Autistic man gunned down in Jerusalem

batman75

Just read in the Times of Israel about a Palestinian man who is mildly autistic who was shot 7 times in Jerusalem. Apparently police thought he was armed and ignored requests to halt. He fled a building where he was tracked down and gunned down. Apparently he didn't understand the requests and was en route to a centre for adults with learning disabilities

This is not an anti Israel post. It's simply looking at an awful tragedy where a young man's life was taken without due cause. I love Israel and have holidayed there on numerous occasions. But this is a truly disturbing case. I'm not optimistic that anyone will be held accountable for their actions. Netanyahu has expressed remorse etc but shouldn't have happened.

donvito99

What business has an Irish person reading the times of Israel?

c.p.w.g.w

donvito99 wrote: »

What business has an Irish person reading the times of Israel?

Could say the same for New York Times, Washington Post etc

donvito99

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Could say the same for New York Times, Washington Post etc

Exactly. An Irish forum full of Irish people with obsessed with the politics and internal affairs of other countries.

Quantum Erasure

this is a local forum, for local issues

antgal23

Let me get this right

Unarmed man shot seven times?

Was he holding a weapon of any kind?

batman75

antgal23 wrote: »

Let me get this right

Unarmed man shot seven times?

Was he holding a weapon of any kind?

Nope they thought his mobile phone was a weapon. It's ludicrous and indefensible.

antgal23

batman75 wrote: »

Nope they thought his mobile phone was a weapon. It's ludicrous and indefensible.

Guy is walking down the street in Jerusalem, on his phone to his Ma, copper shouts

" Put down your phone and stop"

Guy legs it with phone in hand

Cop or cops shoot him 7 times

You mean like this?

Timberrrrrrrr

donvito99 wrote: »

Exactly. An Irish forum full of Irish people with obsessed with the politics and internal affairs of other countries.

So Irish people should only care about Irish issues? That's a very insular attitude to have, do you turn off the news everytime they mention another country?

anplaya27

batman75 wrote: »

Just read in the Times of Israel about a Palestinian man who is mildly autistic who was shot 7 times in Jerusalem. Apparently police thought he was armed and ignored requests to halt. He fled a building where he was tracked down and gunned down. Apparently he didn't understand the requests and was en route to a centre for adults with learning disabilities

This is not an anti Israel post. It's simply looking at an awful tragedy where a young man's life was taken without due cause. I love Israel and have holidayed there on numerous occasions. But this is a truly disturbing case. I'm not optimistic that anyone will be held accountable for their actions. Netanyahu has expressed remorse etc but shouldn't have happened.

Happened to a Deaf man during the troubles in 1971. Eamon McDavitt. Was walkng home and was shot dead by the British Army. Said he was waving a gun when he was trying to sign to them he was Deaf and couldn't understand their requests . They then smeared his name. The truth came out it was lies about a gun to justify his murder in an enquiry more than 30 years later. Culprits were given immunity.

One eyed Jack

batman75 wrote: »

This is not an anti Israel post. It's simply looking at an awful tragedy where a young man's life was taken without due cause. I love Israel and have holidayed there on numerous occasions. But this is a truly disturbing case. I'm not optimistic that anyone will be held accountable for their actions. Netanyahu has expressed remorse etc but shouldn't have happened.

It seems like an unfortunate case of misunderstandings all round really -


Autistic Palestinian shot by Israeli police buried amid revenge call


But rather like the George Floyd case, it appears some people are indeed keen to turn an unfortunate misunderstanding into a political football to support their own cause -


The secretary general of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), Saab Erekat, said it was "crime that will be met with impunity unless the world stops treating Israel as a state above the law".

He drew parallels with the killing of George Floyd in the US, which has sparked widespread protests.

Palestinians and Israelis protested against the killing of Mr Halaq in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Jaffa on Saturday and Sunday. Some carried posters saying "Justice for Iyad" and "Palestinian lives matter".


It could never be as simple as someone made an awful mistake which will haunt them for the rest of their days, could it?

Varik

No clue what happened but it's not some random street, it was one of the entrances to the old city which usually has a heavy police presence at the gate from the look of things.

