Ebay Cable

What would you do?





Job on hold because nobody's willing to admit culpability.


I've cable temperatures of 50°C at 70% design load with an insulation upper rating of 70°C

Cable supplier ran out of helpful remarks after competency accusations were shown to be unfounded.





~20kg cable + consumables + 2 days labour (started job with stoopid imperial AWG lugs I was trying to get rid of...:rolleyes:)

Every, single core cable in job is one gauge size under.


I've verified the complaint with ID, OD, resistance per meter & thermal runaway.


I did spec overhead...I've now got none and the voltage drop is shockin'.


I asked the supplier for a datasheet, I got a spreadsheet that even says it's ½ size under benchmark when you multiply the ID by pi.
Their printed spec. isn't meeting spec, the cable isn't meeting printed spec!!! ...


They told me to ask a qualified sparks...:pac:
I asked them which qualification would they suggest.
ELV, mobile application, any sparks will ask for datasheet with a current rating on it...:rolleyes:
Radio silence..



Apparently the same cable is fitted in ambulances and fire service vehicles but I'm the first to mention it.

alta stare

What would I do? Well I for one would not buy cable off eBay.

colm_mcm

At least you won’t have to install heating.

2011

Apologies in advance if I have this wrong, did you ask someone on EBay to size your cabling?
Or did you specify the cable sizes and they sold you smaller than you requested?

What would I do? I have been in similar situations before, sometimes it was my fault, other times not. I would realize that it will cost me in time and materials so it is all about damage limitation now. I would explore options such as the installation of parallel conductors for every undersized circuit / section of cabling. For example if one section should be 25sq. but a 16sq. has been installed I would consider installing a 2nd 16sq. in parallel. I would ask that the supplier meets you half way with regards to supplying the additional cable at a loss. This will still hurt, but not as much. Any other approach is likely to work out worse for you.

The other thing I would do is try to learn from it

autumnalcore

Claim through paypal, item not as described if its undersized.

As for suggestion to not buy cable on ebay, large multistrand stuff like that is hard to come locally by in a lot of parts of Ireland and usually exorbitantly expensive. Theres also a good chance bricks and mortar places are selling the same ****e "Its got a CE mark". Welding cable from the local coop is about the closest thing to value you'll get if they have the size you want.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

For example if one section should be 25sq. but a 16sq. has been installed I would consider installing a 2nd 16sq. in parallel.

Making sure both lugs are under the one bolt imo.

2011

autumnalcore wrote: »

Claim through paypal, item not as described if its undersized.

Yes, that should work if for example an item was described as a "25 mm sq. copper conductor" and a "16 mm sq. copper conductor" was supplied instead.
It may get a bit messy if the cable supplier was expected to carry out cable sizing calculations. This part of Liam's post is unclear to me.

As for suggestion to not buy cable on ebay, large multistrand stuff like that is hard to come locally by in a lot of parts of Ireland and usually exorbitantly expensive.

I have never experienced this issue myself. Personally I would not purchase cable on Ebay under any circumstances. My main concern would be in terms of CPR compliance and the requirements documentation requirements that go with this. Also there are well documented accounts of substandard copper being used in cabling from dubious sources being sold over the years to unsuspecting electricians resulting in all sorts of issues.

That is just my opinion, each to their own

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

It may get a bit messy if the cable supplier was expected to carry out cable sizing calculations. This part of Liam's post is unclear to me.

Looks like the cable labeled 25 square is fitting into 16 square lugs, 35 into 25 as well.

Maybe the lugs are from ebay too:eek:

Lugs are genuine. Cable is not.
Interesting, comments thanks.

So the concensus is that if one buys from Ebay one should not expect quality/to get what one pays for?

I can't help but look at it as a criminal attack on industry, reputation and shameful behaviour.

How many installers bought lugs from the same supplier, didn't notice and now the fuse in that vehicle doesn't protect the cable?

Not my concern?

I do not run parallel conductors, I have no love for ring mains. Size up or fuse down.

2011

2011 wrote: »

It may get a bit messy if the cable supplier was expected to carry out cable sizing calculations.

Cable supplier's supplier is asking me how to calculate resistance (a week ago), CSA and wondering why I'd like to know the current carrying capability.

2011

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

So the concensus is that if one buys from Ebay one should not expect quality/to get what one pays for?

There are certain things that I would buy from Ebay and certain things I wouldn't. LV cabling falls into the latter category for me.

Since the Grenfell Towers disaster issues with how burning cable insulation can impede fire fighters has been taken very seriously. Although CPR compliance has been a legal requirement for 3 years (see EN 50575) many seem to be unaware. There are stockpiles of non-complaint cable that various people have been trying to offload for quite sometime now. I would suspect that some may use Ebay to do this.

