Should city centres be pedestrianised and the space given to restaurants and bars?

Harpon

Was reading how the Lithuanian capital is doing this and giving the space to bars, restaurants and cafes to allow them to set up outdoor tables to allow social distancing. I know many will object as it’s their god given right to drive a diesel spewing SUV through a city centre, but I think it sounds like a great idea, and would be the only way I would consider visiting one of these places in the next few months at least.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/lithuanian-capital-to-be-turned-into-vast-open-air-cafe-vilnius

vandriver

Set the tone for a balanced debate fail.

Harpon

vandriver wrote: »

Set the tone for a balanced debate fail.

There hasn’t been a balanced debate in the history of boards

vandriver

Harpon wrote: »

There hasn’t been a balanced debate in the history of boards

You're upholding a fine tradition then.

suicide_circus

the trouble is not the SUV drivers in this case, it's the hoards of brass monkeys that have been deprived of begging money for a month that would be all over you if you tried to have a meal outside in the city centre.

Thelonious Monk

Yes I have been delighted to see new bike lanes have opened up in the city centre, going under the radar to avoid the usual ire from entitled car drivers. There's a new contra-flow one that goes up to Kildare St from Merrion Square, and they've taken the parking spaces off some of the South Quays to put in a cycle lane.
There are streets like Capel St and South William St which have mostly bars and restaurants, yet have parking on both sides of the street and no room for pedestrians. Getting the parking out of there would be easy wins.

drake70

suicide_circus wrote: »

the trouble is not the SUV drivers in this case, it's the hoards of brass monkeys that have been deprived of begging money for a month that would be all over you if you tried to have a meal outside in the city centre.

+1

Was about to post similar

Calhoun

Harpon wrote: »

Was reading how the Lithuanian capital is doing this and giving the space to bars, restaurants and cafes to allow them to set up outdoor tables to allow social distancing. I know many will object as it’s their god given right to drive a diesel spewing SUV through a city centre, but I think it sounds like a great idea, and would be the only way I would consider visiting one of these places in the next few months at least.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/lithuanian-capital-to-be-turned-into-vast-open-air-cafe-vilnius

How would people get into the city centre safely? If you use public transport in any meaningful numbers then you will risk the spread.

Harpon wrote: »

There hasn’t been a balanced debate in the history of boards

Indeed along with allot of re-regs posting stuff to stir the pot.

Infini

The only traffic that should be in town is deliveries, public transport and those who have to be there at times when public transport is not an option tbh.

work

Harpon wrote: »

Was reading how the Lithuanian capital is doing this and giving the space to bars, restaurants and cafes to allow them to set up outdoor tables to allow social distancing. I know many will object as it’s their god given right to drive a diesel spewing SUV through a city centre, but I think it sounds like a great idea, and would be the only way I would consider visiting one of these places in the next few months at least.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/lithuanian-capital-to-be-turned-into-vast-open-air-cafe-vilnius

This is a fantastic approach. The tide is turning space for people , bye bye cars.

Harry Palmr

It's a grand idea with a flaw, the Irish summer is a very unreliable friend 9 years in 10. So it could work but only to a point. In Waterford where I live John Roberts square would be ideal. It's already a pedestrian zone with a link down to George's Court. The Apple Market is likewise pedestrians first. You could go from the quays at the Barronstrand to Apple Market with nary a road open with very little adaptation.

Harpon

Harry Palmr wrote: »

It's a grand idea with a flaw, the Irish summer is a very unreliable friend 9 years in 10. So it could work but only to a point. In Waterford where I live John Roberts square would be ideal. It's already a pedestrian zone with a link down to George's Court. The Apple Market is likewise pedestrians first. You could go from the quays at the Barronstrand to Apple Market with nary a road open with very little adaptation.

These businesses would be allowed to construct canopy’s, otherwise it would be pointless

Thelonious Monk

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/car-bans-and-pedestrianised-college-green-part-of-radical-covid-19-plan-to-re-open-dublin-1.4247910

This is great news, I can't believe it's happening, it took something like covid for DCC to get the finger out. These measures will be put in place for 12-18 months with some remaining permanently.