****... I'm anticipating marches along O'Connell Street because of this overreach by police.....

Oh wait... Is he not the colour we are told to care about this month?

Well then the normal people will just be dismayed that another person needlessly lost their lives

storker

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

this is a local forum, for local issues

Not according to the charter: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057989814

mikeym

I will never understand how the American government give billions of Dollars every year to Israel.

Dr. Bre

mikeym wrote: »

I will never understand how the American government give billions of Dollars every year to Israel.

It’s really easy to understand . A lot of Jews live in the USA and have a big influence .

J_E

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

this is a local forum, for local issues

You're right! I

"Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol"
"2020 US Presidential Election"
"Madeline Mccann"

oh.

Dr. Bre wrote: »

It’s really easy to understand . A lot of Jews live in the USA and have a big influence .

That's not it.... at all....

s1ippy

Completely tragic, not in the least bit surprising. I think after this weekend I'm pretty much entirely desensitised to every awful thing I could possibly hear.

Short of something happening to a close family member none of the stuff online can chip away at my outlook anymore. The human race is being totally dominated by the deplorable actions of the most hateful minority, who execute people without a thought and have no conscience. The internet serves as little more than a memorial of their evil deeds. If only there were more safety in life offline, but that's where all the actual sh!te is happening.

Night everyone!

Tell me how

coinop wrote: »

Ok I'm going to be honest - I don't really care. One random killing cherry picked from the other side of the world so OP could push his personal agenda. Meanwhile a black teenager almost murdered a young Irish lad, one of our own, in Cork last night and we're not allowed to talk about it.

Welcome to Boards.ie everyone.

Is there a reason why you are incapable of understanding this?

The two threads started on the Irish incident were used by people screaming racism with no evidence or context that that was the case.

The Mod initially said that the incident merited discussion, but some posters were incapable in doing so without stating categorically that it was a racist attack.

Tokyo

donvito99 wrote: »

What business has an Irish person reading the times of Israel?

Mod: quit it, or don't post in the thread.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

.....

Oh wait... Is he not the colour we are told to care about this month?

s

"Why wont the people march for the things I want?"

"Did you start a movement and ask them too?"

" no, I just moaned on boards that no one did it for me "

Tokyo

Tell me how wrote: »

The Mod initially said that the incident merited discussion, but some posters were incapable in doing so without stating categorically that it was a racist attack.

That part is definitely true, even moreso considering the torrent of abuse I received via PM from both posters. But there's also a bigger issue to consider. The incident in question will likely be before the courts shortly. Boards has a long standing policy of not discussing cases currently going before the courts as discussing cases sub judice may constitute interference with due process.

Admin: All posters, please don't bring up said situation again for conversation. I really shouldn't have to ask this multiple times.

antgal23

Why is there not world wide outrage at the murder of a special needs autism guy who was shot for holding a phone?

Floyd George's murder rightly was condemned across the world, why don't we protest for the Palestinian?

Edgware

donvito99 wrote: »

What business has an Irish person reading the times of Israel?

He just saw a short few lines on this incident and goggled the rest. Trying to look concerned and internationalist. Next he will say he has a daily subscription to the Botswana Tribune.

batman75

antgal23 wrote: »

Why is there not world wide outrage at the murder of a special needs autism guy who was shot for holding a phone?

Floyd George's murder rightly was condemned across the world, why don't we protest for the Palestinian?

I think part of it is the lack of press coverage. Plus the murder of Floyd George was captured on film a film which is sickening, disturbing and powerful.

As I said in my op I love Israel but some actions like this are reprehensible and indefensible.

Someone asked why America supports Israel.

Jews are a very powerful lobby in America.
America would view Israel as the only true democracy in the Middle East.
Israel would be the most westernised country in the Middle East.

Edgware

antgal23 wrote: »

Why is there not world wide outrage at the murder of a special needs autism guy who was shot for holding a phone?

Floyd George's murder rightly was condemned across the world, why don't we protest for the Palestinian?