I am sure you have heard about the cheap cabling that originated from eastern block countries that used very low grade copper a number of years ago.

I do not run parallel conductors, I have no love for ring mains. Size up or fuse down.

That is your choice, I was only making a suggestion. I would argue that parallel conductors result in an upsized conductor. Paralleling conductors is a very common practice, in many cases there is no practical alternative (such as the secondary side of transformers as cable sizes get too large otherwise).

I'm still not sure whether you wanted the supplier to size the cables or not Perhaps you could clarify.

Cable supplier's supplier is asking me how to calculate resistance (a week ago)

In my experience many people that sell cabling and electrical accessories frequently have little or no technical understanding (there are exceptions). It is not a place that I would go for technical advice to be honest.

I would only direct technical design calculations (regardless of how basic) at those that I know have the required training / qualifications / experience.

2011

2011 wrote: »

That is your choice, I was only making a suggestion. I would argue that parallel conductors result in an upsized conductor. Paralleling conductors is a very common practice, in many cases there is no practical alternative (such as the secondary side of transformers as cable sizes get too large otherwise).

What's good enough for houses and power suppliers is not good enough for vehicles. imo.


I do not splice cable.
I do not run parallels.
I do not use chocy pots blocks.


I'm not saying it's wrong to do so, but it's a compromise I won't make.

2011 wrote: »

I'm still not sure whether you wanted the supplier to size the cables or not Perhaps you could clarify.

The manufacturer wrote 10mm² on 8.5mm², 25mm² on 16mm², 35mm² on 25mm² etc.

2011 wrote: »

In my experience many people that sell cabling and electrical accessories frequently have little or no technical understanding (there are exceptions). It is not a place that I would go for technical advice to be honest.

I can't buy any of the following that met specification from a motor factors, I have alternative industrial suppliers.


Batteries.
Relays (as we've previously discussed)
DC disconnects & Isolators.
Circuit breakers.
High ampacity fuses (overheat).
Chargers.
Charge controllers.
DC-DC converters.
12V Solar panels.
Inverters.
LED lighting.


Now adding cable to the list. :rolleyes:


I'm building 200A peak nominal systems here and anything I use from a motor factors is setting fire. :mad:

2011 wrote: »

I would only direct technical design calculations (regardless of how basic) at those that I know have the required training / qualifications / experience.

No kidding.

2011

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

What's good enough for houses and power suppliers is not good enough for vehicles. imo.

I had no idea you were wiring a vehicle.
I saw nothing in your posts to indicate this.

I do not splice cable.
I do not run parallels.
I do not use chocy pots blocks.

Cool. You asked for a suggestion, I gave you one.

The manufacturer wrote 10mm² on 8.5mm², 25mm² on 16mm², 35mm² on 25mm²

Ok, now I understand. That is unacceptable.

I take it you didn't you ask the supplier to size the cables?

Now adding cable to the list. :rolleyes:

Out of interest what is wrong with tri rated panel flex??
I'm sure that was a stupid question, but I had to ask.

I'm building 200A peak nominal systems here and anything I use from a motor factors is setting fire.

That would not surprise me.

Loozer

What's the problem

Is it bad copper ,poor conductivity?

You have to be careful where u buy cable , I've been caught before with it

Bruthal

Loozer wrote: »

What's the problem

Is it bad copper ,poor conductivity?

You have to be careful where u buy cable , I've been caught before with it

Sold as 35 is somewhere nearer 25, 25 is 16 etc.

Loozer

Bruthal wrote: »

Sold as 35 is somewhere nearer 25, 25 is 16 etc.

Ok I didn't read it all

Only buy cable from approved suppliers

2011

2011 wrote: »

I had no idea you were wiring a vehicle.
I saw nothing in your posts to indicate this.

Sorry 2011. Assume it to be so...always. Us cowboys live in the Wild West.;)

2011 wrote: »

Cool. You asked for a suggestion, I gave you one.

I'm not giving out. Thanks.

2011 wrote: »

Ok, now I understand. That is unacceptable.

Agreed

2011 wrote: »

I take it you didn't you ask the supplier to size the cables?

:pac::pac: Ah no. My design. My spec.

2011 wrote: »

Out of interest what is wrong with tri rated panel flex??

Can't buy it at a motor factors. That would fall under an industrial supplier.

2011 wrote: »

That would not surprise me.

Still has 200A written on it.
Wanna see what 200A fuses do at 170A continuous current?

Bruthal wrote: »

Sold as 35 is somewhere nearer 25, 25 is 16 etc.

Every single core cable, not somewhere near.
Exactly one size under.

