Used Model X?

Gforcemurphy

I posted a short while back mentioning that I was following the development of the Mustang Mach E with great interest, but that with a third kid on the way I might have to reconsider.

So in that context another boardsie recommended a used Model X to me as a great family car, if within budget. Since then I’ve diverted all my ‘fantasy focus’ on this as the answer to all my future problems. I’d say it would be a stretch alright but not impossible, cost-wise. However I will have to keep a keen eye between now and end of year for new offerings. Am I right in assuming that best ‘value’ is invariably going to be UK? I hardly see any this side of the water. Do you reckon we’ll see much of a price drop for the X over the next six months? Y won’t be out for a while, but then again, would there be much cannibalisation, anyway?

Also, I’ve seen plenty of talk about the importance of having the residue of any Tesla warranty when buying used, mainly in discussions about the Model S. However I’ve seen elsewhere that these only apply if buying directly from Tesla. Is this your understanding / experience?

Anything else I should be making sure, when looking? Or any tips in general? My ideal would be a 6-seater (although 7 would do also), not bothered with performance models. Autopilot would be cool but not a deal-breaker.

AmberGold

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

I posted a short while back mentioning that I was following the development of the Mustang Mach E with great interest, but that with a third kid on the way I might have to reconsider.

So in that context another boardsie recommended a used Model X to me as a great family car, if within budget. Since then I’ve diverted all my ‘fantasy focus’ on this as the answer to all my future problems. I’d say it would be a stretch alright but not impossible, cost-wise. However I will have to keep a keen eye between now and end of year for new offerings. Am I right in assuming that best ‘value’ is invariably going to be UK? I hardly see any this side of the water. Do you reckon we’ll see much of a price drop for the X over the next six months? Y won’t be out for a while, but then again, would there be much cannibalisation, anyway?

Also, I’ve seen plenty of talk about the importance of having the residue of any Tesla warranty when buying used, mainly in discussions about the Model S. However I’ve seen elsewhere that these only apply if buying directly from Tesla. Is this your understanding / experience?

Anything else I should be making sure, when looking? Or any tips in general? My ideal would be a 6-seater (although 7 would do also), not bothered with performance models. Autopilot would be cool but not a deal-breaker.

Don’t have an X so can only comment on the warranty, if you buy a non CPO & there’s a remaining warranty Tesla will honour it. CPO cars from Tesla are more expensive and come with an extended warranty ie a 2016 CPO comes with a 2 year warranty, 2018 4 year or 50000 mls.

Keep an eye on Wilson’s in Epsom and R Symons, they seem to have quality used Tesla. I purchased mine sight unseen from Wilson’s and can’t fault them.

On Autopilot there’s 3 flavours, Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Drive. Personally I think it’ll be a long time before FSD is usable. Basic Autopilot probably ticks all the boxes for most.

Gumbo

https://tesla-info.com/inventory.html

slave1

As things stand you will have to pay VAT on a UK import after 31.12.20 so good time to start your search.

Gforcemurphy

slave1 wrote: »

As things stand you will have to pay VAT on a UK import after 31.12.20 so good time to start your search.

Yes that thought crossed my mind also. Double-deadline!

AmberGold

slave1 wrote: »

As things stand you will have to pay VAT on a UK import after 31.12.20 so good time to start your search.

Would you not be then entitled to claim back the UK VAT?

Kramer

AmberGold wrote: »

Would you not be then entitled to claim back the UK VAT?

From who? The UK government?
Never happened & never will - why would they .

graememk

Kramer wrote: »

From who? The UK government?
Never happened & never will - why would they .

You can claim vat back from purchases if you live outside the EU currently (and ofc the UK) when your going home. Never looked into it but just know it exists and seen the desks at the airport. (And the odd sign at some shops)

Although that all could still change come January, but the procedures and stuff is there

AmberGold

Kramer wrote: »

From who? The UK government?
Never happened & never will - why would they .

Have you prior experience of this? Doesn’t seem like it as it’s well documented ;

‘If the seller also charged VAT or an equivalent tax on the sale of the vehicle in the other country, then this can normally be reclaimed from the foreign supplier, once the vehicle is registered and VAT has been paid in Ireland. The purchaser must send proof of registration and payment of Irish VAT to the foreign supplier, who will then arrange repayment of the foreign VAT (or equivalent tax) subject to the regulations in that country.’