Sorry but the Palestinians have dropped priority on the list of condemnation. Theyre down below the Hong Kong students, Muslims in China, travellers in Ireland.
In the near future the "concerns" of Sorcha and Oisin over being graded as D students by their teachers will take precededence with Joe and the Irish Times. Floyd and the rest will be a distant memory and the " concerned youth" will be enquiring about their J1 visas for 2021. Has anyone heard from Greta lately? No one interested in the views of a white priveleged European anymore?

paw patrol

mikeym wrote: »

I will never understand how the American government give billions of Dollars every year to Israel.

You must under estimate the influence of the Zionist lobby in the US.
You could comment further on the scale of it but people would get upset

antgal23 wrote: »

Why is there not world wide outrage at the murder of a special needs autism guy who was shot for holding a phone?

Floyd George's murder rightly was condemned across the world, why don't we protest for the Palestinian?

the sickening thing is the Israeli's had a large BLM protest yet not a peep over this.

Edgware

paw patrol wrote: »

You must under estimate the influence of the Zionist lobby in the US.
You could comment further on the scale of it but people would get upset



the sickening thing is the Israeli's had a large BLM protest yet not a peep over this.

Ya thats really sickening. I couldnt finish my breakfast.

Lemsiper

mikeym wrote: »

I will never understand how the American government give billions of Dollars every year to Israel.

Bank transfer I'd imagine.

paw patrol

Edgware wrote: »

Ya thats really sickening. I couldnt finish my breakfast.

sorry to hear that.

biko

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

this is a local forum, for local issues

Tell me how

Edgware wrote: »

Sorry but the Palestinians have dropped priority on the list of condemnation. Theyre down below the Hong Kong students, Muslims in China, travellers in Ireland.
In the near future the "concerns" of Sorcha and Oisin over being graded as D students by their teachers will take precededence with Joe and the Irish Times. Floyd and the rest will be a distant memory and the " concerned youth" will be enquiring about their J1 visas for 2021. Has anyone heard from Greta lately? No one interested in the views of a white priveleged European anymore?

Could say the same about those espousing righteousness on these pages as to why All Lives Matter.
They don't give a sh*t about white lives who struggle to buy homes, or who are dealing with homelessness, or are long term unemployed, or have special needs or about the lives of those, now in future, who will be affected by environmental issues.

But when people start standing up for Black people all of a sudden they come out of the woodwork with faux concern.

Greta is still doing her strike, (so much for those who said she'd lose interest when the public gaze was off her) and the climate issue is still there to be dealt with. That'll be something for you and de lads to get worked up about once again.

KiKi III

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It seems like an unfortunate case of misunderstandings all round really -


Autistic Palestinian shot by Israeli police buried amid revenge call


But rather like the George Floyd case, it appears some people are indeed keen to turn an unfortunate misunderstanding into a political football to support their own cause -


The secretary general of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), Saab Erekat, said it was "crime that will be met with impunity unless the world stops treating Israel as a state above the law".

He drew parallels with the killing of George Floyd in the US, which has sparked widespread protests.

Palestinians and Israelis protested against the killing of Mr Halaq in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Jaffa on Saturday and Sunday. Some carried posters saying "Justice for Iyad" and "Palestinian lives matter".


It could never be as simple as someone made an awful mistake which will haunt them for the rest of their days, could it?

Well, in most cases the reaction will depend on whether they are held accountable for the mistake.

Should you be able to say “I’m sorry, I made a terrible mistake” and that’s considered good enough for taking someone’s life?

James Brown

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

this is a local forum, for local issues

So we don't trade with outsiders. Don't have financial dealing/dependence on outsiders and our economy and politics is never effected by the policies and actions of outsiders?



On the topic: Police services around the world need proper training on dealing with people with mental and physical health issues. There have been numerous killings around the world because of poor training. Usually minorities too,

Tokyo

Edgware wrote: »

He just saw a short few lines on this incident and goggled the rest. Trying to look concerned and internationalist. Next he will say he has a daily subscription to the Botswana Tribune.

Mod: Quit it with the childish responses.

Flickerfusion

donvito99 wrote: »

What business has an Irish person reading the times of Israel?

What business has a random poster questioning the right of Irish people to read international newspapers, or comment on or discuss international politics?