Harpon

Sounds great, hopefully the extent of their ambition is not just college green. The likes of Dawson street, baggot street, chapel street, south William street would all be great and really benefit from pedestrianisation. Cities should be for people not cars. You can’t have a nice meal or drink outside in Dublin without cars a metre or so away spewing diesel over you, the noise of them makes for a real unpleasant atmosphere too, hopefully there are some good things to come out of Covid19.

jippo nolan

But, how will I transport my Brown Thomas shopping bags Back to south County Dublin?

accensi0n

jippo nolan wrote: »

But, how will I transport my Brown Thomas shopping bags Back to south County Dublin?

Rickshaw.

corks finest

Harpon wrote: »

Was reading how the Lithuanian capital is doing this and giving the space to bars, restaurants and cafes to allow them to set up outdoor tables to allow social distancing. I know many will object as it’s their god given right to drive a diesel spewing SUV through a city centre, but I think it sounds like a great idea, and would be the only way I would consider visiting one of these places in the next few months at least.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/lithuanian-capital-to-be-turned-into-vast-open-air-cafe-vilnius

Never work here,no room,and inundated with smack heads

LoughNeagh2017

I don't venture into city centres, that is where hipsters, millennials and generation zoomer live.

drake70

jippo nolan wrote: »

But, how will I transport my Brown Thomas shopping bags Back to south County Dublin?

Get the "DORT"

Eric Cartman

Id rather SUV’s outside cafes and bars than hoards of junkies. Dublin isnt ready for more pedestrianised and open spaces, the boardwalk, the spire, christ church, garden of rememberance. We have too many problems with drink and heroin to in any way pull this off successfully.

Road traffic creates a level of safety that keeps people a lot safer than an open space with seating would.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/car-bans-and-pedestrianised-college-green-part-of-radical-covid-19-plan-to-re-open-dublin-1.4247910

This is great news, I can't believe it's happening, it took something like covid for DCC to get the finger out. These measures will be put in place for 12-18 months with some remaining permanently.

Disgraceful plans. Must be the first doff of the cap to these green ***** to get them into government.

Eric Cartman

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Disgraceful plans. Must be the first doff of the cap to these green ***** to get them into government.

“And cars restricted” having a guess at some of the locations that would be impacted, id say some of my clients on south william st, fade street etc.. will love being told “ohh i know youve a problem and its mid day and your dinner rush / bar only starts in a few hours but ive to wait till 8am tomorrow to get to you”

Harpon

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Id rather SUV’s outside cafes and bars than hoards of junkies. Dublin isnt ready for more pedestrianised and open spaces, the boardwalk, the spire, christ church, garden of rememberance. We have too many problems with drink and heroin to in any way pull this off successfully.

Road traffic creates a level of safety that keeps people a lot safer than an open space with seating would.

Road traffic kills thousands every year from air pollution alone.

As for problems with drink and heroin, how would these plans make an iota of difference there? They wouldn’t result in any more or less drink/heroin problems than their currently is. Heroin addicts congregate in areas near methadone clinics, you rarely if ever see any in other parts of the city.

Breezin

suicide_circus wrote: »

the trouble is not the SUV drivers in this case, it's the hoards of brass monkeys that have been deprived of begging money for a month that would be all over you if you tried to have a meal outside in the city centre.

False opposition. Can we not have no SUVs and no 'brass monkeys'. Win-win!

CageWager

I always found it mildly amusing when there was talk of pedestrianising College Green and all the bohemian types where talking about a “civic plaza” where they probably think people will recite poetry and discuss spirituality and drink coffee from fancy little cups. In reality it would be covered in fast food outlets, aggressive beggers, junkies, and pigeons.

Also, the weather is usually shíte.