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/value-added-tax/part03-taxable-transactions-goods-ica-services/Goods/goods-transactions-motor-vehicles.pdf

graememk

AmberGold wrote: »

Have you prior experience of this? Doesn’t seem like it as it’s well documented ;

‘If the seller also charged VAT or an equivalent tax on the sale of the vehicle in the other country....

Thats to do with "new" cars, so if you buy a new car in the UK, and bring it over straight away you have to pay VAT and vrt. And then claim back the UK VAT.

A new car is under 6 months old or less than 6000km on the clock.

Kramer

AmberGold wrote: »

Have you prior experience of this? Doesn’t seem like it as it’s well documented ;

I've imported vehicles, both with no UK vat paid (vat paid here) & UK vat paid (no vat liability here). Theoretically, yes, one can reclaim the UK vat once vat is paid here, but I never once found evidence that this happened.

Some make agreements with dealers, especially in the North, whereby they (the UK dealer) withhold the UK vat & return it to the purchaser once they receive proof vat has been paid here.
That's why invariably, people import 6 month old with 6,000km on the clock, non NMT vehicles - to avoid the vat issue.

This is while the UK remain part of the EU, well, in the transition period anyway.
When this ends & they are totally left the EU, trade agreement aside, I'd wager there will be very few worthwhile vehicles to import.

Kramer

graememk wrote: »

Thats to do with "new" cars, so if you buy a new car in the UK, and bring it over straight away you have to pay VAT and vrt. And then claim back the UK VAT.

You say that with authority .
No UK vat should be paid on a New Means of Transport for export.
Given no vat should be paid, there is no means of "claiming back" vat paid.

All you need to do is get a dealer to sell you the vehicle sans vat. Most dealers have an issue with that, as they could be held liable for the vat themselves should the vehicle not ultimately be exported or, indeed, returned to the UK.

Back on topic, best of luck to the op in his search for a Model X.

User1998

Keep an eye on BCA in the UK, this is usually the cheapest way to buy any car

unkel

You have a third child on the way (congrats!), so you need 5 seats and lots of space. But do you need the 6 or 7 seats? How often? A Model S is far cheaper (and much better value imho) and if you only very occasionally need the 6th and / or 7th seat and only for small people, you could get a Model S with the 7 seat option.

Gforcemurphy

Kramer wrote: »

That's why invariably, people import 6 month old with 6,000km on the clock, non NMT vehicles - to avoid the vat issue.

I can see that the whole VAT thing can be a headmelter, but this is the main thing to bear in mind though, right? If over 6 months or 6k then no VAT (for anybody, including UK residents), so no issue? I’d say price would comfortably put me in that category anyway.

listermint

Doesn't the X have a lot of actual problems in comparison to the other Tesla models.

It would be the last on my Tesla list tbh .

Gforcemurphy

unkel wrote: »

You have a third child on the way (congrats!), so you need 5 seats and lots of space. But do you need the 6 or 7 seats? How often? A Model S is far cheaper (and much better value imho) and if you only very occasionally need the 6th and / or 7th seat and only for small people, you could get a Model S with the 7 seat option.

Thanks! The S does look great, although while I appreciate it is not a small car, space is probably going to be a deciding factor. Current car is a 12 year old Audi A4 estate. We know it won’t really work with two child seats and a booster (eldest will be 8). Plus all the baby paraphernalia, buggy etc. And I wouldn’t be surprised if we got a dog in the next couple of years (!) Thinking any time the whole family goes places. We don’t have a second car so this would cover all bases. I don’t (or didn’t) take a car to work.

I can see there’s a lot more choice (and probably value) in a Model S, but I’d say if I didn’t go for the X it would be something else with size (maybe a used XC90). Basically, I need something with maximum space, I want that to be an EV. I don’t necessarily want to fork out an arm and a leg for that, but there you go. (Oh and the falcon wing doors are a seller, not necessarily the look but for ease of access with kids, baby seats, etc.)

