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  • By public demand...do you not think that if the majority of the population wanted only non-religious schools, that there would be only non-religious schools in the Country by now? I mean that it has been publicized enough. Could it be that the majority actually want religion taught in their school's?? For sure, in the part of rural Ireland that I live in, there is no great desire for change.




  • biko wrote: »
    Two NUIG medical students died fighting for Islamic state after becoming radicalised while living in Galway
    Was it a once-off, or a theme - what do you think?
    Will we see less of things like this in the future, or more of things like this?

    That's both a terrible non-sequitur and hasty generalisation. For comparison, rumour has it that there were many Christians involved in terrorism in the troubles here in Ireland on both sides of the conflict. That doesn't imply Irish Christians have a tendency towards terrorism, even though certain hard right figures in the UK have painted that picture in the past. Stereotypes such as these are dangerous and divisive.

    While I've no time for organised religion myself, least of all Islam, having worked and holidayed in a number of Muslim majority countries over the years I'd say most of the Muslims I've met tend to be friendly and generous spirited. In terms of religious zeal I'd say they'd be similar the rural Catholics in Ireland in the 60s and 70s. As for abandoning religion, lots of Muslims in the UK have and continue to do so. The equivalent of the 'a-la-carte Catholic' over here would be the 'pork pie Muslim'. I know plenty of them.




  • jmreire wrote: »
    By public demand...do you not think that if the majority of the population wanted only non-religious schools, that there would be only non-religious schools in the Country by now? I mean that it has been publicized enough. Could it be that the majority actually want religion taught in their school's??

    Repeated surveys show that the majority of parents want secular education.
    But possession is nine-tenths of the law, and the catholic church possesses nine-tenths of our national schools...

    And I don't think anyone is realistically suggesting that religious schools will be banned in any of our lifetimes in this country

    For sure, in the part of rural Ireland that I live in, there is no great desire for change.

    How do you know? A lot of people who disagree still keep their heads down, don't want themselves or their kids marked out as 'different' especially in a rural area, so do sacraments etc.

    There's also a FUD campaign which kicks in in any school where divestment has been suggested, all you need is to spook 51% of parents with nonsense and outright lies about Christmas being banned, or grandparents not being allowed to be involved with the school, and you can obstruct all change.

    The so-called divestment process is designed to fail and the Dept. Ed has connived with the RCC in this.

    Bring back the :pac: !





  • smacl wrote: »
    That's both a terrible non-sequitur and hasty generalisation. For comparison, rumour has it that there were many Christians involved in terrorism in the troubles here in Ireland on both sides of the conflict. That doesn't imply Irish Christians have a tendency towards terrorism, even though certain hard right figures in the UK have painted that picture in the past. Stereotypes such as these are dangerous and divisive.

    While I've no time for organised religion myself, least of all Islam, having worked and holidayed in a number of Muslim majority countries over the years I'd say most of the Muslims I've met tend to be friendly and generous spirited. In terms of religious zeal I'd say they'd be similar the rural Catholics in Ireland in the 60s and 70s. As for abandoning religion, lots of Muslims in the UK have and continue to do so. The equivalent of the 'a-la-carte Catholic' over here would be the 'pork pie Muslim'. I know plenty of them.

    I've lived and worked with Muslims for many year's, in country's which were 100% Islamic, or were predominantly Islamic, but shared with other religion's, and in Country's which had a small Islamic presence. To this day, most of my friends are Muslim. So, I can say that I have some experience with Islam. Generally, the further you get from the center ( for Sunni's, its Saudi ) the more relaxed it becomes. So while people may leave Islam in England, its not so easy to leave ( in fact impossible ) the nearer you get to the center's. I know full well what happened to a Muslim family that I know in a strict Islamic Country,who did leave. It was not pleasant either. Even in the UK, ex Muslims can be disowned by their families, and "shunned" by the Muslim community. Suicide is not unknown.
    Also the further away from the center, the more "Western" they become, IE in matters of dress, and having a drink ( I've had many a good night drinking with some of them). In general, the majority of Muslims I have met, are more concerned with the same day to day problems that beset everyone, regardless of religion. Finding a place to live, getting a good education, job etc. are their priorities. Terrorism is not high on their agenda, except maybe to avoid it.
    To make the comparison between "Irish Terrorists" and the perception that all Irish were terrorists, with Islamic terrorism is not correct. The "Irish Terrorism" or as it was better known, "The Troubles". had a beginning and an ending. It finished with the Good Friday Agreement., and so now it is historic.
    Islam, on the other is a very different story. 1'400 years ago, Mohammad composed the Quran, and word for word, it cannot be changed. It's this very same Quran that isis and other's use to justify the violence and terror they unleash on the world. After any such act of extreme violence there is always massive condemnation by everyone, including Muslims. ( who in the main, suffer the most from "Islamic Terrorism" yesterday's attack in a maternity Hospital in Kabul comes to mind ) But isis can and do hold up a copy of the Quran, and can point out the relevant page which they claim justify's their action. The thousands of Muslims who rushed to join their Calipate, shows how they are perceived .So any similarity between "Irish or other Terrorism's" ends right there.
    The Irish troubles, had a beginning and an end. Until Muslims find a way to interpret the Quran differently, it will remain open to abuse. And this should be openly discussed with Muslims, at every level.




  • jmreire wrote: »
    Until Muslims find a way to interpret the Quran differently, it will remain open to abuse. And this should be openly discussed with Muslims, at every level.

    As you pointed out,most victims of ISIS are Muslim so Muslims do already interpret the Quran differently. If all Muslims interpreted the Quran as ISIS did, we'd all be swimming in blood.

    Conversations about how best to interpret the Quran are best had among Muslims,in my view.Non-Muslims, particularly Westerners are seeing as carrying all sorts of historical baggage,and are too easily dismissed as hypocritical.Also,we run the risk of exposing the fact that we all too often don't know what we're talking about.The best thing we can do is to offer quiet support to those progressive forces within Islam,and to stop doing the bidding of Saudi Arabia and it's friends.


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  • As you pointed out,most victims of ISIS are Muslim so Muslims do already interpret the Quran differently. If all Muslims interpreted the Quran as ISIS did, we'd all be swimming in blood.

    Conversations about how best to interpret the Quran are best had among Muslims,in my view.Non-Muslims, particularly Westerners are seeing as carrying all sorts of historical baggage,and are too easily dismissed as hypocritical.Also,we run the risk of exposing the fact that we all too often don't know what we're talking about.The best thing we can do is to offer quiet support to those progressive forces within Islam,and to stop doing the bidding of Saudi Arabia and it's friends.

    If every Muslim took the same version of the Quran as isis /taleban, then ww3 would have been fought and ended a long time ago. I have never suggested that non-Muslims should have any say in any interpretation of the Quran, or any adaptation of it. If this is to come about at all, it will have to come from within Islam itself.
    Concerning the "Historical Baggage" you mention, IE:- "The New Crusaders". The vast majority of Muslims I have interacted with are full aware of the history, and know very well the difference between the past and the present. The one's who I did meet who had this mindset, were largely in remote villages whose only experience / education came from an Imam, who may never have even traveled on a plane. And regarding the point you make about westerners not understanding Islam, thats a two way street. Personally, I have corrected quite a lot of mis-conception's regarding the west, in discussions with Muslim colleagues. Just as they have taught me how to behave in Islamic Society while in their Country.
    No matter what your view's are, the bottom line is the problem of radical Islam has to be tackled, and I fully realize what a problem that will be, given the context.


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