AndrewJRenko

Eric Cartman wrote: »

“And cars restricted” having a guess at some of the locations that would be impacted, id say some of my clients on south william st, fade street etc.. will love being told “ohh i know youve a problem and its mid day and your dinner rush / bar only starts in a few hours but ive to wait till 8am tomorrow to get to you”

If only they had ordered enough or you had delivered enough in the first place?

conorhal

It's a nice idea, but one that flies in the face of reality, there's a reason Ireland has a pub culture rather then a cafe culture, there's really only 3 or 4 weeks a year you'd want to sit outside in our mercurial, Atlantic island weather systems (except perhaps this summer, feckin' typical!).

timmy_mallet

Harpon wrote: »

Was reading how the Lithuanian capital is doing this and giving the space to bars, restaurants and cafes to allow them to set up outdoor tables to allow social distancing. I know many will object as it’s their god given right to drive a diesel spewing SUV through a city centre, but I think it sounds like a great idea, and would be the only way I would consider visiting one of these places in the next few months at least.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/lithuanian-capital-to-be-turned-into-vast-open-air-cafe-vilnius

Should have happened long ago, regardless of COVID-19.

But George Hook et al. need to drive across town to pick up their new TV in Arnotts.

wakka12

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Id rather SUV’s outside cafes and bars than hoards of junkies. Dublin isnt ready for more pedestrianised and open spaces, the boardwalk, the spire, christ church, garden of rememberance. We have too many problems with drink and heroin to in any way pull this off successfully.

Road traffic creates a level of safety that keeps people a lot safer than an open space with seating would.

They are different. Yes some public spaces are ruined by junkies but many of these proposals will be maintained by private business owners who wont tolerate junkies ruining their business

And regarding the weather, it is completely overexaggerated how much it rains in Dublin at least. The number of days where it is so rainy that you couldnt sit outside are very small. As for general just cloudy cool weather which is our typical day, it is fine, people adapt, many cafes across the city have extremely popular outdoor terraces year round despite the weather not being ideal. People simply enjoy being outdoors, doesnt have to be under a mediterranean sun.

Harry Palmr

Eric Cartman's plan is actually to run over junkies and drunks in SUV's I think, a sort of Death Race 2000 for the middle classes

Harry Palmr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

It's a grand idea with a flaw, the Irish summer is a very unreliable friend 9 years in 10. So it could work but only to a point. In Waterford where I live John Roberts square would be ideal. It's already a pedestrian zone with a link down to George's Court. The Apple Market is likewise pedestrians first. You could go from the quays at the Barronstrand to Apple Market with nary a road open with very little adaptation.

You might think so, but I would recommend a trip down Quay street in galway where a fair few of the bars, restaurants and cafes have outdoor seating and its full with patrons most of the time. Only thing that puts some off is when it rains and even then a lot of places have awnings that provide cover.

I've strolled down there on the coldest and wettest days and observed a lot of outdoor seating being used.

Harry Palmr

To be fair on the west coast you have to be born with dampproofing! The weather is appalling to this Waterfordian.

jippo nolan

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Eric Cartman's plan is actually to run over junkies and drunks in SUV's I think, a sort of Death Race 2000 for the middle classes

Sounds like a plan!

Beechwoodspark

CageWager wrote: »

I always found it mildly amusing when there was talk of pedestrianising College Green and all the bohemian types where talking about a “civic plaza” where they probably think people will recite poetry and discuss spirituality and drink coffee from fancy little cups. In reality it would be covered in fast food outlets, aggressive beggers, junkies, and pigeons.

Also, the weather is usually shíte.

Totally. Tapping central.

andekwarhola

jippo nolan wrote: »

But, how will I transport my Brown Thomas shopping bags Back to south County Dublin?

On your shoulders, once you remove the plank-sized chips.

Thelonious Monk

They've put up a few protected cycle lanes with wands and orcas over the last few days. Longest stretch is on the North Quays, and over at Westland Row and Nassau St.
Hopefully safer cycling and less room for cars, leads to more people ditching the car and walking or cycling.
I love how any talk of this kind of thing is met with such disgust by people who don't even live in Dublin.

jippo nolan

andekwarhola wrote: »

On your shoulders, once you remove the plank-sized chips.

Sarcasm?

Fred Cryton

Harpon wrote: »

Was reading how the Lithuanian capital is doing this and giving the space to bars, restaurants and cafes to allow them to set up outdoor tables to allow social distancing. I know many will object as it’s their god given right to drive a diesel spewing SUV through a city centre, but I think it sounds like a great idea, and would be the only way I would consider visiting one of these places in the next few months at least.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/lithuanian-capital-to-be-turned-into-vast-open-air-cafe-vilnius

No - the local beggers and other characters would make it impossible.


