Oliver Plunkett St. is no longer a pedestrianised street.

User142

https://twitter.com/EnglishMarket/status/1253586976328073217

Even with absolutely feck all traffic in the city centre and ample free parking within a minute of the English Market, the city council has decided to give over a main pedestrian and cyclist area in our city to private motor cars.

In most cities, government is turning over space to pedestrians to allow them to social distance we have done the opposite.

The mind boggles.

ofcork

With a lot less cars around does it really matter?

j8wk2feszrnpao

ofcork wrote: »

With a lot less cars around does it really matter?

Does what matter? I don’t get the question.

ofcork

That its open to traffic a lot less cars/people around as very little open.

mikeym

I presume a lot of elderly people cant go into the City Centre over the virus and I never see many people on the 220 buses.

The English Market traders probably need all the business they can get.

robinbird

It does very much matter and is a very retrograde step. It is the complete opposite of what is being done around the world where local authorities are increasing the urban space available to pedestrians to facilitate social distancing.
In Cork they have seen it as an opportunity to increase the space available to vehicular traffic forcing pedestrians to huddle together on narrow footpaths. Ending the pedestrianisation of Oliver Plunkett Street is one of the worst decisions that has been made in a long time.

User142

Exactly there are far less cars. Space in the city is limited. Turning over more to them makes no sense. There's no traffic at all and plenty of parking about. Why dismantle a pedestrian zone?

Pedestrians need more space and cyclists need to keep out from the footpath to comply with the 2m.

It says a lot about the some people in the council that even when car traffic is extremely low they decide to turn over a pedestrian zone to cars..... Like why? Why can't we trial going the other way? There's a huge amount of people out walking and cycling right now.

j8wk2feszrnpao

ofcork wrote: »

That its open to traffic a lot less cars/people around as very little open.

Still don’t know what you are saying/asking.
Has something changed with the bollards?

robinbird

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Still don’t know what you are saying/asking.
Has something changed with the bollards?

All bollards permanently lowered to fully open street to vehicular traffic and to allow on street parking.

major interest

Nonsense decision, how does any perceived benefit of allowing traffic down the street outweigh the risks of forcing pedestrians closer together? Not to mind the fact that there is ample parking available in the city currently.

Itssoeasy

robinbird wrote: »

All bollards permanently lowered to fully open street to vehicular traffic and to allow on street parking.

How do we know they are permanently lowered ? Is it not logical that when all this ****e is over those bollards will be put back ?

robinbird

major interest wrote: »

Nonsense decision, how does any perceived benefit of allowing traffic down the street outweigh the risks of forcing pedestrians closer together? Not to mind the fact that there is ample parking available in the city currently.

It seems the traders told council management to open street so people could drive through street to Grand Parade or park on Oliver Plunkett Street itself and they did as they were told.

It has always been the position of commercial interests that cars bring business and the more cars they have in the city centre the more business for them.
Hence the free parking promotions also in place.
Social distancing considerations for pedestrians are not a consideration if they conflict with the demands of commercial interests.

opus

Noticed last week that Princes St was now a carpark & open for traffic during the day, didn't realise OP St was as well. The city council seem to be taking a contrarian route compared to most other cities when it comes to pedestrians & cyclists Witness the fisco that is access to Tramore Valley park if you need any more proof.

whisky_galore

It was never pedestrianised in the true sense.

Graham

from the tweet:

temporarily open Oliver Plunkett St to vehicles

j8wk2feszrnpao

robinbird wrote: »

All bollards permanently lowered to fully open street to vehicular traffic and to allow on street parking.

Ah, ok, didn’t know that. But as clarified, it’s a temporary measure. But as I can see, it’s become another opportunity for a boring pedestrian/bike/car tirade for some.

Black_Knight

Benefits the market, benefits restaurants doing take aways. The street is pretty empty anyways, so it's not exactly inconveniencing pedestrians.

Get over yourselves

the beer revolu

It's an extremely worrying affirmation of the mind set of those in charge - if in doubt, let cars drive there.
This is such a retrograde step.
And just wait for the clamour to keep it this way.
And people still haven't given up on getting the Pana ban reversed.
It's hard to see how we will ever have meaningful change with regard to transport in the city.

whisky_galore

Where are these hoards of pedestrians coming from anyhow?
Can someone post a pic of these masses?