Gforcemurphy

Sorry what I meant to clarify above is that I didn’t think the S was that much of an upgrade, size-wise, on the A4 estate, although I could be wrong about that (never been in one). Also aren’t the extra seats rear facing? Which would also limit / eliminate boot space?

Gforcemurphy

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

Sorry what I meant to clarify above is that I didn’t think the S was that much of an upgrade, size-wise, on the A4 estate, although I could be wrong about that (never been in one). Also aren’t the extra seats rear facing? Which would also limit / eliminate boot space?

Edit: I just checked out a couple of videos and I may have quickly dismissed the S unfairly. I’ll keep researching, would be good to have this as a viable option also!

thos

Some of my thoughts on 6/7 seat and bits from my own X ownership:
- the 7 seater middle row bench makes the rear seats very claustrophobic, particularly if you get a dark interior, I felt they were less practical so you end up with a 5 seater plus 2 very small kids seats in the back the odd time (the rears have isofix, but I doubt enough room for a proper seat)
- the 6 seater is a full useable 6 seat vehicle, with adults fully able to sit in the back row. I've sat back there myself (5'10) for journeys of an hour and it's no issue. Because there is space down the middle of the car (nice wide gap between the 2 middle row seats) you get lots of light, and plenty of leg room. Very easy to have a conversation from drivers seat to back row as the car is nice and quiet, and no middle seats in the way
- you've still good decent boot space with the rear row of seats up, as you've got massive depth in the boot. Our buggy goes vertically in the boot, or else we put stroller in the "frunk". We generally keep the rear row up 99% of the time. Problem when there are down is that there is no divider, so the 5/7seater middle row probably acts better as the divider in that sense
- the challenge with the 6 seater is if you've got child seats and how much they interfere with the movement of the seat. If you're not familiar, the middle row moves back and forth (also tilts forward) to allow access to the very back. But for rear-facing car seats, this will clash with the front row seats, and make access to the back row a little more difficult. We had 1 rear facing and 1 front facing seat, so would just access the back row from the same side as the front facing seat, if that makes sense. This isn't a major problem for kids getting in the back row as you don't need to tilt the seats, then can generally get in the middle row and walk back between the 2 middle seats to the rear, whereas adults need direct access to the back
- the gull wing doors really make life so much easier for putting kids in car seats and doing up harnesses etc. We've had SUV's for a while, but the gull wings are just brilliant. We had a Model S for a few days to try out, it was original preference, but saloon and car seats is a challenge on your back (and patience)
- some 6 seaters aome with a centre console, very classy feature, but removes some of the practicalities of access to the rear. It is removable (4 bolts in the floor) but not easily added, so if you do happen to come across one it's worth having for the future
- our initial concerns around security / child proofing with the gull wings has all worked out fine, they can't open the doors from the rear, so we haven't had any accidental openings. We had 1 close encounter with a gull wing door closing down on our 2 year old, but as soon as it touched off her it stopped so no drama. It's too easy to press the remote and have all doors close while you walk away, so if you do have little ones it's just a little bit of extra care required, or just close the doors via the button on the door itself to make sure you are there
- no issues with the gull wing doors apart from that, the odd underground car park you might need to be more aware where the roof beams are, but to be frank the overall width and size of the car are more a challenge in our underground car parks than the doors themselves. Long and wide wheel base means you need to be a lot more aware
- I wouldn't say X has any more issues than the S. May depend on year, there were early issues with gull wing doors, but I haven't had a major issues. I have had mine back to get the doors aligned, but I think this is almost a serviceable thing at this point that they need the odd tweaking

Good luck!

