Will

cj maxx

Hi .
My elderly parents recently changed their will, they told me this, and rather than leaving the farm to me as per the original will its to be sold and the proceeds spilt between their children.
I've told them both I will challenge this under proprietary estoppel ? and both seem to support me in this.(I know it begs the question why it was changed in the 1st place )
My question is, do I need to wait until the will is read ,my parents dieing, and then challenge it , or should I be engaging a solicitor now to give notification of a challenge ( if that makes sense)to their solicitor.
I hope this makes sense.
Thank you

coylemj

Can you elaborate on how you are going to get the legal system to effectively force your parents to will the farm to you, to the exclusion of your siblings?

brian_t

cj maxx wrote: »

both seem to support me in this

Why don't they just write another will undoing the changes.

Alrigghtythen

The obviously rewrote the will as they want all the children to get something. What makes you think you get to decide what they do with their property?

cj maxx

coylemj wrote: »

Can you elaborate on how you are going to get the legal system to effectively force your parents to will the farm to you, to the exclusion of your siblings?

I'm not, I was asking if I need to give notification or wait until my parents die

cj maxx

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

The obviously rewrote the will as they want all the children to get something. What makes you think you get to decide what they do with their property?

Because they told me so and I have farmed it , paying them to do so

jimbobaloobob

cj maxx wrote: »

Because they told me so and I have farmed it , paying them to do so

Have they told your siblings?

punisher5112

Is this not a good thing that everyone gets a share???

If this was how it went down for me I'd rather get nothing as that stress and rubbish with family is shocking to be honest.....


They worked hard for it I'm sure and if they have it to the cats home that's their wish....


Is there more to this?

Alrigghtythen

cj maxx wrote: »

Because they told me so and I have farmed it , paying them to do so

So you had it rented from them. How does that mean it's yours?

punisher5112

Bizarre attitude to have to those that brought you up and gave you everything you needed... Well hopefully....

My dad's house etc is his to do as he pleases as he worked hard for it all.

jimbobaloobob

Are you a witness to the will?

splinter65

cj maxx wrote: »

Hi .
My elderly parents recently changed their will, they told me this, and rather than leaving the farm to me as per the original will its to be sold and the proceeds spilt between their children.
I've told them both I will challenge this under proprietary estoppel ? and both seem to support me in this.(I know it begs the question why it was changed in the 1st place )
My question is, do I need to wait until the will is read ,my parents dieing, and then challenge it , or should I be engaging a solicitor now to give notification of a challenge ( if that makes sense)to their solicitor.
I hope this makes sense.
Thank you

There’s nothing you can do about the will until both your parents have died. You should contact Teagasc in the meantime to see if they can advise you.

the hedgeman

cj maxx wrote: »

Hi .
My elderly parents recently changed their will, they told me this, and rather than leaving the farm to me as per the original will its to be sold and the proceeds spilt between their children.
I've told them both I will challenge this under proprietary estoppel ? and both seem to support me in this.(I know it begs the question why it was changed in the 1st place )
My question is, do I need to wait until the will is read ,my parents dieing, and then challenge it , or should I be engaging a solicitor now to give notification of a challenge ( if that makes sense)to their solicitor.
I hope this makes sense.
Thank you

Maybe the other members of your family influenced their decision to change their will but looks like your elderly parents genuinely want you to have the farm but don't want to be seen giving favouritism over the rest

Peregrinus

There is nothing you can do about the will, but if you think you have a claim to the land you can certainly take action now to assert that claim, and try to avert the possiblity of your parents leaving a will which purports to deal with the land in a way that you think is inconsistent with your interest in the land.

There will be the most God-awful family row, but the row will be much, much worse, and much, much harder to resolve, if you put off having it until after your parents are dead. They are the ones who are changing their wills to leave the farm you you and your siblings equally, and at the same time supporting you in your intention of challenging the will. That's a disaster waiting to happen. The situation urgently needs to be confronted now, when your parents are still alive. Feasible solutions are (a) your parents revoke the latest will, and make another leaving the land to you as you have been led to expect; (b) your current parents wills remain in place and you accept the situation and get used to your new, reduced expectations; or (c) some middle ground in which your parents leave the farm, or the bulk of it, to you, but your siblings get some other assets, or you get a majority share in the farm but your siblings get a smaller share, or something of the kind. All kinds of possibilities are open, but only while your parents are stil alive and in full possession of their wits. This is a messy situation to confront but, the longer you put it off, the messier it will be, and resolving it by negotiation and compromise between you, your parents and your siblings while you still can will involve a fraction of the cost, and a fraction of the pain, that putting it off until your parents are dead will involve.

lawred2

"They seem fine with that"

Really?

cj maxx

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

Are you a witness to the will?