User142

the beer revolu wrote: »

It's an extremely worrying affirmation of the mind set of those in charge - if in doubt, let cars drive there.
This is such a retrograde step.
And just wait for the clamour to keep it this way.
And people still haven't given up on getting the Pana ban reversed.
It's hard to see how we will ever have meaningful change with regard to transport in the city.

I agree. People were able to shop in the English Market when the street was a pedestrianized zone and now they can't? And because there is less traffic it makes sense to get rid of the OPS pedestrian area. Get a grip.

We should be building temporary infrastructure to allow for social distancing in the city when we try reboot the economy. To allow for people to queue for stores, walk about while keeping their distance. We should be getting all this ready so that.

If the city isn't perceived as safe when the restrictions are lifted, the suburban middle aged middle class that traders so desperately want aren't going to return.

If the free parking, lack of any real traffic and lovely dry weather isn't enough to get you to go the English Market you never were going to go. Introducing another 10 parking spaces and allowing you to drive on OPS isn't going to get you in.

Ludo

User142 wrote: »

We should be building temporary infrastructure to allow for social distancing in the city when we try reboot the economy. To allow for people to queue for stores, walk about while keeping their distance. We should be getting all this ready so that.

If the city isn't perceived as safe when the restrictions are lifted, the suburban middle aged middle class that traders so desperately want aren't going to return.

^^^THIS^^^

rebs23

User142 wrote: »

I agree. People were able to shop in the English Market when the street was a pedestrianized zone and now they can't? And because there is less traffic it makes sense to get rid of the OPS pedestrian area. Get a grip.

We should be building temporary infrastructure to allow for social distancing in the city when we try reboot the economy. To allow for people to queue for stores, walk about while keeping their distance. We should be getting all this ready so that.

If the city isn't perceived as safe when the restrictions are lifted, the suburban middle aged middle class that traders so desperately want aren't going to return.

If the free parking, lack of any real traffic and lovely dry weather isn't enough to get you to go the English Market you never were going to go. Introducing another 10 parking spaces and allowing you to drive on OPS isn't going to get you in.

Seriously spot on, big effort needed to introduce Standard Operating Procedures for all sorts of business around the city centre. Illustrate how the city can operate safely for the next few months so that we can all feel safe working, living, shopping and eating in our fabolous City Centre.
It's been a few weeks now since I have been in the centre but i really miss it, wandering around the market, stopping off for a coffee or a bit to eat, watching the world go by. It really is without a shadow of a doubt the best City Centre in Ireland, nothing compares elsewhere to whats on offer in terms of food, cafe's, pubs and cultural institutions right in the centre of the city. I miss it cocooned just outside the 2km range. I might chance it next weekend.

beer enigma

Can I just ask how many of you on this thread live with 2km to exercise in town.

I visit the market weekly to shop and hardly saw a soul on Oliver Plunkett Street on Saturday. The temporary reopening serves restaurants with takeaway options and the market. Q park on Grand Parade is closed so it's North main Street or Paul Street neither great for take away.

Given the 2km rules I don't see any problem with a temporary opening of it if it helps save businesses and jobs.

cc

I don't think people are thinking the city centre isn't an option unless I can drive up OPS, it's a red herring to make people think they are doing something positive with absolutely nothing to back it up.

For those that actually live in the city centre they now need to share narrow footpaths unessesarly. Cork is still caught in provincial town 1970s mentality when it comes to town planning.

hans aus dtschl

When Milan, Brighton, Paris, Madrid, Berlin and god knows how many other cities said "we should make more room for pedestrians and cyclists", Cork City Council thought "we should make more room for cars".

Anyone who has been keeping an eye on the council's attitude towards active travel over the past year or two sadly won't be surprised by this.
The people on the executive have little interest in active transport beyond ticking the boxes it is absolutely necessary for them to tick.