Gforcemurphy

thos wrote: »

Some of my thoughts on 6/7 seat and bits from my own X ownership:
- the 7 seater middle row bench makes the rear seats very claustrophobic, particularly if you get a dark interior, I felt they were less practical so you end up with a 5 seater plus 2 very small kids seats in the back the odd time (the rears have isofix, but I doubt enough room for a proper seat)
- the 6 seater is a full useable 6 seat vehicle, with adults fully able to sit in the back row. I've sat back there myself (5'10) for journeys of an hour and it's no issue. Because there is space down the middle of the car (nice wide gap between the 2 middle row seats) you get lots of light, and plenty of leg room. Very easy to have a conversation from drivers seat to back row as the car is nice and quiet, and no middle seats in the way
- you've still good decent boot space with the rear row of seats up, as you've got massive depth in the boot. Our buggy goes vertically in the boot, or else we put stroller in the "frunk". We generally keep the rear row up 99% of the time. Problem when there are down is that there is no divider, so the 5/7seater middle row probably acts better as the divider in that sense
- the challenge with the 6 seater is if you've got child seats and how much they interfere with the movement of the seat. If you're not familiar, the middle row moves back and forth (also tilts forward) to allow access to the very back. But for rear-facing car seats, this will clash with the front row seats, and make access to the back row a little more difficult. We had 1 rear facing and 1 front facing seat, so would just access the back row from the same side as the front facing seat, if that makes sense. This isn't a major problem for kids getting in the back row as you don't need to tilt the seats, then can generally get in the middle row and walk back between the 2 middle seats to the rear, whereas adults need direct access to the back
- the gull wing doors really make life so much easier for putting kids in car seats and doing up harnesses etc. We've had SUV's for a while, but the gull wings are just brilliant. We had a Model S for a few days to try out, it was original preference, but saloon and car seats is a challenge on your back (and patience)
- some 6 seaters aome with a centre console, very classy feature, but removes some of the practicalities of access to the rear. It is removable (4 bolts in the floor) but not easily added, so if you do happen to come across one it's worth having for the future
- our initial concerns around security / child proofing with the gull wings has all worked out fine, they can't open the doors from the rear, so we haven't had any accidental openings. We had 1 close encounter with a gull wing door closing down on our 2 year old, but as soon as it touched off her it stopped so no drama. It's too easy to press the remote and have all doors close while you walk away, so if you do have little ones it's just a little bit of extra care required, or just close the doors via the button on the door itself to make sure you are there
- no issues with the gull wing doors apart from that, the odd underground car park you might need to be more aware where the roof beams are, but to be frank the overall width and size of the car are more a challenge in our underground car parks than the doors themselves. Long and wide wheel base means you need to be a lot more aware
- I wouldn't say X has any more issues than the S. May depend on year, there were early issues with gull wing doors, but I haven't had a major issues. I have had mine back to get the doors aligned, but I think this is almost a serviceable thing at this point that they need the odd tweaking

Good luck!

Great insight, thanks a million ðŸ‘

Fred_

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

... with a third kid on the way.... I’d say it would be a stretch alright but not impossible, cost-wise.

Great car. Would love to get one myself for many reasons. I know this is the motors forum... but is it prudent to be stretching to buy a luxury car with a third child on the way? Was in the same situation last year and opted for the safe, boring normal car.

markpb

unkel wrote: »

You have a third child on the way (congrats!), so you need 5 seats and lots of space. But do you need the 6 or 7 seats? How often? A Model S is far cheaper (and much better value imho) and if you only very occasionally need the 6th and / or 7th seat and only for small people, you could get a Model S with the 7 seat option.

This is an important point. The 6/7 seats in the model S are only suitable for very small children. The height and weight restrictions limit them a lot. I though the 7 seat S would be perfect for us but ended up discounting it (for our needs).

Gforcemurphy

Fred_ wrote: »

Great car. Would love to get one myself for many reasons. I know this is the motors forum... but is it prudent to be stretching to buy a luxury car with a third child on the way? Was in the same situation last year and opted for the safe, boring normal car.

It’s a fair point. Looking at the prices, that might end up being the way we go ourselves. I haven’t given up hope however. I’m a stubborn f*cker so will keep on searching / researching until I stumble on something that works or I reluctantly decide to change tack. I know it might be unlikely but I reckon I’ve another 6 months or so to see if prices come down a helpful amount. I would need to act fast if the right one comes up anyway, so we’ll see.

Gforcemurphy

markpb wrote: »

This is an important point. The 6/7 seats in the model S are only suitable for very small children. The height and weight restrictions limit them a lot. I though the 7 seat S would be perfect for us but ended up discounting it (for our needs).

