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Transport Aircraft

1192022242530

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I think they wanted to but had no takers. The buyers were probably afraid they would get aussie built ones. Remember they have not a great rep when it comes to building stuff look what they did to the Styer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    However...

    NZ only bought NH90s because Australia operate them, as they do interoperate closely at home and overseas.

    The ending of engineering support for the '90 in continental Australia, will leave NZ facing vastly increased costs to locally maintain its relatively small fleet of 8.

    While reported as reliable, the type did cause a minor political storm in New Zealand a few years back, where an opposition Party revealed that the 8 airframes had consumed NZ$ 3.3 million worth of spares in just two years.

    Whatever we might say about Air Corps acquisitions and fleet modernisation, at least we dodged that particular shitbox.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭Psychlops




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Then it transpired that the Air Corps didn’t have the large helicopters required to transport Mitterrand and his party (the Irish offered to rent some helicopters, but the French said they’d supply their own)

    The above taken from the State Papers. Imagine the goverment didnt no the air corps didnt have large helicopters maybe they taught they still had the puma



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I don't think thats how it went.

    The two governments got into logistical planning for the visit. The Garda Commissioner put forward a policing and security plan, but the French officials said, ah mais non, vous must have super-medium helicopters and armour protected road vehicles if you are to transport M. Le President, to which the Irish replied that we have none of that fancy highfaluting 20th Century technology and the French said, fine we'll send our own on the visit, end of.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Plus ca change.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭sparky42


    To be fair, they would likely bring hardware themselves even if we had some equipment, I mean my Godfather was one of Foreign Affairs go to drivers and was involved in plenty of those trip of visits (from the Pope to Clinton), pretty much all brought something. Not that that changes how badly equipped we were.

    That being said, bare in mind what level of funding we are talking about, looking at one of the other articles from the State Papers there's this:

    costing the Republic between £600 million (€4.8 billion) and £800 million (€6.4 billion). This was the equivalent of between a third and half of the total tax take in the State in 1975.

    Even with a decade plus (and not a great period for the economy to put it mildly), the state's finances were beyond tiny.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Garda wording on the Puma looked odd to say the least. DId the Germans fly it for AGS?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Yes, and there were three German Pumas used.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Some of the clarifations for the government jet.

    Someone wants to offer a second hand aircraft.

    A company wants to offer more than one type of aircraft.

    Questions over the range 3500 nm.

    Labour laws? That must be a south american company!!!

    Company has to have provided service similar nature from two off the following EU, Nato or ANZUS member nations



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭EchoIndia




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Bundesgardasíochána.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Thats the sort of initiative this DF needs more of. If the men and women were let.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    No.3 operations wing currently have a tender out for marine life jackets that can carry ballistic plate protection. Could this be for future deployments over seas ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Or perhaps someone pointed out what could have been needed for boarding hostile ships? Or in connection to the suggestion of the ARW segment moving to Haulbowline?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I taught that my self but i am sure the ARW would have all there own gear. Maybe the air corps crew themselves had no protection during the operation and it was pointed out to them my a nice ranger



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭sparky42


    That’s my thinking of it tbh as well, or some variation of that, though given they have practiced boarding ships before you would have thought that it would have come up?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Special Operations - Maritime Task Group😉

    We'll all have to get used to these new terms soon enough!

    They could do with something a bit more catchy though, for the three disciplines. I'm going to full Jonny and suggest

    SO - Land Task Group - Force Ranger / Forsa Lorgaire

    SO - Maritime Task Group - Force Dolphin / Forsa Deilf

    SO - Air Task Group - Force Kestrel / Forsa Pocaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Never go full Jonny...😋

    Also you can it Force Dolphin and how long before they are all called Fungie?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Thats a point alright. I was looking for some creature from our native seas, of speed and intelligence! And Seals are a bit taken!

    Also Dauphin is french for Dolphin, in a nice little easter egg of glorious Heli Ops past.

    Force Shark / Siorc

    or Force Orca / Grampus, nó An Chráin Dhubh

    Cráin Dubh is a great Irish moniker. It variously means the Black torment, Black sow, or large aging Cow Seal.

    Maybe we'd stick with Grampus for safety!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Leave it as it is. With an air sea and land component suffix.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    Wouldn't a traditional water animal for us be an Otter?..a secretive but ferocious hunter😋



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I like that!

    Otter is Dobharchú, after the legend of the ferocious Water Hound, An Dobhar-Chú.

    And Jonny, I think if it were anyone else saying it but me, you'd be more inventive. We've had the 'Army Rangers' for last 50 years, its a great brand and if the DF want to keep the special forces high in the public consciousness, it need something more evocative than 'Ireland Special Operations Force - Land/Maritime/Air Task Group.'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    There's a balance there I think. Obviously the personnel, the barracks, the gear, the ops, the procedures and all that needs to be appropriately guarded for an SOF.

    But, the ARW has always made for excellent PR, whether sweeping jungles in East Timor or doing FP in Chad and Mali, or storming fleeing ships from the air to take drugs out of circulation. To my mind, they are the biggest recruitment tool that DF has. And the fact the DF supports the making of the 'Hell Week' show, and facilities media access to big set-piece exercises, indicates that they are keenly aware.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    According to the detailed plan the extra Medium helicopters are due to be delivered by Q2 next year. More than likely they will be AW139s .

