or using their phones and so on then that's fair!



Are there people still driving around on provisionals?

Everyone has a choice, many leave it and just drive on.

Gatling

marilynrr wrote: »

Are there people still driving around on provisionals?

In the thousands yes

Aska

punisher5112 wrote: »

Everyone has a choice, many leave it and just drive on.

I choose to pay my tax and insurance but that's me and many others like me.

This whole thread is another reason to state that even if YOU T-bone a car and are completely wrong (providing you have no drink taken etc.) NEVER admit it was your fault on the roadside because the the person you hit may have no insurance or licence hence they should not have been there at that time. All that is out the window if you say it was your fault or sorry.

Just look at the Garda twitter thread for the amount of drivers out there with no insurance or licence

Posy

Gatling wrote: »

But what about those on provisionals

They cannot be touched ,we now have a two tier system hit one with restrictions and the other can drive unaccompanied and no restrictions ,
So those on provisionals or given their licences due to backlogs face no actions even those who lose their licence in court just say oh I left my license at home ,off you go so keep on driving.

No point blaming learner permits for the worlds wrong on the roads

It's 13 years since provisional licences were done away with, so there can't be anybody still driving around on one, as they were only valid for a maximum of 2 years.

The rule that you could drive unaccompanied on a second provisional was changed back in 2008, so that is long gone also.

Gatling

Posy wrote: »

It's 13 years since provisional licences were done away with, so there can't be anybody still driving around on one, as they were only valid for a maximum of 2 years.

From the article in the Op

There are approximately 250,000 learner permit holders in the State, including almost 5,000 who have had a learner permit for more than 20 years

There were 4,898 learner permit holders who had a learner permit for more than 20 years.


Can't possibly be ohh wait

marilynrr

punisher5112 wrote: »

Everyone has a choice, many leave it and just drive on.

Peoples choices have been taken away from them!!!

They can't have accompanying drivers with them who don't live with them.

They also can't get a lift anywhere from other people who don't live with them.
These are the current restrictions and have been in place since March!!!

Even when those restrictions are lifted some people won't be able to use their usual accompanying driver if they are vulnerable!

Before people had more of a choice. Now they don't.

Seth Brundle

marilynrr wrote: »

Peoples choices have been taken away from them!!!

They can't have accompanying drivers with them who don't live with them.

They also can't get a lift anywhere from other people who don't live with them.
These are the current restrictions and have been in place since March!!!

Even when those restrictions are lifted some people won't be able to use their usual accompanying driver if they are vulnerable!

Before people had more of a choice. Now they don't.

...and what? We should go back to the days of letting untested drivers drive around unaccompanied?

greyday

Seth Brundle wrote: »

...and what? We should go back to the days of letting untested drivers drive around unaccompanied?

A way must be found to help young people stay within the law, at present many young people have no way of getting to their workplace because of the current restrictions.
For the moment I would allow people who have their licences over a year and were due to take their test between April 20 and whenever the restrictions are lifted to drive to and from work on their own without fear of having the Gardai take their cars from them.

Gatling

Seth Brundle wrote: »

...and what? We should go back to the days of letting untested drivers drive around unaccompanied?

How else did everyone on full licenses do it .


Certainly not driving to and from work with mammy sitting in the car .

ladystardust

Gatling wrote: »

How else did everyone on full licenses do it .


Certainly not driving to and from work with mammy sitting in the car .

I learned to drive by spending an absolute fortune on driving instructors because I didnt have a qualitied driver available to me for most of the time. Until I got my licence, I walked places, cycled, took public transportation, and got lifts. I know public transport and lifts are out for the most part, and it sucks. But really before covid there was no excuse.to drive unaccompanied. It was a pain, but that's life.

Seth Brundle

Gatling wrote: »

How else did everyone on full licenses do it .


Certainly not driving to and from work with mammy sitting in the car .

I'm well aware of how it was done in the past.
I'm also aware that in the past, our annual list of fatalities was up as high as 628 despite far fewer cars on the roads and lower speeds.
We've come a long way to get the number of fatalities down to where it is. Given the current situation where some people have died, others have lost their jobs, it's up to each person to find a way to get back to normal (in a way that is safe for all). Hoewver, I don't think giving learners a green card to drive unaccompanies is either prudent or wise.

Dravokivich

marilynrr wrote: »

Peoples choices have been taken away from them!!!

A choice isn't taken away. A choice is made to drive unaccompanied as a learner.

I think seizing the vehicle is the wrong way of going about it. The conditions of holding a Learner Permit are not difficult to adhere to. If you can't adhere to them, it should result in forfeiture of the learner permit. And not being able to engage in the process again for a period of time.

Would you make that choice?

Gatling wrote: »

How else did everyone on full licenses do it .


Certainly not driving to and from work with mammy sitting in the car .

If we continue to do as has been done before, we'll never improve.

I'm 35, when I was a learner a few years ago, I wasn't doing it unaccompanied. And that was before the Clancy law came in.

punisher5112

marilynrr wrote: »

Peoples choices have been taken away from them!!!

They can't have accompanying drivers with them who don't live with them.

They also can't get a lift anywhere from other people who don't live with them.
These are the current restrictions and have been in place since March!!!

Even when those restrictions are lifted some people won't be able to use their usual accompanying driver if they are vulnerable!

Before people had more of a choice. Now they don't.

Yes they can, you can have up to 3 in one now

punisher5112

I went bought a car, insured it, done my test and passed and I didn't drive on a public road till the test.
I had nobody to accompany me either so it can be easily done.
My dad drove the car to the test centre, I put the L plates on came back told I passed and away I drove straight to the tax office and put in for my licence.
I took one lesson and I was told not to bother with anymore and go for it.