Black_Knight

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

When Milan, Brighton, Paris, Madrid, Berlin and god knows how many other cities said "we should make more room for pedestrians and cyclists", Cork City Council thought "we should make more room for cars".

Anyone who has been keeping an eye on the council's attitude towards active travel over the past year or two sadly won't be surprised by this.
The people on the executive have little interest in active transport beyond ticking the boxes it is absolutely necessary for them to tick.

Flip all pedestrians in town during the pandemic. Opening access up to cars allows more people to use the market/takeaways keeping businesses afloat. I go in every fortnight now to get our market shop, and there's flip all cars there also. It's so quiet, it's working perfectly as a shared space.

If they didn't open OPS for parking during the pandemic i'm sure ye'd all be complaining still.

namloc1980

Black_Knight wrote: »

Flip all pedestrians in town during the pandemic. Opening access up to cars allows more people to use the market/takeaways keeping businesses afloat. I go in every fortnight now to get our market shop, and there's flip all cars there also. It's so quiet, it's working perfectly as a shared space.

If they didn't open OPS for parking during the pandemic i'm sure ye'd all be complaining still.

So you're saying the pedestrianised OPS was keeping people away? Do you have anything at all to support this?

hans aus dtschl

Black_Knight wrote: »

Flip all pedestrians in town during the pandemic. Opening access up to cars allows more people to use the market/takeaways keeping businesses afloat. I go in every fortnight now to get our market shop, and there's flip all cars there also. It's so quiet, it's working perfectly as a shared space.

If they didn't open OPS for parking during the pandemic i'm sure ye'd all be complaining still.

I know I shouldn't but...

The entire concept - that all those other cities seemed to grasp - is that pedestrians now need more space in order to comply with social distance measures.
Cork allowed more cars in. but as you say yourself, there's few cars coming in. It obviously hasn't been an effective measure.

Cars don't have very much appetite for takeaways or market food. The council can (and will!) keep trying to entice cars in, but the penny will drop eventually, that people go shopping. And funnily enough, people don't like to dodge cars while doing that shopping. People don't like catching Covid 19 either. And by giving them less room than before, the City Council has made this part of the city slightly less attractive to pedestrians.

Would I be complaining "if they didn't open OPS for parking during the pandemic"....well, since I already complain that they didn't enact the pana traffic ban in full, I don't think I would, no.

Black_Knight

namloc1980 wrote: »

So you're saying the pedestrianised OPS was keeping people away? Do you have anything at all to support this?

I'm saying opening up OPS is allowing more people to the market/restaurants during these times.

Personally, i'm doing a big shop once every 2 weeks, and there's no way I could carry all that I get in that big market shop back to my house. I don't actually park or drive on OPS, but parking close to the market is certainly handy.

Multi-stories are closed, so there's less parking in town too.

I get in and out of town as quick as I can, the closer I can get to the market the better.

Black_Knight

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I know I shouldn't but...

The entire concept - that all those other cities seemed to grasp - is that pedestrians now need more space in order to comply with social distance measures.
Cork allowed more cars in. but as you say yourself, there's few cars coming in. It obviously hasn't been an effective measure.

Cars don't have very much appetite for takeaways or market food. The council can (and will!) keep trying to entice cars in, but the penny will drop eventually, that people go shopping. And funnily enough, people don't like to dodge cars while doing that shopping. People don't like catching Covid 19 either. And by giving them less room than before, the City Council has made this part of the city slightly less attractive to pedestrians.

If there was the same footfall as before the pandemic, sure, cars would make it harder to social distance, but there isn't. There's far less footfall. The odd car driving down OPS isn't going to force you to bump into anyone, at least this has been my experience of the 3 times i've gone in. It's only 1 perspective, but I think once i've waited about 3 seconds for a car to drive by so I could step off the path to avoid walking past a person.

TLDR; IMO, cars on OPS during the pandemic is a non-issue.

the beer revolu

Black_Knight wrote: »

If there was the same footfall as before the pandemic, sure, cars would make it harder to social distance, but there isn't. There's far less footfall. The odd car driving down OPS isn't going to force you to bump into anyone, at least this has been my experience of the 3 times i've gone in. It's only 1 perspective, but I think once i've waited about 3 seconds for a car to drive by so I could step off the path to avoid walking past a person.

