Transport Aircraft

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805021#Comment_121805021

They could do miles better having a look with an AWACS or Hawkeye instead of a poxy Puma..

sparky42

Well I suppose we have connections from the airlifts, might as well go begging for air drops as well…

https://www.thejournal.ie/gaza-israel-ireland-irish-aid-aid-airlift-air-drop-plans-6316398-Mar2024/

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850965#Comment_121850965

Suppose they are kind of busy with actual NATO work…

roadmaster

So if are lovely new casa is flying over Gaza who is going to protectbit from Hamas or Israel firing at it? Both sides have connections to people who have murdered irish troops over the years.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2024/0307/1436545-ireland-gaza/

Dohvolle

It has countermeasures fitted, remember? Though the DoD did say we weren't allowed send it anywhere they might be needed.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862166#Comment_121862166

The new 295's have a DAS system installed and you'd imagine the cargo 295 coming will too...

But a couple of questions are needing to be answered.

The MPA have great big LIDARs installed right behind the ramp protruding up through the deck, you won't be rolling anything bigger than a box out the back unless it's removed

Have any AC pilots airdropped para-loads from a fixed wing aircraft...ever? It's not something you learn in a morning.

sparky42

To be honest I think we are over reading the statement on what we are doing, I’d lay odds that at most we will have some aid being airdropped by someone else, the CASAs aren’t going to be involved in an airdrop anymore than any of the OPVs would be involved in bringing any aid in to the announced US port that is going to be built in Gaza.

Maybe if we have someone interested in defence in the couple of years when we have the Transport we might train for airdropping but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that either.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862988#Comment_121862988

Oh 100%...mostly just poking holes in Leo & MM over selling it.

EchoIndia

It doesn't sound like Irish aircraft will be going anywhere near an actual war zone.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/03/08/irish-plan-to-deploy-military-aircraft-for-gaza-aid-relief-under-consideration/

jonnybigwallet

They don't have a suitable plane. They need something bigger in the future. EG an Embraer 390.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864295#Comment_121864295

Could they just not hire a cargo plane to drop the aid to Jordan

Grassy Knoll

I’m in two minds on this. Firstly good on one level to see IAC aircraft being deployed on different missions globally and showcasing the potential of what a modern, well equipped air force can offer. Also good for the crews involved.

However as has been indicated here, these planes are kitted out for a completely different function with what I understand to be state of the art equipment. Humping freight about in the Middle East means they are not performing their critical function over our maritime domain. Also we are not involved in the actual air drop as we are not equipped to do this … perhaps the transport C295 will offer this, or is it this type is too small to properly perform this function in a meaningful manner? Anyway the role if it goes ahead, will be symbolic in that assets of the State are supporting the humanitarian effort and politically helps answer the critics that we lack the equipment to perform such functions. Bottom line is we need to equip our services to deliver a meaningful role with proper equipment.

Larbre34

I guess we can either stuff the 295MPAs as far as possible, and have them do a few shuttle runs, or we can not send them at all.

In the circumstances, sending them to Jordan to reload onto appropriate tactical transporters is the way to go.

I wonder though is it giving the Government pause for thought in any way, that the 295M is too small and too far away from operation.

Wouldn't it have been just better to buy a tidy C-130J from Britain when the chance was there.

A Herc in the hand is worth two 295s in the bush.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865013#Comment_121865013

Apart from the fact that there was no way we could have stood up the people/supports needed to sustain a 130 operationally right now? And no the chances are there is no recognition of the limitations we have because of political choices, just as how nobody is going to look at the EU sending a ship now and the US talking about a port facility and go "maybe having the MRV would have allowed us to do something"...

Larbre34

I can't envisage how a C-130 would be significantly more complex to operate than a 295M.

Maybe technically the older design needs a bit more TLC, but operationally they both need two pilots, a loadmaster and for jobs such as this, an on-board technician double-jobbing as a spotter/sentry.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865701#Comment_121865701

And do we have a number of flight crews certified on C130s? How long would it take to train them up if not? Are they sitting around doing nothing or would it mean pulling flight crews from the 295s and reducing their operations to stand up a C 130? How is the supply chain for the support of a C 130 given it would be a new aircraft in AC service, do we have the spare ground crew for maintenance and support? Or they trained to support a C 130 right now (ie trained on supporting different engines, avionics etc)? If not how long does that take? Does the AC have the manpower available for all this as it stands?