Bruthal

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Every single core cable, not somewhere near.
Exactly one size under.

Well, 25 is somewhere nearer 25 than 35:pac:

2011

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Sorry 2011.

No problem.

Can't buy it at a motor factors.

Why does that matter?

That would fall under an industrial supplier.

Why is that an issue?

Still has 200A written on it.

I can assure you that tri rated panel flex rated for 200A will take 200A all day and all night (and then some) without any issues.

autumnalcore

I would have been in the parallel conductor camp also until I did a spice analysis of a battery bank.

Minute differences in resistance can imbalance the bank, parallel conductors would complicate things further.

I supposed with a calibrated microohm meter and slotted bus bar you could tune the resistance of each leg to compensate.

Bruthal

autumnalcore wrote: »

I would have been in the parallel conductor camp also until I did a spice analysis of a battery bank.

Minute differences in resistance can imbalance the bank, parallel conductors would complicate things further.

I supposed with a calibrated microohm meter and slotted bus bar you could tune the resistance of each leg to compensate.

How will parallel cables have any big impact on battery balance? The cables that make up the bank itself you mean?

What is a cable only many in parallel copper strands.

Anyway paralleling flexes as small as this would only be an attempted money saver for this particular problem rather than a practical method.

2011

autumnalcore wrote: »

Minute differences in resistance can imbalance the bank, parallel conductors would complicate things further.

What do you mean by "imbalance the bank"?

remember in this case each conductor is one size smaller than it should be. So a cable that should be a 35 mm sq. is now installed as a 25 mm sq.
If we were to add a 2nd 25 mm sq. conductor in parallel even if the load split was 60% on one cable and 40% on the other (due to the resistance of each cable being different) it would not be an issue.

Paralleling of conductors is very common practice that can often be the only viable option.

2011

2011 wrote: »

Why does that matter?

Hard to source red conductors.
Emphasises the point their products aren't fit for porpoise.

2011 wrote: »

Why is that an issue?

It's not, we're just looking at track record. It's a good shout.
Hello? Eurosales!

2011 wrote: »

I can assure you that tri rated panel flex rated for 200A will take 200A all day and all night (and then some) without any issues.

So will 35mm² Thin Wall.

Parallel conductors aren't round so can of worms with drilled holes in chassis, contaminant ingress, conduit sizing, load sharing, messy install. If one leg drops all of a sudden the fuse is too big and the issue is unflagged. Ring main or radial debate. I'm in the "do it right" camp..sure it works until it doesn't.

2011 wrote: »

Paralleling of conductors is very common practice that can often be the only viable option.

It's the same amount of work to rip it out and reinstate proper job.

Bruthal wrote: »

Sold as 35 is somewhere nearer 25, 25 is 16 etc.

See attached "datasheet" will no compliance cert, or ampacity rating.
Now multiply the ID's by pi.


Then you can take my word for it the 25mm² is testing as ID 5.5mm and resistance of 0.11mΩ per meter and the 10mm² is testing 1.8mΩ per meter

Bruthal

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Now multiply the ID's by pi.

What will that show me?

Bruthal

Bruthal wrote: »

What will that show me?

CSA

That it's over-rated underspec, undersized and still lying before accounting for it being stranded not solid core.


The 35mm² branded cable is exactly 25mm² for instance.

Insulation thickness is 2mm not 1.25mm.

Bruthal

I know, I was just sort of thinking pi x ID is the circumference for some reason.

Did I mention fitters are installing this shyte in ambulances and fire service vehicles?...Sure they're probably overspec-ed until the cows come home...doesn't make it right.

2011

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Hard to source red conductors.
Emphasises the point their products aren't fit for porpoise.

I didn't have a problem when I had to source red tri rated panel flex (as it is a phase color in Canada and we were building a panel for Canada in Ireland). It is easy to get.
Here is a link to some.

It's not, we're just looking at track record. It's a good shout.

There you go.

So will 35mm² Thin Wall.

Yes, but it doesn't seem to be working out for you, hence the suggested alternative that has an excellent track record and is good at 105 DegC.

Parallel conductors aren't round so can of worms with drilled holes in chassis, contaminant ingress, conduit sizing, load sharing, messy install. If one leg drops all of a sudden the fuse is too big and the issue is unflagged. Ring main or radial debate. I'm in the "do it right" camp..sure it works until it doesn't.

Understood, I am no longer pushing that idea as you don't like it.
Tri rated panel flex of the correct size is round and can take 200A without the need for paralleling.

It's the same amount of work to rip it out and reinstate proper job.

My comment (this time) was not directed at you, I was quoting another poster.

My initial suggestion to do this (that I have given up on) was based on the fact that the replacement cable would cost less (as it is one size smaller) that starting again with the correct (and therefore larger) cable size.

