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New Watch Club
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04-06-2020 12:10pm#1
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Watch buyer hat on:
I'm one of those who likes to obsess about tiny details and pick something in the end that really speaks to me (I think Fitzgeme has a graph for the various stages of watch collectors
) - last watch I bought was a Hamtun H2 since the meteorite looked neat and hadn't tried a Sellita movement before, before that it was a Soviet stopwatch and their version of the mikrograph (1/100th second mechanical stopwatch). Some people would find that stopwatch fascinating, many would find it useless - so it seems to me that with the venture you're proposing you, by necessity, can't offer something "edgy" since you need to try and keep everyone happy. Does that mean you'll have to offer safer/generic appeal watches? You can see how that wouldn't necessarily appeal to the "serious" watch collector who likes unique/different pieces.
Watch brand hat on:
I'm not sure you'll be able to offer €400 watches for €150 - you may need to have a deeper look at the figures and what discounts you can get for bulk buying (and you'll be looking at buying...10? 50 pieces? That's still not really much of a bulk buy - unless you're talking about buying 500-1000 pieces? But see the problem of needing to go with a safe option when buying for 1000 people.
I hope no-one will ask me to reveal my costs in public - but put it this way, without needing to charge VAT, without setting up a company, without hiring an accountant, videographer, photographer, 0 advertising budget and paying myself nothing for around 2 years part-time work, €150 isn't close to the cost price of the Starlight (which helpfully has a Kickstarter standard price of €399) - where cost price = 0 profits but no loss. So now this means I could be getting screwed over by my partners in China on costs - or it could be that you can't really get a €400 "value" watch for €150 even with bulk discount purchasing. That might change if I had sold off 2000 Starlights - but you'd need to buy them all or something
Or another way to think of it - at €150 you want to make €20/30 margin? so - the watch can only be €125 - the seller needs profits to live so it's really a €75 watch you're looking at - at those prices can you still offer something that usually sells for €400 or has a true value of €400? 50 watches with a margin of €50 euro only brings in €2,500 of profit to a watch brand - if they need to live on that it's not much...so more realistically you're looking at €30-50 cost price watch - how much watch can you get for €50? (Actually a lot if you get a Vostok)
Hope this was helpful to you - like FitzG I also don't want to rain on anyone's idea - but perhaps some more research is needed into your target demographic and the business costs and where you see your margin coming in.0 -
Juniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »Each watch is only there to satisfy you need for a new thing rather than having any inherent worth,
Well, yes, that was the idea. I like to change my watch every few weeks. Well, I would if I could afford it that is.Juniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »Only value is the ability to fill slots in a 20 euro Amazon 20 slot watchbox.
I had done a bit of research on some other companies and thought the watches were good quality. Often getting a say 375 euro watch for 99, and such.Juniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »The alleged RRP trotted out is fantasy, like the invicta RRP of 800 euro but yours for 50 euro and all that nonsense.
I have to admit, I AM trying desperately to come up with HOW they make money, or at least at scale, so the idea is changing in my head to REALLY low membership cost for previously owned and half decent watches for loan, and after 3 months or whatever, you can just give it back, and if you like the watch, you can order a new one at a discount.Juniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »Sorry to piss on your chips, but I am a grumpy old fart.
Not at all. I appreciate the comments
Perhaps a variation of this watch club idea - you just share them, don't permanently own them?
The club can buy a few decent quality watches (new or second hand) with the initial joining fee from members, say a few hundred or even a few thousand each. These will be shared by the members in rotation and when all members have worn them for a few months, they are sold on again. With the monthly subscription (and the resale money), new watches are bought. So your monthly subscription only really has to cover depreciation (and some shipping costs)
EXACTLY was I was thinking today thank you.Juniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »You would either have to have deposits to the value of the watch, or insurance that would melt you mind with cost. And if you think about it 10 people give a grand so that 10k. Buy two watches ( and it wont be pateks or BNLR's at those figures), and now 8 people have nothing to wear for their grand...it just doesn't work. Would you pay a grand to rent a watch for a month? Also they would all get stolen or damaged, and some smart arse would switch them out with replicas.....Classic car clubs work quite well because the fees are astronomical, huge deposits are taken, insurance is in place.
There is also the whole thing of wearing a watch you dont own, its kinda cheesy.
Jasus we are not talking about heading towards THAT luxury. I understand that kind of club would take hundreds of thousands to set up and run. Thats way out of our league. For example. I read that Eleven James had to shut up shop because their capital was pulled after being turned down for 30 million investment.