No

cj maxx

Peregrinus wrote: »

There is nothing you can do about the will, but if you think you have a claim to the land you can certainly take action now to assert that claim, and try to avert the possiblity of your parents leaving a will which purports to deal with the land in a way that you think is inconsistent with your interest in the land.

There will be the most God-awful family row, but the row will be much, much worse, and much, much harder to resolve, if you put off having it until after your parents are dead. They are the ones who are changing their wills to leave the farm you you and your siblings equally, and at the same time supporting you in your intention of challenging the will. That's a disaster waiting to happen. The situation urgently needs to be confronted now, when your parents are still alive. Feasible solutions are (a) your parents revoke the latest will, and make another leaving the land to you as you have been led to expect; (b) your current parents wills remain in place and you accept the situation and get used to your new, reduced expectations; or (c) some middle ground in which your parents leave the farm, or the bulk of it, to you, but your siblings get some other assets, or you get a majority share in the farm but your siblings get a smaller share, or something of the kind. All kinds of possibilities are open, but only while your parents are stil alive and in full possession of their wits. This is a messy situation to confront but, the longer you put it off, the messier it will be, and resolving it by negotiation and compromise between you, your parents and your siblings while you still can will involve a fraction of the cost, and a fraction of the pain, that putting it off until your parents are dead will involve.

My father isn't in full possession of his wits , old age or whatever, and wasn't when the will was changed. 2 siblings have been given POA over his affairs because of that.
They (parents) have , I believe, to have been placed under undue pressure from my siblings to change the will in their favour.
My only qualification is my green cert and I have a disability.
My siblings always seemed to resent growing up on a small farm while I embraced it slowly building up machinery and fencing etc. and going through the national reserve to increase my entitlements .
I'll talk to a solicitor promptly

seagull

Had the POA already been granted back when the will was changed? If so, what basis was it given on?

Alrigghtythen

Instead of trying to bully your parents, why dont you rent somewhere else?

Mod
This forum is for legal discussion, not for insulting posters

Bass Reeves

Is the farm your only source of income. If your siblings have POA and have arranged the change of the will, you need to make sure that the older will is kept and not destroyed

Mrs OBumble

Why do you think you should be the sole beneficiary, though? You have as much right to inherit from your parents as your siblings do.

It's only fair that you would be paying out your siblings their share if the property in cash, if you actually get the property.

cj maxx

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Is the farm your only source of income. If your siblings have POA and have arranged the change of the will, you need to make sure that the older will is kept and not destroyed

Apart from any disability benefits, yes it's my only income. Whatever I get keeping a few cattle+ claiming bps et al.
A very small income but the only one I actually 'earn'.

splinter65

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Instead of trying to bully your parents, why dont you rent somewhere else?

You haven’t a clue what’s going on here. Not a clue.

Bass Reeves

cj maxx wrote: »

Apart from any disability benefits, yes it's my only income. Whatever I get keeping a few cattle+ claiming bps et al.
A very small income but the only one I actually 'earn'.

You may have two grounds for challenging the first is proprietary estoppel this is where a promise was made and you made life choices because of this which has limited you life choices. This also would cover the situation where you have maintained your parents by renting the farm and they gave you a promise on inheritance.

you also have a case because of your disability and because you stayed at home to farm provision should be made for this. You need to take to a solicitor. Gennerally a will is challenged after the benefactor pass away.

However in this case there are two issue's in play, if the land was in your father name only and he is sole benefactor was he in a fit state of mine to change the will. Even if he was did he and your mother come under pressure from your siblings to change the will. A solicitor would be best placed to give you advice on which way to proceed.

The reason generally that will are not challenged until probate is that in cases where there is justifiable reason for challenging the will and in your case there is, the legal costs come out of the residue of the estate. The solicitor will explain all this to you.

The main thing at present may be to try to make sure the old will is not destroyed but in general if they used the same solicitor it more than likely is.

Finally was your disability in any way caused by farming or on the farm if it did it will strengthen your case

zephyro

cj maxx wrote: »

I'll talk to a solicitor promptly

This has all the makings of an almighty mess ending with the value of your parents' assets in the pockets of legal eagles and little or nothing for you and your siblings, have seen it before. If possible, could you all discuss this together and see if you can reach an agreement that avoids years of grief and expense? From what you've said, a fair solution may be for you to inherit and your siblings to get cash payments in lieu of their shares.

cj maxx

Finally was your disability in any way caused by farming or on the farm if it did it will strengthen your case[/quote]


No ,a chronic neurological condition, which may have played a part in why my parents were influenced. As in , if I get to a stage where I'm not physically fit to farm it what will happen to it? The conversation I had with them after they told me of the new arrangement dealt with that issue. As well as reaffirming the promise that I would pay the cost of their care if they needed it and funeral costs ( strangely the thing they were most concerned about).
They're not the kind to give me a fait accompli like this new arrangement without discussing it with me first which also has me alarmed

longgonesilver

Which happened first, the new will or your father's poa?

cj maxx

longgonesilver wrote: »

Which happened first, the new will or your father's poa?