Bruthal

Everything in life is becoming a mess. 16 square is the new 25 square
Construction sites are outdoor jobs now, safe from the black death:pac:
And 25 square is the new 35 square.

Bruthal

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

CSA

That it's over-rated underspec, undersized and still lying before accounting for it being stranded not solid core.


The 35mm² branded cable is exactly 25mm² for instance.

Insulation thickness is 2mm not 1.25mm.

pi x diameter is circumference.

Let me direct the thread back to the original question Gentlemen because I've a bee in my bonnet!

"What would you do?"

Bruthal

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

CSA = pi * (radius x 2)

Not radius x 2, radius x radius

Oh bottom!...:o

OK 25mm² Ebay jank is 24mm² not accounting for the air inside and smaller than my electrical wholesaler 25mm² and resistance checking as 16mm²

2011

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

"What would you do?"

Suggestion #1 is in my first post on this thread: Parallel conductor + avoid Ebay for cable.

Suggestion #2 is in my last post on this thread: Start again. No paralleling, go with tri rated panel flex from a reputable source. This is available in red and will work up to 105 DegC which exceeds your requirements.

Bruthal

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

OK 25mm² Ebay jank is 24mm² not accounting for the air inside and smaller than my electrical wholesaler 25mm² and resistance checking as 16mm²

I presume you checked resistance of length of confirmed 25² too.

Loozer

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Did I mention fitters are installing this shyte in ambulances and fire service vehicles?...Sure they're probably overspec-ed until the cows come home...doesn't make it right.

They're buying the cable off eBay?

2011

2011 wrote: »

Suggestion #1 is in my first post on this thread: Parallel conductor + avoid Ebay for cable.

Suggestion #2 is in my last post on this thread: Start again. No paralleling, go with tri rated panel flex from a reputable source. This is available in red and will work up to 105 DegC which exceeds your requirements.

And just let the suppliers away with it?

Bruthal wrote: »

I presume you checked resistance of length of confirmed 25² too.

Nope. Notice only one side of that fuse holder melted!
There's no way I can get Elandflex in the wrong sized lug.

2011

Just to add:
Fine stranded cables such as those pictured take different (smaller) lug sizes that cables with "standard" heavier strands. It is best to use lugs that are specifically designed for fine strands so as to ensure a proper fit and descent connection.

It is normal to find that a 25 mm lug will fit snugly onto a 25mm sq. cable but will be too large on a 25 mm sq. fine stranded panel flex type cable. The smaller strands result in a smaller overall diameter conductor.

Bruthal

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

And just let the suppliers away with it?





Voltage drop tested 1m @ 150A with Fluke 87V

Yes i was actually posting to test 10 meters with 100 amps and volt drop but didnt post it.

Loozer

Loozer wrote: »

They're buying the cable off eBay?

Seller's claimed technical rebuttal.

2011

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

And just let the suppliers away with it?

I didn't comment on that. There is nothing to stop you pursuing a refund in parallel with finishing the project for your customer.

However I think you are unlikely to win regardless of where the blame lies.

Loozer

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Seller's claimed technical rebuttal.

You mean they said it?

Bruthal

Bruthal wrote: »

Yes i was actually posting to test 10 meters with 100 amps and volt drop but didnt post it.

Post self-destructed.

I haven't tested the good stuff, I chopped up all my stock trying to figure out why the fuse-holders were self-combusting under rated load ("500A").

Loozer wrote: »

You mean they said it?

Yes. "Thousands of meters a month."

Loozer

I wired up a load of.houses one time with bad bell wire

Wouldn't.fire up the chimes and the resistance was high

Lesson learned even though I had bought it from a wholesaler

Loozer

There was a scandal too with the T+E about 10-15 years ago, bad cable I think sourced by reputable ?wholesalers through turkey

Bruthal

Loozer wrote: »

There was a scandal too with the T+E about 10-15 years ago, bad cable I think sourced by reputable ?wholesalers through turkey

Yes there was. Price of copper causing a bit of shaving of sizes.

Loozer

Bruthal wrote: »

Yes there was. Price of copper causing a bit of shaving of sizes.

I thought it was the purity of the copper , can't remember exactly

Wholesalers are not immune from it, the more established and reputable are less risky to buy from

2011

Loozer wrote: »

I thought it was the purity of the copper , can't remember exactly

That’s how I remember it. I referred to this in an earlier post.

Wholesalers are not immune from it, the more established and reputable are less risky to buy from

Not immune but you have recourse if it goes pear shaped.

Bruthal

What result did the 1 meter of 25 cable give with 150 amps on it?
10 meters would obviously be better.