Yeah I redid the business plan today to included a pre-ownded loaned watch with the option to buy new from a retailer at a discount. (obviously pending retailer involvement)micks_address wrote: »I wouldn't mind a watch rental service where I could try a watch for say a month to see if I like it. If I wanted it then buy it
Yep,, perfect.People here are serious / collectors and maybe that isn't your market. This is more in the casual interested punter.
Oh, yes, of course, thank you and understood.I think you're likley to get some interest in short term rentals of high quality watches, i'm think wedding weekends etc. This works with high end dress rentals and camera equipment rental.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, interesting. Ill steal that idea if you don't mind?To try and be positive, I might - might - be interetsed if you had high quality homage's
https://www.steinhartwatches.de/en/
But to be honest, I'm personally still more likely to take that year's subscription and buy one outright for myself.
I like that price point. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe different tier memberships is a good idea. And I suppose. It really is each to their own and I appreciate you could just buy a watch with the yearly membership, but if you are like me (Not a collector), just a watch fan who likes change, then buying one watch per year or more, to keep forever is less appealing that the thrill of 'whats next'. I would do the same with mobile phones if I could.Juniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »
300 -400 euro watches interest me greatly, but he is not offering 300 - 400 euro watches.
Nothing is off the table yetJuniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »These watch clubs tell you that there is a RRP of 400 euro on the "Teddy Boshanks - heritage" they shipped you, but the reality is that its a re branded 8 euro Alibabba watch that they sold 1000 of to the watchclub for 20 euro a pop..
Jesus, I would hope that's not the case?Watch buyer hat on:
I'm one of those who likes to obsess about tiny details and pick something in the end that really speaks to me (I think Fitzgeme has a graph for the various stages of watch collectors) - last watch I bought was a Hamtun H2 since the meteorite looked neat and hadn't tried a Sellita movement before, before that it was a Soviet stopwatch and their version of the mikrograph (1/100th second mechanical stopwatch). Some people would find that stopwatch fascinating, many would find it useless - so it seems to me that with the venture you're proposing you, by necessity, can't offer something "edgy" since you need to try and keep everyone happy. Does that mean you'll have to offer safer/generic appeal watches? You can see how that wouldn't necessarily appeal to the "serious" watch collector who likes unique/different pieces.
Watch brand hat on:
Hope this was helpful to you - like FitzG I also don't want to rain on anyone's idea - but perhaps some more research is needed into your target demographic and the business costs and where you see your margin coming in.
Massively Helpful, Thank you so much. And thank you everyone for the input so far. I greatly appreciate it.0 -
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Juniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »Garyskeepers....its obvious from your replies you are very new to this both the hobby and the business of it. Do not invest any of your money or time until you know what's what.
Guys will tell you all sort until it's time to spend their money and then suddenly all that interest evaporates.
There is a lot of naivety going on here.
Thank you,, I appreciate that. 0 -
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True, although the difference is, Eleven James were working with extreme luxury like Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Breitling etc for 500 quid per month.
We are talking 500 and 600 euro watches for 10-15 quid per month.. maybe I'm wrong 0 -
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Juniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »100% this. Gary the watches guys want cost a hell of a lot more than 500 euro. Anything at a very low level is often just purcahsed outright and sold on. Thats what people do. Buy a watch....wear it....sell it on. You are offering nothing new.
As Banie01 said you will have your entire stock nicked within a couple of months.
Stop trying to invent solutions for a market you dont understand. First understand the market. Watch youtube a lot to gague where the watch enthusiast market is.
Lets also run your figures
1000 members (things are going great) paying you 10 euro a month. So each month you get in 10k. You need to have 1000 watches for 500 euro (everyone will want a watch). So half a million in watches out there. You will recoup your half a mil investment in a mere 4 years. So not a penny made in 4 years but 500k locked up in a depreciating asset you would be lucky to have 150k left at the end of the 4 years. So you have made 500k and lost 350k so a gross profit of 150k in 4 years 37k before tax a year. Now factor in insurance, marketing, shrinkage, staff, consumables, service, repolishing, etc and I say you would be lucky to make a euro.