TLDR; IMO, cars on OPS during the pandemic is a non-issue.

For me, it's not so much the physics of cars and pedestrians on OPS. It's the mindset of our powers that be that so easily and readily default to the idea that more cars in the city centre is a good thing.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

the beer revolu wrote: »

For me, it's not so much the physics of cars and pedestrians on OPS. It's the mindset of our powers that be that so easily and readily default to the idea that more cars in the city centre is a good thing.

And their inability to provide increased footpath space, cycling infrastructure among other things, even during a pandemic.

They still haven't reduced traffic on the Marina also.

Even Dublin City Council are doing better. Installing new cycle lanes and widening footpath space.

Other cities are miles ahead.

Black_Knight

the beer revolu wrote: »

For me, it's not so much the physics of cars and pedestrians on OPS. It's the mindset of our powers that be that so easily and readily default to the idea that more cars in the city centre is a good thing.

I see it as this. Footfall in the city center has dropped drastically because of covid 19. Lets say it's 10% of what it usually is. If allowing cars onto OPS to get better access to restaurants/markets etc adds even a few % more people into those businesses, isn't it a good thing?

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote:

And their inability to provide increased footpath space, cycling infrastructure among other things, even during a pandemic.

The "increased footpath space" isn't needed right now. There's loads of path space for the current restricted volume of pedestrians (from what i've observed). If it's needed in general, then that's a different matter. Right now, OPS is open because of Covid 19.

cc

Black_Knight wrote: »

I see it as this. Footfall in the city center has dropped drastically because of covid 19. Lets say it's 10% of what it usually is. If allowing cars onto OPS to get better access to restaurants/markets etc adds even a few % more people into those businesses, isn't it a good thing?


The "increased footpath space" isn't needed right now. There's loads of path space for the current restricted volume of pedestrians (from what i've observed). If it's needed in general, then that's a different matter. Right now, OPS is open because of Covid 19.

Sorry, the amount of space required for cars is what's not needed right now given the low volumes. There is plenty of space to park within a 2 min walk to the market. People mixing up economic arguments in place public health restrictions aren't compatible.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

The health risks that come with increased motor traffic in the city centre are proven and well known.

OPS is one of the only pedestrianised streets in the city (apart from Patrick's Street bus priority hours) - City Hall doing nothing for pedestrians, cyclists etc during a pandemic, while opening this street up to cars without any consultation, at the click of a button, shows they have very little backbone in terms of making Cork a nicer place for pedestrians and people to live & enjoy.

We're seeing what other cities are doing. This is a backwards step.

Some may not agree, but we can all agree that this is a car-centric move that puts the safety and comfort of pedestrians last on City Halls list of priorities. And it's shameful.

Black_Knight

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

The health risks that come with increased motor traffic in the city centre are proven and well known.

Increased motor traffic? Are you serious!?

I give up. Traffic is down, pedestrians are down. The change is temporary.

Totally agree outside of the pandemic, but right now it's only helpful.

User142

Would someone please inform the cars now using OPS that they are supposed to stop and buy something. Because all I'm seeing is people trying to shave a few minutes off their commute by making an illegal right turn at the end. I guess fair play for them respecting the car ban on Patrick St....

timmyjimmy

Black_Knight wrote: »

Increased motor traffic? Are you serious!?

I give up. Traffic is down, pedestrians are down. The change is temporary.

Totally agree outside of the pandemic, but right now it's only helpful.

If traffic is down, why do cars need OPS to drive down? Surely there's plenty of room elsewhere to park with less traffic in town. They manage without it during normal times. BTW, I live within 2km of the market and I've been going there quite regularly during the crisis. It's absolute bliss walking/cycling to town without cars around, the less of them in town, the better.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

User142 wrote: »

Would someone please inform the cars now using OPS that they are supposed to stop and buy something. Because all I'm seeing is people trying to shave a few minutes off their commute by making an illegal right turn at the end. I guess fair play for them respecting the car ban on Patrick St....