Plus the Irish weather. Not so much the rain and the cold. It's the constant wind that would be a killer.


Works on the continent because of the better weather and also because the undesirables are usually located on the outskirts of the city, not the centre.

Thelonious Monk

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No - the local beggers and other characters would make it impossible.


Plus the Irish weather. Not so much the rain and the cold. It's the constant wind that would be a killer.


Works on the continent because of the better weather and also because the undesirables are usually located on the outskirts of the city, not the centre.

Regardless of the weather we'll still have lots of people walking and cycling everywhere, so we need less private cars in the city. Anyway I've been commuting by bicycle in Dublin for 20 odd years and you probably get soaked less than 10 times a year if you're cycling in and out every day.

TheBoyConor

Grand pedestrianizing areas but all pedestrian areas should still only be a very short walk from places where there is vehicular access. If pedestrianisation covers too much of a contiguous area then how are the mobility impaired, wheelchair users, parents with buggies, the frail and elderly going to access premises well inside the pedestrian areas. To maintain accessibility for those who are not as able bodied as the rest of us, you'd need to make sure that the areas adjoining the pedestrian areas are provided with an increased amount of disabled parking and mother and child spaces.
You also need to mind that a lot of shoppers will be carrying stuff, possibly heavy or bulky items, back to their cars - if the parking areas are too far away from the pedestrianised areas it'll hurt footfall to those shops and so those shops may be opposed to pedestrianisation. You also need to make adequate provision for deliveries to shops and so on. Will access for public transport and taxis be maintained in order to bring people into and out of the area?

Careful thought needs to go into any pedestrianisation plans. You can't just block off a place and say "that's it now, pedestrians only, no more cars".

People and goods need to be facilitated to come and go to the pedestrian area, with an emphasis placed on those who may not be in a position to walk several hundred meters or more to get to it because of carrying loads or because of disability. This could be catered for by carefully selecting the areas to be pedestrianised, and allocating adequate regular/disabled parking, loading/set down space on the periphery of the area and perhaps on one or two shared spaces with pedestrian priority within the ped zone.

At the end of the day if you create a big pedestrian zone, in an ill thought out hap hazard manner that makes it more difficult for people to access the facilities and shops there, you are going to come up against resistance from businesses, traders groups, disability access groups.

I'm all for pedestrianisation but only where it is in an appropriate areas and where there is a well though out design to it and that any possible negative impacts are spotted and designed out or minimised as much as possible.

wakka12

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Grand pedestrianizing areas but all pedestrian areas should still only be a very short walk from places where there is vehicular access. If pedestrianisation covers too much of a contiguous area then how are the mobility impaired, wheelchair users, parents with buggies, the frail and elderly going to access premises well inside the pedestrian areas. To maintain accessibility for those who are not as able bodied as the rest of us, you'd need to make sure that the areas adjoining the pedestrian areas are provided with an increased amount of disabled parking and mother and child spaces.
You also need to mind that a lot of shoppers will be carrying stuff, possibly heavy or bulky items, back to their cars - if the parking areas are too far away from the pedestrianised areas it'll hurt footfall to those shops and so those shops may be opposed to pedestrianisation. You also need to make adequate provision for deliveries to shops and so on. Will access for public transport and taxis be maintained in order to bring people into and out of the area?

Careful thought needs to go into any pedestrianisation plans. You can't just block off a place and say "that's it now, pedestrians only, no more cars".

People and goods need to be facilitated to come and go to the pedestrian area, with an emphasis placed on those who may not be in a position to walk several hundred meters or more to get to it because of carrying loads or because of disability. This could be catered for by carefully selecting the areas to be pedestrianised, and allocating adequate regular/disabled parking, loading/set down space on the periphery of the area and perhaps on one or two shared spaces with pedestrian priority within the ped zone.

At the end of the day if you create a big pedestrian zone, in an ill thought out hap hazard manner that makes it more difficult for people to access the facilities and shops there, you are going to come up against resistance from businesses, traders groups, disability access groups.