Are we supposed to be some kind of inward looking, narrow minded simpletons, living in a bubble and never engaging with the world?!

This is an active current affairs forum and Ireland has historically always taken a very strong interest in what’s going on elsewhere.

Odhinn

batman75 wrote: »

Just read in the Times of Israel about a Palestinian man who is mildly autistic who was shot 7 times in Jerusalem. Apparently police thought he was armed and ignored requests to halt. He fled a building where he was tracked down and gunned down. Apparently he didn't understand the requests and was en route to a centre for adults with learning disabilities

.......................

This needs a bit of clarity, if ye don't mind - They shot at him and injured him. He ran inside a garage and collapsed on the floor. They found him, and despite his teacher begging them not to for a period of a few minutes, they put two or three rounds in him to finish him off.

Eyad Hallaq was shot to death in a roofless garbage room. According to the testimony of his caregiver, who was by his side and tried to protect him, he was executed.


For long minutes she stood next to him and pleaded for his life, trying to explain to the police officers, in Hebrew and in Arabic, that he suffered from a disability. They shot him three times from close range with a rifle, directly into the center of his body, as he lay on his back, wounded and terrified, on the floor of the room.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-he-s-disabled-the-aide-yelled-i-m-with-her-eyad-cried-the-cop-still-shot-him-1.8896746

Flickerfusion

Horrible incident and very strong echos of the kind of policing issues in the US or in the days of paramilitary policing here before the foundation of the state.

When you’ve paramilitary policy with absolute power and no real checks on it and then you’ve an ethnically divided society, killings like these seem to become a feature of behaviour.

The only solution to this is normalisation of society and demilitarisation, but how that’s going to happen I don’t know as there seem to be no political will (or at least none with influence) to step back from it. It’s a desperately sad mess.

One eyed Jack

KiKi III wrote: »

Well, in most cases the reaction will depend on whether they are held accountable for the mistake.

Should you be able to say “I’m sorry, I made a terrible mistake” and that’s considered good enough for taking someone’s life?

I wouldn’t see it as “good enough for taking someone’s life” though. I’d see it as a tragic accident. I wouldn’t assume any officer starts their day intending to kill innocent people.

KiKi III

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wouldn’t see it as “good enough for taking someone’s life” though. I’d see it as a tragic accident. I wouldn’t assume any officer starts their day intending to kill innocent people.

Right, but whether that officer intended to go to work and kill a kid, he did.

Impact trumps intention.

If I knocked you over in my car and left you paralyzed, would it matter to you that I didn’t set out that day to do that to you?

When you do something awful, you should face consequences.

That officer should have been sacked immediately and possibly faced charges. His family should have been given some compensation.

It’s like Obama and Spider-Man say, with great power comes great responsibility.

One eyed Jack

KiKi III wrote: »

Right, but whether that officer intended to go to work and kill a kid, he did.

Impact trumps intention.

If I knocked you over in my car and left you paralyzed, would it matter to you that I didn’t set out that day to do that to you?

When you do something awful, you should face consequences.

That officer should have been sacked immediately and possibly faced charges. His family should have been given some compensation.

It’s like Obama and Spider-Man say, with great power comes great responsibility.

Not in law it doesn’t. That’s one of the reasons why people are presumed innocent until proven guilty of any wrongdoing in a Court of Law. It’s why everyone has the right to due process and as for quoting either Obama or Spider-Man, I’d sooner go with William Blackstone, whose ratio is one of the fundamental principles of Common Law -


It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.


Blackstone’s Ratio


No civilised society abandons justice in order to exact revenge.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wouldn’t see it as “good enough for taking someone’s life” though. I’d see it as a tragic accident. I wouldn’t assume any officer starts their day intending to kill innocent people.

"accident" is shooting the guy in the leg. Hunting him down and finishing him off with his teacher pleading for his life was no "accident".

antgal23

Odhinn wrote: »

"accident" is shooting the guy in the leg. Hunting him down and finishing him off with his teacher pleading for his life was no "accident".