There are plenty of issues beyond just buying the hardware, no matter how cheap the RAF were flogging them.

roadmaster

If the two current 295s are used for lifting aid can the radar/sonar sensor located at the rear ramp can it be moved or do loading crews just have to be xtra carefull not to hit it?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865701#Comment_121865701

C130 still has a 3 person cabin, even the C-130J requires a thirs person in the cabin at take off and landing. It's a position we have no other use for.

https://youtu.be/65v35lFfpuk?si=fWgXGNmMBWCBzk1o

If you want to buy an ancient C130H, fair enough, but you'd get something like an Embraer C390 and have more capacity, with only 2 turbofans to worry about with a lot more capacity and capability.

C130 was fine when there was nothing else available.

There is now.

https://youtu.be/Uh-hQ12GMiE?si=XsEFHtOYsgQO6kqk

Grassy Knoll

I’ll hazard a guess and say with a high degree of confidence no one is trained to operate or maintain a Herc in Baldonnel, but the point for me is they give a whole other level of capability to what a C295 can provide. Sure they mean a whole other different level of skills are required, but given what the C130:offers to have one in the fleet makes it worthwhile. There is no doubt one would be worked to bits, as were the C235s, but it could mean the C295s do what they were acquired for (and do it very well) and a C130 would be well occupied as a tactical transporter. Really it comes down to a case of horses (or planes) for courses …

obviously we took the easier option of a third of the type, and while better than nothing, does IMHO come with limitations.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867017#Comment_121867017

Being careful is an understatement. It can't be moved. Not temporarily at least.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867414#Comment_121867414

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing that a Herc offers a huge range more of options compared to the third 295 and in an ideal world the AC would have got at least one nearly 25 years ago when they floated it, used it to death and now be looking forward to getting a new model or yes having picked up some cheap from the neighbours when they were on sale. But we are where we are, even if we had bought one of the RAF birds, would we even have it operational at this point? Or would it be a monument sitting in Baldonnel as the AC struggled to get the funding for all the needed manpower/training/supply chain support etc?

Like pretty much every aspect of the DF, none of us would want to start from where we are, and getting anything more effective/capable is going to be a struggle.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867017#Comment_121867017

The LIDAR is the big protruding Box in the floor with the hazard tape around it...it's a precision bit of Kit so you probably don't want to dismount it too much

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867417#Comment_121867417

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867713#Comment_121867713

So in short leave the Casa 295 MPA for what they got bought for

tippilot

You would have to assume also that centre of gravity issues would limit the weight of cargo that can be loaded aft.

You can also be sure that no one else will be sending aircraft with literally millions of euros worth of sensitive electronics on a cargo run. However I do believe that the Air Corps will have put their hand up for the mission. Although it's really a token gesture, it may serve as a useful demonstration of the need for more than one or even larger dedicated aircraft. There's also political capital to be had internationally in sending a national aircraft into such situations.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867595#Comment_121867595

Worth looking at how the other US built aircraft in the Air Corps is doing after 20 years service.

We need to accept that though we aren't a NATO member, we are an EU member. The EU isn't replacing its hercs with hercs. We should follow that lead.

Long term we can't count on the USA to support "just in time" parts.

roadmaster

Today would be a good day for government press release to announce the purchase of A A320 as the new state jet and extra 2 casa 295 transports. The media would be to busy to run with it.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873986#Comment_121873986

Its sunday.

Nobody in the press office works sundays.

vswr

Unless IAC are willing to buy new... C-130's aren't a bad idea, with the correct contract in place. You could easily source aircraft and parts for 15-20 years service. Bearing in mind one of the biggest overhaul facilities is just across the water in Cambridge (along with Sabena in Belgium) I'm sure they'd be delighted to have a regular customer so close on their books. Both will be in the Herc game for another 20-30 years at least, once their US mil and foreign mil contracts hold up.

That said, contract dependent... Irish Government don't really do them all too well.

see_from_the_outside

If only we had a C130. But if we are looking at bringing a new rating in. This will take time and a lot of training. So we should buy new. Rather than looking at old Tech we should be looking at what out EU partners are using. I know people will go crazy at suggesting a A400. But it ticks so many boxes. Easy to skip due on production. Probably get EU support on finance. Has partner countries to support us on maintenance. EU supply chain. Can move a massive load of kit. While being built we can have crew in UK/Germany or France training and getting rated. If we say it is too big for our requirements. Who knows what the future will be like. Luxemberg has 1 unit and Belgium has 6 with another on order.

jonnybigwallet

Them C130's are old hat! Better to move with the times and get Ann Embraer 390.