Your members will buy a watch the cheapest place they can, not with your retailer codes, cause if the retailer has to kick back to you in any meaningful way then its going to be more expensive than on jomashop and defo more than second hand. You are dealing with computer literate, considered customers here. Watches are generally marked up 50% on the high street, and any savvy customer can negotiate their own discount.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm, interesting.. Im gonna have to look at my figures. Taking into account that the higher end collector isn't my target market, people like ME are 0 -
garyskeepers wrote: »hmmmmmmmmmmmm, interesting.. Im gonna have to look at my figures. Taking into account that the higher end collector isn't my target market, people like ME are
Which is why I give lower tier watches as an example.
You say people like you are your target market?
Let's break that out a little bit.
People with little knowledge of watches(not knocking this by the way, I'm in this category), their quality or pedigree, looking to gain some nice wrist jewellery at not a huge outlay.
What other info would you add to that description?
Once the average punter finds MVMT, Wrist Gang, Daniel Wellington or similar and starts doing their own research into what those channels offer?
How long before they start cutting out the middleman and going direct via Ali or DHGate?
If you could expand on who you think your market is?
We may be able to offer better advice other than just the generalized above.
I would be very interested in seeing a high level breakout of your figures.
The reason watchgang is still trading is because it's practically an MLM, with huge efforts to get current members to recommend.
That's a business that relies on cheap stock, very high turnover, low margin and somehow convincing others to come on board.
How do you propose to do that?
Just out of curiosity, have you actually researched this other than spitballing an idea here and with some partners?
Have you looked into any of the issues that led to Eleven James collapsing?
Or into the reviews of watchgang and similar carried out by knowledgeable folk who aren't pat to play?0 -
garyskeepers wrote: »hmmmmmmmmmmmm, interesting.. Im gonna have to look at my figures. Taking into account that the higher end collector isn't my target market, people like ME are
Thats like starting a car club for ordinary cars, you dont see them. You only see car clubs for high end cars because nobody want to pay a subscription every month to have a chance to drive a ordinary car they could afford themselves anyway.
You keep on about the low end and high end collector. but the word your a missing out on here is "collector"...collectors collect. They dont rent, and at the low end renting makes even less sense.
Since you posted this question I have done a good bit of research into Watch Gang, and by god the absolute load of crap the members get sent is appalling. They do have the scale to offer "win a rolex" which I am sure draws a lot of people in. Load of reviews online. Have a look on the pictures of your watches thread on this forum and look at the watches that guys have and are proud to display, there is a wide range, but these days even your most basic Seiko dive watch would have a highstreet RRP of over 500 euro.0 -
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He's obviously oldskool - pocket watches all the way - none of these effeminate wrist watches
https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/earlywristwatches.phpThis all changed during the Great War (the First World War, WW1, of 1914 – 1918) when large numbers of men entered the armed forces and, in the trenches of the battlefields, they saw experienced and battle hardened officers wearing and using wristwatches. This changed the perception of wristwatches being effeminate, and many men wanted to own one themselves. As a result this early style of wristwatch with wire lugs became known as an "officer's watch", or more commonly a "trench watch".
But Wibbs would be the expert on all this I'm sure.0 -
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Will you listen to yourself Gary? That doesn't sound anything like a business plan. It sounds like wishful thinking.
#UnconstructiveMuchJuniper Orange Carpentry wrote: »
Joking aside, what are simi decent watches in your opinion?
For the average schmoe. between €500-1kGary. You ain’t listening. The below is the business model you described above. It is very generous with the gross profit.
Unless you and your “business partners” have a half million plus to sink in a depreciating asset of likely ****ter 500 euro watches that no one wants to “rent”.
10 or 20 a month to rent ? The cost of packaging, postage and insurance will eliminate that on each watch before other costs are even considered.
Well for starters, this is more about a business idea and starting something that might work, than making millions. We have always done some things we thought, "well, wouldn't it be cool if.........." and sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't.
if we bought ten watches for 1k each and lets remove the specifics (and yes, we are down 10k already, thats business for ya). Now lets just imagine that none of them were stolen, lets just................... actually. I wont waste my time writing out the rest of that paragraph
Its like this, the world is full of people who think great ideas are timewasting failures, which turn out to be succesful, and vice versa the world is full of people who think the rubbish they hold is the best thing since sliced bread.
But will opinions stop me from doing something I think might be a cool idea? Hell no.
Sure, none of you guys will drop to a 700 euro watch, thats cool. I appreciate that ,. but lets give it a go and see how it works out.
remember, the shame is not in the failure, its in the not trying.
Thanks for all the input guys. Appreciated0 -
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