I'll have to say I never thought they would turn down business but I have no problems telling others how good they were at churctown school of motoring....

Insurance was €3,250.83 for a poxy 1litre Micra....

Seth Brundle

punisher5112 wrote: »

Insurance was €3,250.83 for a poxy 1litre Micra....

Just to be clear, the insurance cost was for a (presumably) young, newly licenced male with limited driving experience in "a poxy 1litre Micra" in a small market within a claims culture society.

seamus

Gatling wrote: »

Most would have being given back to a person with a full license who in turns hands it back to the owner.

And this would be the problem. Too many parents thinking, "Ah sure I drove on me own on a provisional for ten years and it did me no harm. Go on ahead there love and try not to get caught".

Reaslitically they should be invoking the full force of the clancy amendment. Give everyone one chance. I you're caught a second time, car is taken and crushed.

If the car belongs to a parent, the parent can either accept the prosecution for allowing their child to take the car, or the child can be prosecuted for unlawful taking of a vehicle.

Isambard

Grab All Association wrote: »

Based on one careless learner driver. Meanwhile there was a burglary across the road a couple of weeks ago and AGS couldn’t respond because there was no vehicles. Let’s waste more money though seizing vehicles rather than tackle crime

they could just nip out and seize one, calling to the crime scene on the way to the pound.....

Posy

Gatling wrote: »

From the article in the Op

There are approximately 250,000 learner permit holders in the State, including almost 5,000 who have had a learner permit for more than 20 years

There were 4,898 learner permit holders who had a learner permit for more than 20 years.

Yes, exactly, so they have learner permits now, not provisional licences.
They can't drive unaccompanied on any learner permit, not like years ago when you could drive alone on a second provisional. So there are no loopholes anymore- any permit holder driving by themselves is breaking the law.

It's mad that people so many have had permits that long. More than 20 years!? You should have to show evidence that you've sat a test at least once you reach a certain number.
If you're driving around all the time anyway, why not just do the test!? :eek:

Gatling

Posy wrote: »

Yes, exactly, so they have learner permits now, not provisional licences.

No nearly 5000 are on provisionals not learners permits they haven't swapped them nor can they be made swap them as long as they choose to not take a test and get a full license they stay on provisionals .

It's really simple

Posy

Since they done away with provisional licences years ago, do you mean they are just driving with expired provisionals?

I'm confused.

Gatling

Posy wrote: »

Since they done away with provisional licences years ago, do you mean they are just driving with expired provisionals

After a certain date you couldn't apply for a 1st provisional license so you applied for a learners permit with the Learner permit restrictions .

But if you already had a provisional license you can keep renewing it which 5000 drivers have been doing and will keep doing for the forceable future.

Posy

When I renewed my provisional licence, it was replaced with a learner permit. I wasn't given a choice!
But you can just renew the permit every year without ever taking a test anyway.

I never heard of anyone still being allowed to retain a provisional, thought they were long gone.

Gatling

Posy wrote: »

I never heard of anyone still being allowed to retain a provisional, thought they were long gone.

Think about it the learner permit came in in 07 how could someone then be on their 20th permit in 14 years ,
Considering the first learners permit lasts 2years and one for the 3rd onwards .
Even going by ten permits you the time line doesn't add up

c.p.w.g.w

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Just to be clear, the insurance cost was for a (presumably) young, newly licenced male with limited driving experience in "a poxy 1litre Micra" in a small market within a claims culture society.

I got quoted over 5 grand for a Micra at 31

Gatling

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I got quoted over 5 grand for a Micra at 31

1.2 Polo (1493) AA,

but I'm decade older

shinikins

Gatling wrote: »

Think about it the learner permit came in in 07 how could someone then be on their 20th permit in 14 years ,
Considering the first learners permit lasts 2years and one for the 3rd onwards .
Even going by ten permits you the time line doesn't add up

Learner permits are the only "provisional" licence issued nowadays. The provisional licencing system was done away with long ago. Anyone who held an expired provisional licence received a learner permit on renewal. As with the provisional system, the first two permits were of a two year duration, and any subsequent permits were either of one or two years duration depending on whether a test was booked, or sat and failed. There is also a 5 year entitlement to renew the permit after it expires, so it is entirely conceivable that an individual can hold a learner permit for sometimes decades without sitting a test. Some individuals are on their 18th or 19th renewal-rare, but they are out there.

Btw, no loophole exists that allows a LP holder to drive unaccompanied. That's a total myth. All LP holders must, by law, be accompanied at all times by a full licence holder in order to drive, and are not insured otherwise.

MascotDec85

shinikins wrote: »

Learner permits are the only "provisional" licence issued nowadays. The provisional licencing system was done away with long ago. Anyone who held an expired provisional licence received a learner permit on renewal. As with the provisional system, the first two permits were of a two year duration, and any subsequent permits were either of one or two years duration depending on whether a test was booked, or sat and failed. There is also a 5 year entitlement to renew the permit after it expires, so it is entirely conceivable that an individual can hold a learner permit for sometimes decades without sitting a test. Some individuals are on their 18th or 19th renewal-rare, but they are out there.

Btw, no loophole exists that allows a LP holder to drive unaccompanied. That's a total myth. All LP holders must, by law, be accompanied at all times by a full licence holder in order to drive, and are not insured otherwise.

It’s not strictly true to say they aren’t insured. Some policies specifically state that in the event of driving alone they are not covered whilst other policies will continue to provide cover.

Isambard

that's an untested interpretation. Whether or not you can drive third party regardless might be immaterial in the case of a claim.