I think so too - if I’m forking our that amount I would need to know the car would keep us in good stead for many a year. The X would do that I think. It’s not so much wanting the luxury (okay maybe a bit), but more that it doesn’t really have any current competition in its field (EV, large family focused). If I was to break my resolve and concede that the X is not workable, I think I would have to ditch the EV part, and just get a diesel family car. Or maybe a used XC90 (either diesel or plugin hybrid). And to be fair, as ‘consolation prizes’ go, that wouldn’t be too bad.

Fred_

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

It’s a fair point. Looking at the prices, that might end up being the way we go ourselves. I haven’t given up hope however. I’m a stubborn f*cker so will keep on searching / researching until I stumble on something that works or I reluctantly decide to change tack. I know it might be unlikely but I reckon I’ve another 6 months or so to see if prices come down a helpful amount. I would need to act fast if the right one comes up anyway, so we’ll see.

Good luck in the search. If you don't find one have a look at a Prius plus. It's a 7 seater estate. Last 2 seats are not usable for adults so we keep them folded down for an extra bit of space. It has 3 individual seats in the middle row so can take 3 child seats (2 isofix). Very practical and comfortable car and should hopefully be very reliable... But it is not fast /dynamic /sporty and is very expensive to buy.

slave1

We had a 5 (sometimes 7 seater for small kids) seater few years back, great as a novelty but after a few weeks the back pop up seats got used maybe once or twice a year, really think hard on the premium you are paying for those extra "seats"

unkel

I would only buy a used Model X if it came with a long warranty from Tesla. Minimum 2 years. The car is more troublesome than the Model S it is based on.

thos

unkel wrote: »

I would only buy a used Model X if it came with a long warranty from Tesla. Minimum 2 years. The car is more troublesome than the Model S it is based on.

Based on what? The bits I'm seeing issues with on X's are the same bits from S's anyway.

unkel

My advice would be to get a 2 year warranty from Tesla for a used Model S too

How much do Tesla charge if the falcon wing doors stop working?

flamegrill

List of issues I've had with a 2018 P100DL Model X

1) 12v battery gone, warranty issue sorted.
2) PTC heater in front POPed one Sunday, no AC for 5 weeks. Part replaced under warranty. (Interestingly enough I picked up a loaner Model X from them in Dec 19 and it was a P100DL as well, PTC was gone. Next day Steve (the ranger) came out and replaced it, of all the luck!!)
3) 12v battery gone, user issue (Zappi they blamed) 500 euro to fix
4) car packed up completely, wiring harness replaced and AC charger (oddly enough it only ever charged at 31a not 32, new one charges at 32a on our zappi, go figure) covered under warranty. Car with Tesla for 6 weeks beginning of 2020. Warranty.
5) yellowing around the screen, 4 hour UV treatment by Tesla, warranty.
6) Rear Drive unit failure (soft fail, wear limit reached), this took ages to get resolved but I was able to drive the car the whole time. This was after only 42k Km.
7) Driver door wouldn't open, warranty issue.
8) Driver door motor grinding and rear 12v socket not working, warranty issue most likely going in thursday 30/7

paid for upgades.

1) FSD
2) 2 x sets of tyres, 1500 each time (22" rims, 285 35 R22 back, 265 35 R22 front)
3) CCS upgrade
4) Bike rack for the hitch
5) Chademo adapter (will keep for Euro trips)

Ownership outside of warranty issues has been relatively good. Kids and wife love the car, it's Midnight Silver btw with 6 seater premium black interior. I bought a box trailer last year that's split horizontally. So we can put 2 big dogs in the bottom and 3-4 bikes on top.

With the 22" wheels realistic range at Motorway speed is around 280Km. On national routes, probably around 350km. I've only been caught out once and that was only last week. Forgot my type2 cable as I rarely use it.

Relatively good car, not perfect. Great for a family of 5.

KCross

flamegrill wrote: »

3) 12v battery gone, user issue (Zappi they blamed) 500 euro to fix

How would/could a charge point cause the 12V to fail? Did they elaborate on that? Sounds like a BS excuse to me.

flamegrill wrote: »

Relatively good car, not perfect. Great for a family of 5.