Yep. Even taxis use that illegal right turn.

It's mostly used as a rat run. Should be closed to thru traffic all day besides loading hours IMO.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Increased motor traffic? Are you serious!?

I give up. Traffic is down, pedestrians are down. The change is temporary.

Totally agree outside of the pandemic, but right now it's only helpful.

Yes. Of course there's increased motor traffic, on a street that should be pedestrianised (I.e. No traffic at all!).. Opening it just asks cars to use it as a rat run to cut through town and use the illegal right turn to get towards Washington Street, as already mentioned, and as I see with my own eyes on a daily basis.

I work in a premises on the street - very few stop, it's a rat run for the most part. Anyone who thinks it's improving English Market trade needs a reality check.

Poor form from Cork City Council, once again placing motorists ahead of pedestrians. It's arguably the nicest Street in the city and they've undone the best thing about it - calm, clean and no traffic barging past. Also now hard to social distance due to this.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess, as you obviously don't see any issue yourself.

I see it as just another backwards step from city management.

PreCocious

Black_Knight wrote: »

I see it as this. Footfall in the city center has dropped drastically because of covid 19. Lets say it's 10% of what it usually is. If allowing cars onto OPS to get better access to restaurants/markets etc adds even a few % more people into those businesses, isn't it a good thing?

So footfall has decreased and the solution is to provide less space for footfall ?

I drive into town every two weeks (a Tuesday lunchtime) for a market collection. I park in a traffic lane for the 5 mins it takes. It doesn't affect traffic. I have noticed that on my last trip the number of pedestrians had much increased. The number of cars seemed much the same.

The Council seem to respond to people with perceived power - the traders associations, the GAA, the vintners. They never seem to bat for the people who actually go into town and spend money.

robinbird

PreCocious wrote: »

So footfall has decreased and the solution is to provide less space for footfall ?

I drive into town every two weeks (a Tuesday lunchtime) for a market collection. I park in a traffic lane for the 5 mins it takes. It doesn't affect traffic. I have noticed that on my last trip the number of pedestrians had much increased. The number of cars seemed much the same.

The Council seem to respond to people with perceived power - the traders associations, the GAA, the vintners. They never seem to bat for the people who actually go into town and spend money.

I think that is the issue. It is the position of the commercial traders and the council that it is only those that come in to town in cars that spend money.
As well it is their position that commercial sales are the most important thing, the pedestrian non commercial experience is discounted as irrelevant as it does not generate profit. Now I believe this thinking is deeply flawed. Firstly there should be some focus on the city centre that isn't connected to spending money and materialism and secondly that if people come in to town because it is a pleasant experience they might also spend money.

That way of thinking is why the panaban failed. It was brought back but in name only as it was deliberately not enforced.

So when business was down because of the lockdown what they requested and got from the council was to end all pedestrianisation in the city centre, have free car promotions and allow cars park wherever they wanted. On the basis that that social distancing and a pleasant experience for city dwellers has to be disregarded if it in any way interferes with motorists that want to shop.

65535

The street should be covered over and used as a shopping district - it would be ideal to sit outside a café there in the rain !

namloc1980

Black_Knight wrote: »

I see it as this. Footfall in the city center has dropped drastically because of covid 19. Lets say it's 10% of what it usually is. If allowing cars onto OPS to get better access to restaurants/markets etc adds even a few % more people into those businesses, isn't it a good thing?.

Again I'll ask: your belief is that people are now driving in to town to shop etc, who otherwise wouldn't purely because OPS is open to them. Have you anything at all to support that belief?

opus

Someone needs to have a word with the Princes St traders that more cars is what they need as they don't seem to be onside with the council!

Business owners seek outdoor dining for Cork's Princes Street

j8wk2feszrnpao

robinbird wrote: »

It is the position of the commercial traders and the council that it is only those that come in to town in cars that spend money.
As well it is their position that commercial sales are the most important thing, the pedestrian non commercial experience is discounted as irrelevant as it does not generate profit.

A load of crap. Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking..... there’s been an effort to reduce car flow in the center.

Why do you need to resort to fiction to drive your ideology?

robinbird

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A load of crap. Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking..... there’s been an effort to reduce car flow in the center.