I'm all for pedestrianisation but only where it is in an appropriate areas and where there is a well though out design to it and that any possible negative impacts are spotted and designed out or minimised as much as possible.

Your points are valid but at the same time you'd have to wonder how those demographics survive in entirely pedestrianised city centres of southern European cities? And I'm not just talking about the touristic ones, there are numerous examples of cities in that region with very little tourism that are entirely pedestrian. These cities also have much older populations than Dublin as well as that. Perhaps the struggles those demographics would encounter in a pedestrian space are overexaggerated.

I think people will adjust to what is in reality very minor issues.Carrying heavy goods, seriously? Nobody buys heavy goods in the city centre. And if they do, get a friend to carry it with you and get over it. I'd prefer a few more pedestrian zones that arent worked out to functional perfection than most of the city being completely car dominated by default for fear of stepping on the toes of a single demographic that might take issue with it. Anyway, there are dozens of car routes that are positively awful experiences, for the disabled, for the elderly, shoppers , people with buggies, and everyone with eyes, ears, noses and normal human senses. Yet no mandate to improve the functionality or experience of these spaces. Why are pedestrian zones held to such a different and much higher standard of planning and design? They are expected to cause no possible problems in order to justify their existence yet many streetscapes in Dublin are are already as inhumane as they come

Thelonious Monk

Narrow footpaths, streets clogged with traffic, clutter on the pavements, cars parked on footpaths are the real obstacles for people with mobility issues not pedestrianised streets ffs

Fred Cryton

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Regardless of the weather we'll still have lots of people walking and cycling everywhere, so we need less private cars in the city. Anyway I've been commuting by bicycle in Dublin for 20 odd years and you probably get soaked less than 10 times a year if you're cycling in and out every day.

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

Phil.x

Fred Cryton wrote: »

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

Well the greens don't think outside of Dublin.

Thelonious Monk

Fred Cryton wrote: »

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

Ok then let them all drive to the city centre that'll work out well

Thelonious Monk

Phil.x wrote: »

Well the greens don't think outside of Dublin.

DCC brought in the recent changes not the Greens. It's about time they made some changes. If you choose to live in westmeath and work in Dublin it doesn't mean the city should ne designed to suit you.

wakka12

Fred Cryton wrote: »

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

He said less, not none. Obviously there is a lot of people commuting from areas far away from the city centre but they dont need to be able to drive all over the entire city centre either. A bit of balance, and that balance is currently very much weighted towards accomodating drivers

Pete_Cavan

Fred Cryton wrote: »

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

No, that's what public transport is for and to provide it effectively, it needs to be prioritised. Restricting cars helps with that too so I can only assume that you are fully supportive of these changes given your deep concern for the 500,000 people who live in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin?

Better Than Christ

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Id rather SUV’s outside cafes and bars than hoards of junkies. Dublin isnt ready for more pedestrianised and open spaces, the boardwalk, the spire, christ church, garden of rememberance. We have too many problems with drink and heroin to in any way pull this off successfully.

Road traffic creates a level of safety that keeps people a lot safer than an open space with seating would.

Entitled scum in their SUVs are a far bigger social problem in Dublin city than alcoholics or drug addicts. If the likes of you had your way, and people with addictions were all rounded up and thrown into the Liffey, you'd no doubt find some other equally spurious reason why Dublin isn't 'ready' for pedestrianisation and open spaces.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

I've strolled down there on the coldest and wettest days and observed a lot of outdoor seating being used.

"convert outdoor space to help bars and restaurants operate"

"But what about the weather?"

"obviously we'll cover the space in.............."

Better Than Christ

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Entitled scum in their SUVs are a far bigger social problem in Dublin city than alcoholics or drug addicts. If the likes of you had your way, and people with addictions were all rounded up and thrown into the Liffey, you'd no doubt find some other equally spurious reason why Dublin isn't 'ready' for pedestrianisation and open spaces.

Maybe not thrown into the Liffey but they need to be got out of the city before any wishy washy climate rubbish is focused on. A blight on the city and not one would be missed.