With that list of issues I'm sure alot of people wouldnt agree!

flamegrill

KCross wrote: »

How would/could a charge point cause the 12V to fail? Did they elaborate on that? Sounds like a BS excuse to me.

Yeah, they did actually. Low battery temp, very low air temp the Zappi kept switching from 6a to 31a on the pilot current rapidly which caused a contactor in the car to switch on and off rapidly. While charging the HV can't maintain the 12v battery so it just drained and boom, fubar.

The exact language used was:

Searched logs and found an issue caused by Third party EVSE equipment @ 01.04
03/12/19 The low temp of the pack and EVSE switching the pilot current between 6
amps and 31 amps caused contactors to switch constantly between precharge and
open which consumed 12v power while support was not possible.
Advise updating the firmware of the Zappi charger. Could we get the old and new
firmware versions for our own information please

KCross

flamegrill wrote: »

Yeah, they did actually. Low battery temp, very low air temp the Zappi kept switching from 6a to 31a on the pilot current rapidly which caused a contactor in the car to switch on and off rapidly. While charging the HV can't maintain the 12v battery so it just drained and boom, fubar.

Thats interesting.
Do you have SolarPV considering you said the Zappi was switching rapidly from 6A to 31A? It should only do that with SolarPV, I'd imagine?

And what interaction did you have with Zappi after that. Did they acknowledge the issue and push a firmware update to you to fix it on their end and its all OK now?

markpb

flamegrill wrote: »

Yeah, they did actually. Low battery temp, very low air temp the Zappi kept switching from 6a to 31a on the pilot current rapidly which caused a contactor in the car to switch on and off rapidly. While charging the HV can't maintain the 12v battery so it just drained and boom, fubar.

How cold was it when it happened? Which Zappi do you have?

Soarer

4 sets of tyres in two years?? :eek:

markpb

Soarer wrote: »

4 sets of tyres in two years?? :eek:

Someone was making the most of the P and L in the P100DL

flamegrill

KCross wrote: »

Thats interesting.
Do you have SolarPV considering you said the Zappi was switching rapidly from 6A to 31A? It should only do that with SolarPV, I'd imagine?

And what interaction did you have with Zappi after that. Did they acknowledge the issue and push a firmware update to you to fix it on their end and its all OK now?

I do, but this was at night. Considering 6 weeks later the car packed in and they had to replace the AC charger I'd wager that this was a problem with the car, more than the Zappi.

it was -3C that night.

MyEnergi sent out a hub and we updated the firmware. It hasn't reoccured since.. but since the charger and wiring harness were replaced we'll never really know for sure.

flamegrill

markpb wrote: »

How cold was it when it happened? Which Zappi do you have?

See my Response to KCross

flamegrill

Soarer wrote: »

4 sets of tyres in two years?? :eek:

Sorry I meant 2 sets of tyres. And yes, as someone else has said, the P and L are lovely .

I drive in ludicrous all the time, my wife drives in chill. Though since a Drive Unit went faulty I've calmed a small bit in the car. I guess after a year or more I should have had enough of my head and upper torso being stuck to the seat :):)

markpb

flamegrill wrote: »

I the charger and wiring harness were replaced we'll never really know for sure.

The mobile service guys told me there’s a recall for a wiring harness on the MX. I wonder if it’s related? Parts aren’t in stock and I got no other notification so Tesla aren’t acting as if it’s important.

unkel

P&L are there to be enjoyed all of the time!

The few extra tyres are well worth it and Tesla will pick up the full bill if you wreck a motor or a drive train. No need to service a Tesla either. A bit of a difference from the 80s Ferraris that needed a full GBP5k service every 2k miles with the engine unlikely to ever reach 50k miles. The fastest Ferrari could barely do a 0-60 in the same time as the slowest Tesla now

flamegrill

markpb wrote: »

The mobile service guys told me there’s a recall for a wiring harness on the MX. I wonder if it’s related? Parts aren’t in stock and I got no other notification so Tesla aren’t acting as if it’s important.

I haven't seen that or had any re-calls. They tend to do re-call type work when the car is in for other stuff. I've reviewed invoices and found bits n bobs for corrective work.

Jaysus some issues.