He was executed at point blank in the back

It must have been bad - Netanyahu even condemned it in public

US presidents are afraid of Mossad and Israel so don't expect any change in that relationship soon

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

"accident" is shooting the guy in the leg. Hunting him down and finishing him off with his teacher pleading for his life was no "accident".

You’ll have to forgive me that I’d be reluctant to consider the Israeli equivalent of the Guardian newspaper an unbiased and credible source.

The principle of innocent until proven guilty of any wrongdoing still stands. To pre-empt any replies along the lines of “it’s a pity the officer didn’t think of that”, well yes, it is. That’s every reason why we shouldn’t do the same thing.

Odhinn

antgal23 wrote: »

He was executed at point blank in the back

It must have been bad - Netanyahu even condemned it in public

It would be rare for an incident like this to have serious consequences for those responsible. Far worse has gone on, unfortunately.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’ll have to forgive me that I’d be reluctant to consider the Israeli equivalent of the Guardian newspaper an unbiased and credible source.

..............

Handy, that. Try these,. You might also consider the multiple other times the Israeli state has killed Palestinians with abandon.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52956656


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iyad-halak-israel-police-killing-palestinian-man-with-autism-draws-george-floyd-comparisons/


https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-04/killing-of-palestinian-man-with-autism-draws-floyd-parallel

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

Handy, that. Try these,. You might also consider the multiple other times the Israeli state has killed Palestinians with abandon.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52956656


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iyad-halak-israel-police-killing-palestinian-man-with-autism-draws-george-floyd-comparisons/


https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-04/killing-of-palestinian-man-with-autism-draws-floyd-parallel

Well no, it’s not handy, it’s just a fact, and surely you can understand that if I wouldn’t assume guilt on the part of one officer, providing examples of circumstances where other officers have killed is not evidence that this particular officer in this particular case is guilty of any wrongdoing?

That’s called guilt by association. Not something I would encourage anyone to partake in as it fosters a mob mentality which leads to mob justice. That’s not justice, it’s simply retaliation. What possible good can ever come of that?

KiKi III

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Not in law it doesn’t. That’s one of the reasons why people are presumed innocent until proven guilty of any wrongdoing in a Court of Law. It’s why everyone has the right to due process and as for quoting either Obama or Spider-Man, I’d sooner go with William Blackstone, whose ratio is one of the fundamental principles of Common Law -


It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.


Blackstone’s Ratio


No civilised society abandons justice in order to exact revenge.

What are you on about?

There’s no question over whether the officer shot the kid. He’s entitled to due process and the family are entitled to accountability.

If he didn’t intend to kill the kid (which hasn’t been proven) that would be the difference between murder and manslaughter but there’s no circumstance where the only consequence this guy has to face is feeling bad about it.

One eyed Jack

KiKi III wrote: »

What are you on about?

There’s no question over whether the officer shot the kid. He’s entitled to due process and the family are entitled to accountability.

If he didn’t intend to kill the kid (which hasn’t been proven) that would be the difference between murder and manslaughter but there’s no circumstance where the only consequence this guy has to face is feeling bad about it.

This is why the presumption of innocence exists, because it’s not up to the officer to prove anything. It’s up to the prosecution to make their case depending upon whether the officer is charged with committing an offence in the first place. If it is determined that he has no case to answer for, then the only consequence should be that he feels remorse for his actions. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

I have no doubt the officer will be held accountable for his actions, by his superior officers, not by the public who aren’t in any position to make that determination as to the consequences the officer should face for any action taken in the course of his duties.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is why the presumption of innocence exists, because it’s not up to the officer to prove anything. It’s up to the prosecution to make their case depending upon whether the officer is charged with committing an offence in the first place. If it is determined that he has no case to answer for, then the only consequence should be that he feels remorse for his actions. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

I have no doubt the officer will be held accountable for his actions, by his superior officers, not by the public who aren’t in any position to make that determination as to the consequences the officer should face for any action taken in the course of his duties.

Do ye now......
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

That’s called guilt by association

Whathappens where the party - an occupying force - in question has records of brutality towards the palestinians going back decades, many of those acts much worse than this.

Odhinn

Some of the stats here give a notion as to how much we might hope to see justice served



https://www.yesh-din.org/en/tag/idf-soldiers/