Why do you need to resort to fiction to drive your ideology?

Oh dear. One at a time.

Panaban was deliberately never enforced and now it has been abandoned altogether

Cycle lanes. The refusal of the council to take any action against car parking in cycle lanes has been a bone of contention for many years. As one example the main cycle lane between the city and the west on washington street has been used as a taxi rank every evening for years. Council and gardai have refused to take any action.

Dedicated bus lanes. Taxis are allowed drive in bus lanes. As well no action is taken against cars that use dedicated bus lanes. As an example the bus lane on Washington Street is meant to be reserved for buses and taxis for 3 hours out of every 20. Yet during those 3 hours the "dedicated" bus lane is full of private cars.


Free parking promotions and opening up all pedestrian streets to parking and for use as rat runs. How exactly is that reducing car flow?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A load of crap. Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking..... there’s been an effort to reduce car flow in the center.

Why do you need to resort to fiction to drive your ideology?

Limited cycle lanes in the city centre, abused by taxis and motorists on a daily basis, no safe direct connection to CIT with 12k students or most of the suburbs, none to the Northside.

7km of Bus lanes in the entire city.

South Mall basically a car park with no dedicated cycle or bus infrastructure. Angle parking taking up even more space.

The council are not trying whatsoever.

Delighted to see the calls from Princes St traders and Cork Chamber - the fact they have to do this, shows that City Hall seem to have no cop on or ambition whatsoever.

They'll see in years to come what their over-reliance on car traffic will cause.

Plenty of new city centre workplaces and housing on the way. The city cannot keep taking more and more cars.

They'll find this out soon, the hard way, mark my words. Congestion, congestion, congestion. Cork will grind to a halt, and pedestrians will go elsewhere.

j8wk2feszrnpao

robinbird wrote: »

Panaban was deliberately never enforced and now it has been abandoned altogether

We'd another tin foil hatter on here with that approach. Do you have proof of it never been enforced? I was rarely in the city, yet saw it being enforced on two occasions.

robinbird wrote: »

Free parking promotions and opening up all pedestrian streets to parking and for use as rat runs. How exactly is that reducing car flow?

Reducing car flow by implementing Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking. Not all have been perfect, and I was immediately critical of the council or having a ban without some type of system to enforce it. But they have been done, so not all car centered actions. Be ignorant of that if you wish. Just because you don't like it, there are people who use cars, they are consumers as well.

Opening OPT as a temporary measure, as already explained, isn't some major car centered plan. Just because the usual brigade get riled up, doesn't mean there is a conspiracy.

namloc1980

munstermagic11 wrote: »

We'd another tin foil hatter on here with that approach. Do you have proof of it never been enforced? I was rarely in the city, yet saw it being enforced on two occasions.


Reducing car flow by implementing Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking. Not all have been perfect, and I was immediately critical of the council or having a ban without some type of system to enforce it. But they have been done, so not all car centered actions. Be ignorant of that if you wish. Just because you don't like it, there are people who use cars, they are consumers as well.

Opening OPT as a temporary measure, as already explained, isn't some major car centered plan. Just because the usual brigade get riled up, doesn't mean there is a conspiracy.

The usual brigade? It's great to just put people into some box isn't it?!

I think the point here isn't just the opening of OPS, it's that the City Council default position is to cater for the private car and that speaks to their overall attitude. Other cities around the world are using this time to enhance public realm for active travel and mobility. Cork City Council default to the mindset of catering for the car. It's that overall mindset that hinders progress in Cork.

opus

I listened to this podcast recently, a very interesting look back at how the car companies got cities designed to suit them rather than the inhabitants. There's a chance to change this now with the advent of driverless cars but jury is out on whether or not this will happen.

The Fault in Our Cars

The first pedestrian killed by a car in the Western Hemisphere was on New York’s Upper West Side in 1899. One newspaper warned that “the automobile has tasted blood.” Today, driverless cars present their own mix of technological promise and potential danger. Can the reaction to that 1899 pedestrian tragedy help us navigate current arguments about safety, blame, commerce, and public space?