    Leonardo at the Moment say it takes 20 months for a SAR aircraft to be delivered and it took 18 Months for the poles to get there 1st helicopters of leonardo are we looking at maybe leased helicopters to make delivery dates unless new builds are ordered by next month?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    We will know i suppouse in the coming months. i wonder will we see a move for the UK EC135s as the UK has histroy for selling of things that they could use else where.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Well that and the press were on about how much the rental cost etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    "But the intention is that it would not be a Government jet, solely for the purpose of transporting ministers to important meetings. That’s only part of the reason why a country needs to have air transport. It will also be used for ambulance transfer, it will also be used for citizen evacuation because sometimes we need to evacuate citizens from other parts of the world.

    “It will also be used to help our Defence Forces to get to and from places like Lebanon.

    “The Learjet, which is our current jet, doesn’t get that far, can’t get to America, can’t get to Lebanon. If it had been in use today, I would have had to refuel on the way."

    Sounds like he's softening us up to buy an A321XLR!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    They have a sort of get out jail card in that the tender said

    ESTIMATED VALUE (EUR):45,400,00

    So they could turn around and say the market as said the plane will cost 96 million



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    Just like the Tpy-4, I'd applaud the ambition if they did decide to go big.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No, I didn't seriously think so, but as the lads have said, they are not handcuffed by the indicative cost and could buy a airliner rather than a Bizjet, if the economic advantage of it were to be established.

    I still think the Falcon 8X, with 12 pax layout, @ ~€50 million, is likely in pole position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭sully2010


    They seem to be getting cozy in them so my bet would also be a Falcon, also the fact relations are very good with France at the moment.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/friendship-with-ireland-gives-kosovo-a-vital-ally-in-mission-to-join-the-eu/a1898863969.html

    I was thinking 6X, same pax, less range but sufficient - DUB-LAX or DUB-HKG. It would be nice if they showed a bit of ambition and went with the 8X, DUB to pretty much anywhere direct apart from Australia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    AI is hilariously infantile still. I asked it to generate me a Falcon 8X in an Irish Air Corps colour scheme and it did this.

    I mean full marks for effort🤣




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    And then I was on a roll, and asked for a Saab Grippen decked out similarly, and I got this 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    Its like a PC9 fell into the Incredible Hulk's machine.

    I mean I'm pretty sure those are the laser cannons off an X-Wing Fighter!!

    PMSL.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    One of the many articles below over the learjet the last few days. The article has leo saying its not relieable to bring him to the balkans but it appears its good enoght to work as an air ambulance.




  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭sully2010


    Multi city visit to the Balkans, having to refuel to get there and the high potential to break down between city visits is enough to warrant the charter imo. It's embarrassing at this point them getting stranded with the Learjet going tech. Having said that they could have got a cheaper charter.

    He confirmed in that article it would be a Gulfstream size/range replacement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If its as bad as they make out it should be taken out of service straight away. What happens if a sick child is being transported for a time critical operation and the learjet breaks down as it taxis to the runway?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Wasnt the excuse for not using the pc12 is that its not safe enoght for our leaders



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  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭sully2010


    They have used it but its a fair excuse, I doubt there are many governments flying around in one engine aircraft. There is the new CASA though, but both are short on range. The Learjet probably would have been fine but they have the excuse now to spend €30k to charter a Falcon, and no one seems to be kicking up a fuss.

    Slovakia, similar population to us with 1/5 of the GDP and the government have 2 private A319's. Putting the red carpet up to PC-12 for international meetings really isn't a good look. But its all down to their own dithering for far too long.

    Post edited by sully2010 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,697 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I assume the p24 is considered way too small , its not got transatlantic range , easily got european range , and a more reasonable running cost ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    No leaks on the goverment jet yet. I taught one of the sundays would have had something.

    I notice the air corps are giving the learjet alot of coverage in social media about its air ambo role.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭vswr


    Hopefully some lessons learned after the CG contract



  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭tippilot


    Elephant in the room is that the Lear will also need replacing no matter what is selected. The current tender is a GIV replacement.

    The PC24 seems to be a good fit for the shorter haul work the Lear was bought for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That seems like a good idea to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    PC24 works very well for the Royal Flying Doctors in Australia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Speaking of the learjet its had a very busy january so far, its just back from a trip to Austria



  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭sully2010


    If they had budgeted an extra €5-€10m they could have done a full MATS fleet replacement and have 2 brand new jets and be done with it for the next 20 years. The Falcon 6X for long hops and the PC24 for short hops. As you say a lot of commonality with the PC12 and has proven to work very well as an air ambulance.

    This makes way too much sense for the govt though, they'll get the new jet and still complain the Lear is breaking down and use the Falcon or Gulfstream or whatever it is on short hops.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,544 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I'm assuming the Lear will be disposed of immediately that its practical. I mean as it is, the Govt are using chartered Falcon 2000 LXS and Citation M2s to fulfil engagements, so the Lear could theoretically be got rid of immediately to save further spend.

    Also I don't think purchasing a larger jet removes the possibility of getting a PC-24 or similar at all. Perhaps their plan is the large jet, plus on-call charters if and when required .

    I would certainly question the need for a light jet when the fleet will have the bizjet, 3 x C295s and 4 x PC12s before long.



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