I'm not sure. I was told about the new situation in Feb. My understanding is it was all done at the same time. The POA's make sense as my parents can't be running into town to handle bank and financial matters etc and I don't live there and might be unavailable.
We had discussed changes to the original will as my mother wanted to change some things like leaving the house to my brother who is the only other sibling ,Iike me, who doesn't own their house. I was ok with that as I would get the land which includes a site . originally left to said brother , the only real site in the farm.
The fact that after I told them I would challenge it and they both said ok , one even approached me to tell me I was right, leads me to think that they were pressured into it

Alrigghtythen

cj maxx wrote: »

I'm not sure. I was told about the new situation in Feb. My understanding is it was all done at the same time. The POA's make sense as my parents can't be running into town to handle bank and financial matters etc and I don't live there and might be unavailable.
We had discussed changes to the original will as my mother wanted to change some things like leaving the house to my brother who is the only other sibling ,Iike me, who doesn't own their house. I was ok with that as I would get the land which includes a site . originally left to said brother , the only real site in the farm.
The fact that after I told them I would challenge it and they both said ok , one even approached me to tell me I was right, leads me to think that they were pressured into it

So.its not just the farm is it? You want the site aswell and their house. Did you mother have to get clearance from you to leave her house to your brother?

What do you think your other siblings (apart from the brother your mam changed the house) should get?

cj maxx

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

So.its not just the farm is it? You want the site aswell and their house. Did you mother have to get clearance from you to leave her house to your brother?

What do you think your other siblings (apart from the brother your mam changed the house) should get?

?? I'm not sure what you mean. I was to get the house+farmland.
I brother has a site , in his name so already dealt with.1 brother to get the home now as he has no prospect of ever buying or building. 2 siblings who were put through college and live far away to spilt a field to sell or build . My understanding is that not every child is entitled to an equal share. Though those , namely me, who had worked it under a stated, in writing and verbal understanding that I would inherit it would be able to ,at least claim, an entitlement that it wouldn't be changed at the last minute . And who under that understanding went to Ag college and completed his education with a certificate in farming. My mother did not need or ask for my clearance. Rather in a rational way explained why she wanted to change it so my brother would at least not be left homeless. I don't want the site and the house rather one of them. Maybe that wasn't clear. It's not a moral issue I was asking, rather a legal one. But the advice I've got from my solicitor is that it has to be done post mortem. Which is what no-one wanted.

vikings2012

This is a very tricky situation.

You’re mother appears to be sane and have her wits about her. Do you also believe she was unduly pressured into changing the will by your other siblings?

I would highly recommend your mother, father, yourself and a teagasc advisor sitting down to discuss the various issues on hand. Try to avoid the use of solicitors at this stage. They are too expensive and depending on the solicitor can show a lack of empathy and understand of farming families and the importance of a small farm. They really only care about the hard facts whereas teasagc advisors can oftentimes relate more to the situation on hand and are cheaper!

In relation to the comment passed by your parents ‘they are happy for you to challenge’ this might not necessarily mean they were unduly pressurized into changing the will. They most likely understand that a challenge mainly happens post death and understand that the issue will no longer be their problem.

Perhaps they simply want to provide an equal share to all their children? (their desire) and are happy for whomever to make whatever challenges post their existence.

I do empathize with you OP. It’s hard to see something you love (aka your farm) slip between your fingers. I would say however the maintenance of a strong and loving relationship with your parents is far more important than any asset or farm holdings. I assume you are living with them and plan on living with them for the upcoming future? It would be awful to create a hostile living environment for all.

Have a chat with them really understand why they made the decision to change the will. Respect their decisions.

Wills, land and money can bring out the ugliness and greed in an individual. Please don’t let this happen to you. In my opinion it’s not how I would like my parents to remember me.

The above are only my thoughts on this relatable matter. Best of luck

rock22

cj maxx wrote: »

?? I'm not sure what you mean. I was to get the house+farmland.
..
Though those , namely me, who had worked it under a stated, in writing and verbal understanding that I would inherit it would be able to ,at least claim, an entitlement that it wouldn't be changed at the last minute . And who under that understanding went to Ag college and completed his education with a certificate in farming. …

But the advice I've got from my solicitor is that it has to be done post mortem. Which is what no-one wanted.

I would speak to your solicitor again.
If you are basing your claim on the basis of an understanding relating to you working the land etc., then you are now been told that understanding no longer applies. This might weaken you position 'post mortem'
Also you will continue to work the land knowing that you have no expectation of inheriting.
As previous poster said , maybe also get advise from teagasc. But I wouldn't wait to act until after your parents have died. If you are not to inherit the farm them perhaps now is the time to move on.